Mike Brown vs Lebron James

[KJ33]

I will add though that lots of players do this - how many times have we seen Doc in the huddle imploring the guys to "run the plays I call!"  There's a lot of freelancing in the NBA. 

I think this is slightly different.  Doc is usually imploring the whole team to "run our stuff", rather then get impatient and break the play off after the first option.  Not the same as a singular player going iso and not running the play at all.

[Fafnir]

This is a battle that the coach has no chance of winning.  

I agree that its a slap in the face to Brown and shows zero respect on behalf of James but, in today's NBA, the star player always wins these battles.  If he really wants to, Lebron can use this as serious leverage with his impending free agency.  "Get rid of Brown or see you later".

All the more reason to respect Doc and Pierce.  Doc really asked Paul to change his game and find his shot within Doc's offense when he first became the coach.  Things got tense for a bit, including Doc taking Paul out and Paul showing extreme displeasure on his face.  I guess you could make the case that Paul is not a "star player" but for the C's at the time, he was as close to a star that the C's had.  Now the two of them are almost always on the same page, and Paul's game has clearly gotten better under Doc's tutelage.

Pierce is certainly a star. He's been a top 20 NBA player for quite some time.

[Rondo_is_better]

This is a battle that the coach has no chance of winning.  

I agree that its a slap in the face to Brown and shows zero respect on behalf of James but, in today's NBA, the star player always wins these battles.  If he really wants to, Lebron can use this as serious leverage with his impending free agency.  "Get rid of Brown or see you later".

All the more reason to respect Doc and Pierce.  Doc really asked Paul to change his game and find his shot within Doc's offense when he first became the coach.  Things got tense for a bit, including Doc taking Paul out and Paul showing extreme displeasure on his face.  I guess you could make the case that Paul is not a "star player" but for the C's at the time, he was as close to a star that the C's had.  Now the two of them are almost always on the same page, and Paul's game has clearly gotten better under Doc's tutelage.

I don't think Doc's tutelage has improved Pierce's game. I think his aging/years of experience have made him wily, but in terms of pure ability as a score he's a little worse than he was in say, 2002. Watch some old highlights - he was RIDICULOUS. 

[nickagneta]

In Lebron's defense(this is the second thread in a row I am defending Lebron. I think I need to go get sick as all this defending of him is making me nauseous), he probably should be ignoring Mike Brown's drawn up plays as I think the man is clueless when it comes to the offensive side of the ball.

If the best player on the team doesn't respect the coach, no one on the team will. That's not a recipe for championship basketball.

Absolutely true and ...it could not have happened to a better team.

[MMacOH]

This is a battle that the coach has no chance of winning.  

I agree that its a slap in the face to Brown and shows zero respect on behalf of James but, in today's NBA, the star player always wins these battles.  If he really wants to, Lebron can use this as serious leverage with his impending free agency.  "Get rid of Brown or see you later".

All the more reason to respect Doc and Pierce.  Doc really asked Paul to change his game and find his shot within Doc's offense when he first became the coach.  Things got tense for a bit, including Doc taking Paul out and Paul showing extreme displeasure on his face.  I guess you could make the case that Paul is not a "star player" but for the C's at the time, he was as close to a star that the C's had.  Now the two of them are almost always on the same page, and Paul's game has clearly gotten better under Doc's tutelage.

Didn't Pierce change his ways when KG and Ray Allen came in?  I am pretty sure Lebron would change his ways if he had a clutch 3 point shooter and consistent inside presence to play with.

I love Mo, but he is very streaky (shooting close to 35% over the last 3 games).  Shaq is really showing his age when asked to play 2 nights in a row.  Z has lost his rhythm coming off the bench.  Delonte and Andy are playing well right now, but the rest of Lebron's teammates are in a small funk.

It will be interesting to see how these next 2-3 months play out.  The Cavs will have about 30 million dollars in expiring contracts to play with at the deadline if the team isn't playing as well a Ferry would like it to.

[nickagneta]

This is a battle that the coach has no chance of winning.  

I agree that its a slap in the face to Brown and shows zero respect on behalf of James but, in today's NBA, the star player always wins these battles.  If he really wants to, Lebron can use this as serious leverage with his impending free agency.  "Get rid of Brown or see you later".

