Anyone else looking for Rondo to score more?

[mmmmm]

If shots aren't falling no matter the lack of defense on some of the shots we missed, Rondo has to take himself out of the role of the facilitator and look to take over. I would rather see my star player go 7-20 on a night when everyone else is flat than see him only take nine shots and rely on lesser teammates who aren't on the right side of their streak shooting.

The part in bold strikes me as the gamblers fallacy.

Just because shots have not been falling to some point in a game, you can't let that take you out of your game plan.

The Rockets game was bizarre because it was a team-wide 'slump' of epic proportions to go 1 of 25 from beyond the arc.  But that was pure statistical oddity.  When a shooter misses 2 shots that doesn't really change the probabilities of whether he will miss the next two shots.   You have to play the game as if your next shot is going to go in.

[mmmmm]

Nope.

The PG's role is to run the team, not score the ball.

His role is to execute Coach Stevens' plan on the floor. I'm guessing that Coach Stevens isn't asking Rondo to score the ball, but run his team.

Rondo can score just fine, but he runs the team even better.

How can he be more effective running the team if the team isn't converting his created opportunities?

Last season, the team shot 49% on assist opportunities from Rondo.  That's a team that shot 43.5% overall (tied for 2nd worst in the NBA).

[mmmmm]

Yeah, I'd like to see him attack the rim more in transition instead of surveying the field every time. 

That's how he puts up points in the playoffs - playing more minutes.

FTFY

Hmm… his career points per 100 possessions (20.5) and points per 36 minutes (13.6) are both higher in the playoffs than in the regular season (17.6 & 12.1, respectively).  So I'm not sure what you are basing that on.

In fact, that is dragged down somewhat by his first playoff season (2008), in which he averaged just 11.5 points per 36.   Over the last 4 playoff seasons, he averaged over 14 points per 36.   In his last playoff run (2012) he averaged 14.6 per 36.

[TheFlex]

Nope.

The PG's role is to run the team, not score the ball.

His role is to execute Coach Stevens' plan on the floor. I'm guessing that Coach Stevens isn't asking Rondo to score the ball, but run his team.

Rondo can score just fine, but he runs the team even better.

How can he be more effective running the team if the team isn't converting his created opportunities?

Last season, the team shot 49% on assist opportunities from Rondo.  That's a team that shot 43.5% overall (tied for 2nd worst in the NBA).

I agree that in general Rondo makes the offense better with his passing. I'm asking if in a game such as the one against Houston, should he adjust and look to score more? You make valid points to suggest that such an adjustment would be a bad idea.

[mmmmm]

What I said was that when the team can't hit the broad side of a barn, Rondo should make a determined effort to score. For Rondo to be effective he needs his teammates to not shoot historically bad percentages. That's not his fault, but a downside to his style of play.

As I said above, this sounds very much like the Gambler's Fallacy.

It would be foolish to change your game plan just because any one player has missed their first 2 or 3 three-point shots.  It's also foolish to do it just because 2 or 3 of your players all missed their first 2 or 3 three-point shots.

As I suggested in the OP, in a game like that (vs. Houston), I would rather have him force the issue by looking to score every time he brings the ball up vs. force the issue by driving and dishing out to the three point line

This sounds like bad basketball.

The idea that if Rondo were more of a scorer that that would somehow have changed the outcome of the Rockets game seems silly.   If Rondo scored 10 more points and everything else were the same, the team still loses.

The team shot a reasonable number of 3PTA -- 25 compared to about 22 for league-average last year.  So it's not like they put undue emphasis on the three that left them any more vulnerable than a 'typical' offense.   They just had an atypical number of misses.  ANY team that hits "1 for 25" on their threes (and also yields a 40-18 FTA disparity) is going to lose, whether they have a 'shoot-first PG' or not.

So that's not a vulnerability created by Rondo's style of play.

The fact is, the C's actually recorded a LOT more shots within 12 feet of the basket than the Rockets did.  They just got no trips to the FT line for their trouble.

Finally there have been a couple of calls for Rondo to do more driving.  Through these two games, Rondo is averaging 6.0 drives to the hoop per game.  That's identical to D-Will & Derrick Rose and far more than anyone else on the Celtics (ET at 4.5 and JG at 3.5 are next).   Granted, he hasn't generated a lot of points for the team off those drives yet -- but that's largely due to the crapola shooting his team exhibited in this 2nd game.  Odds are that if his driving trend continues, his team-points-off-drives number will rise over time.

[TheFlex]

What I said was that when the team can't hit the broad side of a barn, Rondo should make a determined effort to score. For Rondo to be effective he needs his teammates to not shoot historically bad percentages. That's not his fault, but a downside to his style of play.

As I said above, this sounds very much like the Gambler's Fallacy.

It would be foolish to change your game plan just because any one player has missed their first 2 or 3 three-point shots.  It's also foolish to do it just because 2 or 3 of your players all missed their first 2 or 3 three-point shots.

As I suggested in the OP, in a game like that (vs. Houston), I would rather have him force the issue by looking to score every time he brings the ball up vs. force the issue by driving and dishing out to the three point line

This sounds like bad basketball.

The idea that if Rondo were more of a scorer that that would somehow have changed the outcome of the Rockets game seems silly.   If Rondo scored 10 more points and everything else were the same, the team still loses.

The team shot a reasonable number of 3PTA -- 25 compared to about 22 for league-average last year.  So it's not like they put undue emphasis on the three that left them any more vulnerable than a 'typical' offense.   They just had an atypical number of misses.  ANY team that hits "1 for 25" on their threes (and also yields a 40-18 FTA disparity) is going to lose, whether they have a 'shoot-first PG' or not.

So that's not a vulnerability created by Rondo's style of play.

The fact is, the C's actually recorded a LOT more shots within 12 feet of the basket than the Rockets did.  They just got no trips to the FT line for their trouble.

Finally there have been a couple of calls for Rondo to do more driving.  Through these two games, Rondo is averaging 6.0 drives to the hoop per game.  That's identical to D-Will & Derrick Rose and far more than anyone else on the Celtics (ET at 4.5 and JG at 3.5 are next).   Granted, he hasn't generated a lot of points for the team off those drives yet -- but that's largely due to the crapola shooting his team exhibited in this 2nd game.  Odds are that if his driving trend continues, his team-points-off-drives number will rise over time.

I think you're normalizing my suggestion a tad. I'm not saying CBS and Rondo should flip out after every missed shot. But going into the locker room at halftime in a game like Saturday night's would it be reasonable for them to establish that Rondo should look to score more? I don't know if this can be backed up statistically but I've noticed that Rondo often passes up mildly guarded shots for the more open man. This is great 95% of the time, but in a situation such as Saturday night's game, is it truly a better shot if the open man can't hit anything?

Interesting stats about Rondo's drives. TP.

[D.o.s.]

Yeah, I'd like to see him attack the rim more in transition instead of surveying the field every time. 

That's how he puts up points in the playoffs - playing more minutes.

FTFY

Hmm… his career points per 100 possessions (20.5) and points per 36 minutes (13.6) are both higher in the playoffs than in the regular season (17.6 & 12.1, respectively).  So I'm not sure what you are basing that on.

In fact, that is dragged down somewhat by his first playoff season (2008), in which he averaged just 11.5 points per 36.   Over the last 4 playoff seasons, he averaged over 14 points per 36.   In his last playoff run (2012) he averaged 14.6 per 36.

As to graph one: by virtue of the fact that he played nearly 43 mpg during the playoffs.

As to the point of the fix -- I don't believe there was a significant uptick in his "aggression in semi transition," which is not the same thing as claiming that he wasn't scoring more. Double negative FTW.

[D.o.s.]

I will say that I did see Rondo pass up a wide open layup for the tricky pass to a trailing Brandon Bass -- maybe during his assist streak? -- that was facepalm worthy, but that's the exception that proves the rule in regards to Rondo's passing.

[Snakehead]

I will say that I did see Rondo pass up a wide open layup for the tricky pass to a trailing Brandon Bass -- maybe during his assist streak? -- that was facepalm worthy, but that's the exception that proves the rule in regards to Rondo's passing.

He still will do this on occasion (did in the first game to Zeller when he was really open for a lay up) but I think he's probably the best passer in the league and I kind of like going out of your way to feed bigs who run hard and fill their lanes.  Like with Zeller I think he fed him a few times when he was moving well and that encourages him to do so.  Yes we just need the points on the board to win but if it works out that makes for some fun plays that gets the whole team up.

Rondo does do some padding but I think many do and it being things like an overpass or going out of his way to get his last few boards I don't see as too big of a deal.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I look for Rondo to assist as he has., he knows when to score, and when to pass., HE is the perfect FLOOR GENERAL..!!! PURE PG. We don't want an Allen Iverson, or even westbrook., There is nothing worse than a pg who always gets the ball, and keeps it.....the rest of the guys need to work harder on their game., get one shot that is 70%, like Bass did with his midrange jumper......ANYONE can learn a shot....if you cannot, you don't belong in the NBA..so GET TO WORK...!!! Rondo has invented more passes than anyone.....!!! He has also adjusted from watching last year....the man knows what he is doing, and he is right by ME..!!!