All the more reason to respect Doc and Pierce.  Doc really asked Paul to change his game and find his shot within Doc's offense when he first became the coach.  Things got tense for a bit, including Doc taking Paul out and Paul showing extreme displeasure on his face.  I guess you could make the case that Paul is not a "star player" but for the C's at the time, he was as close to a star that the C's had.  Now the two of them are almost always on the same page, and Paul's game has clearly gotten better under Doc's tutelage.

Didn't Pierce change his ways when KG and Ray Allen came in?  I am pretty sure Lebron would change his ways if he had a clutch 3 point shooter and consistent inside presence to play with.

I love Mo, but he is very streaky (shooting close to 35% over the last 3 games).  Shaq is really showing his age when asked to play 2 nights in a row.  Z has lost his rhythm coming off the bench.  Delonte and Andy are playing well right now, but the rest of Lebron's teammates are in a small funk.

It will be interesting to see how these next 2-3 months play out.  The Cavs will have about 30 million dollars in expiring contracts to play with at the deadline if the team isn't playing as well a Ferry would like it to.

Pierce changed his attitude about what being an NBA player was all about shortly after his being attacked and after Antoine Walker left the second time around. He became a leader and dedicated to his craft. What Pierce changed upon the arrival of KG and Ray wasn't his attitude or personality of attitude toward the game but his game itself. Pierce became a more defensively minded, unselfish, team oriented player upon the arrival of KG and Ray deeming it wiser to sacrifice his game and his numbers for the greater good of the team.

But Pierce was able to make the changes to his game because he made slight changes on his outlook on life and his goals. Pierce was never considered a once in a lifetime talent since grade school and treated as such, hence creating an all-about-me personality that showed in his game. Pierce was shunned by 9 teams falling to 10th in the draft and that created a personality of striving further to make his game better to prove teams wrong. He was out of the spotlight for most of the beginning of his career in the NBA.

LeBron on the other hand has had everything handed to him on a platter since grade school, been deemed "The King" and treated as such. It has definitely effected his game and his personality and I believe just adding two players of the caliber of KG and Ray Allen won't change Lebron, much like the addition of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom and others has never changed Kobe or his game. Gasol, Odom, Bynum et al have had to tailor their games and personalities to conform to Kobe, not the other way around.

LeBron is too set in his way of needing to dominate the game and the spotlight in order to change. Adding a couple of players will never change him.

[Fafnir]

I think LeBron is plenty young to still change his outlook and ways Nick.

I'm not sure that he will, but he easily could. Also he has enough talent that he might never have to. If you put enough quality around him he'll win a title.

[nickagneta]

I think LeBron is plenty young to still change his outlook and ways Nick.

I'm not sure that he will, but he easily could. Also he has enough talent that he might never have to. If you put enough quality around him he'll win a title.

Well, it's possible to snow in the Caribbean too, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, as you hint to. I think LeBron is going to have to have a very hard fall from grace and a major humbling before he will be able to change and conform to others for the greater good like Pierce did.

What I find more likely is that LeBron will be teamed with one or two other superstar quality talents that aren't superstar personalities and that he will become a champion just being himself. MJ had Pippen, a singularly great basketball talent that didn't have an ounce of alpha personality, leadership, or need for the spotlight in him. Kobe now has had Gasol, Bynum and Odom who are equally happy being led rather than leading and like remaining out of the spotlight.

That's what I think will happen with Lebron. I think he will eventually be teamed with one or two unbelievable talents that will prefer to defer to LeBron and be white noise behind LeBron's  crystal clear personality and game.

For that reason I think lebron would be most successful going to NJ in the off season where they can sign Lebron and Joe Johnson to add to Devin Harris, Brook Lopez, Courtney Lee, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Terrance Williams, Yi Jianlian, and a top 5 pick that would be a PF/C which the draft is deep in this year.

[MMacOH]

You may want to watch Lebron play a little more.  He is very team oriented when his team warrants it.  He only took 10 shots the other night in their blowout win against the Bucks.  He is very happy to pass the ball and let his teammates contribute when they are playing well.  The problem recently has been that his teammates have not been playing well.

He spent the first quarter last night trying to get his teammates involved and they responded by not scoring a point for the first 4 minutes.  You almost have to try and take over by that point

[nickagneta]

You may want to watch Lebron play a little more.  He is very team oriented when his team warrants it.  He only took 10 shots the other night in their blowout win against the Bucks.  He is very happy to pass the ball and let his teammates contribute when they are playing well.  The problem recently has been that his teammates have not been playing well.

He spent the first quarter last night trying to get his teammates involved and they responded by not scoring a point for the first 4 minutes.  You almost have to try and take over by that point

I watch LeBron plenty MMac and Lebron's idea of conforming is making sure the offense still runs completely through him and that he is passing to people rather than shooting. Also, this almost always takes place in the first 18-20 minutes of a game and almost never in the final 10 minutes of a game. Heck the game Ilgauskas was held out of, Lebron took 10-12 straight shots(includes FTs) and was the only player on the Cavs to shoot the ball during a 7 minute period in the fourth quarter even though Cleveland held a 10 point or more lead throughout that time frame.

Lebron is an immense player and personality, much like Kobe and Jordan. But like them, to be their team mates means doing whatever Lebron or Kobe or MJ wants. If that means that at that moment he's willing to be a passer, great. But most of the time that means getting him the ball when he wants it and getting out of his way when he says.

[fairweatherfan]

Honest question for Mac - do you think there's any possibility Brown gets fired mid-season?  Obviously just a 2 game L streak's not even close to enough, but if the Cavs continue to languish in 4th for a couple more months and tension with the players keeps increasing, any chance Ferry goes all-in and dumps Brown in favor of a guy LeBron likes better?  I think barring a title Brown'll be a sacrificial lamb to in the offseason to try and keep LeBron anyway, but I'm wondering what the feel is around him now.

[newdusk]

I could never imagine what it would be like knowing I would be a star in the NBA after my sophomore year in High School. Right now though I really think Lebron is  jackass.

This whole going against the coach is way overblown I heard a story once of Larry Bird erasing the marker board and just saying "give me the [dang] ball". You want your star player to do that.

[MMacOH]

Honest question for Mac - do you think there's any possibility Brown gets fired mid-season?  Obviously just a 2 game L streak's not even close to enough, but if the Cavs continue to languish in 4th for a couple more months and tension with the players keeps increasing, any chance Ferry goes all-in and dumps Brown in favor of a guy LeBron likes better?  I think barring a title Brown'll be a sacrificial lamb to in the offseason to try and keep LeBron anyway, but I'm wondering what the feel is around him now.

I highly doubt it.  I also don't think Mike Brown is an automatic fire at the end of the year if the Cavs don't win a championship.  It would all depend on how the Cavs lost (and when they did).  If Brown pulls the same junk this year that he pulled last year then yes, I think he will be fired.

I think if the Cavs were playing poorly at midseason you would see some major trades being made, but I doubt Brown would be canned. 

[j_fran]

[/quote]

LeBron on the other hand has had everything handed to him on a platter since grade school, been deemed "The King" and treated as such.

[/quote]

I think this is actually a important and unfortuantely undiscussed difference between Lebron and Kobe.  Say what yo will about Kobe, but he came into the league out of high school and onto a contending team with one of the most dominant players and personalities in the NBA and was surrounded by other grown men on the team.  He had to work his ass off to become a star on that team and it never became "his" team until after Shaq left.  As you mention, Lebron's been feted as the savior of basketball since his junior year in high school and while he is an absolutely astonishing player at times, I think he's missing the experience of having to fight for everything the way Kobe, and also Michael, had to do.  He's still young and we can never know if it clicks at some point, but he has all the physical gifts to be far far greater than anyone who's come before him.  It remains to be seen if he ever develops the mental ability needed.

[scoop]

LeBron is what? 24 years old? Do people still remember what used to be said about Kobe when he was 24 years old? Do people still remember what used to be said about Jordan when he was 24 years old (and older)?

Somehow this has disappeared from the collective memory, but in his first years in the league Jordan was seen by most people more or less the way Allen Iverson is seen now.