[mmmmm]

I will say that I did see Rondo pass up a wide open layup for the tricky pass to a trailing Brandon Bass -- maybe during his assist streak? -- that was facepalm worthy, but that's the exception that proves the rule in regards to Rondo's passing.

He still will do this on occasion (did in the first game to Zeller when he was really open for a lay up) but I think he's probably the best passer in the league and I kind of like going out of your way to feed bigs who run hard and fill their lanes.  Like with Zeller I think he fed him a few times when he was moving well and that encourages him to do so.  Yes we just need the points on the board to win but if it works out that makes for some fun plays that gets the whole team up.

Rondo does do some padding but I think many do and it being things like an overpass or going out of his way to get his last few boards I don't see as too big of a deal.

I think this is saying simply that no player is perfect.   A score-first PG will occasionally take a bad shot that they shouldn't have whereas a pass-first PG might NOT take a shot that they perhaps should have.

[BballTim]

Yeah, I'd like to see him attack the rim more in transition instead of surveying the field every time. 

That's how he puts up points in the playoffs - playing more minutes.

FTFY

Hmm… his career points per 100 possessions (20.5) and points per 36 minutes (13.6) are both higher in the playoffs than in the regular season (17.6 & 12.1, respectively).  So I'm not sure what you are basing that on.

In fact, that is dragged down somewhat by his first playoff season (2008), in which he averaged just 11.5 points per 36.   Over the last 4 playoff seasons, he averaged over 14 points per 36.   In his last playoff run (2012) he averaged 14.6 per 36.

As to graph one: by virtue of the fact that he played nearly 43 mpg during the playoffs.

As to the point of the fix -- I don't believe there was a significant uptick in his "aggression in semi transition," which is not the same thing as claiming that he wasn't scoring more. Double negative FTW.

  I think he attacks the hoop more aggressively in the playoffs as well. If you look at the hoopdata (I miss that site) box scores from the playoffs he has about as many "at the rim" fga/game as LeBron. LeBron's still taking a few more than Rondo as some of his result in 2 fta and no fga, but it's still a significant amount.

[BballTim]

Nope.

The PG's role is to run the team, not score the ball.

His role is to execute Coach Stevens' plan on the floor. I'm guessing that Coach Stevens isn't asking Rondo to score the ball, but run his team.

Rondo can score just fine, but he runs the team even better.

How can he be more effective running the team if the team isn't converting his created opportunities?

  There's always degrees to that, isn't there? Even under the best of circumstances the team doesn't convert all of the opportunities Rondo creates. So they're always converting some but not all, and they'll normally convert more of those opportunities than other opportunities. So the shooting in the Houston game was bad, but without those passes it probably would have been worse.

[Evantime34]

Yes I'm looking for him to score more, however I think it will come.

Without playing in any pre season games it is not a shock to see his shot isn't falling. The shot that I think he will need to knock down in order to be a consistent threat on offense is the floater. In the past he has shot the floater well but we haven't seen it be successful this year.

I have no desire for him to shoot more jumpers unless he is left wide open from the free throw line or closer, but I do want to see him shoot more going to the basket.

[BballTim]

  Where was all the concern about scoring after the first game? We shot 1-25 on threes and still scored 90 vs the Rockets. We could have shot a well below average 5-25 on threes and broken 100 points.

If you read the OP carefully instead of freaking out every time Rondo was criticized you would know why I wasn't concerned about his scoring after the first game. His teammates were shooting a league-best FG% against Brooklyn, and thus Rondo did not need to adjust his style of play. He let the game come to him and scored when he was wide open. However in a game such as the one against Houston, Rondo's style of play was ineffective because his elite passing ability only goes so far as his teammates' ability to shoot a decent FG%. And therefore, at halftime or so, Rondo should recognize that his teammates are not shooting well, adjust, and make a more determined effort to score.

  Dude, you need to get over yourself. What I posted doesn't constitute "freaking out", and it wasn't directed towards the OP anyways. Also, one thing you need to consider is that teams can go from hot to cold to hot rather quickly, and you can't assume that the team will be shooting well or poorly for an entire game. In the Dallas game the team shot 35% in the first half and 52% in the second half. What happens if he employs your strategy and shoots instead of passing after half time?