Gordon starting to turn the corner?

[Silky]

I watched the whole game last night and definitely think Kyrie was the reason we lost plus Lakers had an abnormally amazing shooting night: 53% from 3.

While I am somewhat disappointed in Hayward thus far, it's really not his fault AND he has had a great attitude about it.

I really think it's almost time to put Hayward back in the starting lineup and Morris back to the bench. Hayward is not scoring yet but doing everything else pretty well: passing, the defense was good against Bron and taller McGee at times(as good as any guarding Bron), rebounds, etc. He is similar to Horford right now: does so many things well but doesn't always score a ton.

PLUS I feel like most of the game Hayward is not involved in the offense with kyrie, Tatum, Brown often doing their own thing. Kyrie has gotten a lot better-involving others but Tatum is the one that frustrates me. Yea, he had 5 assists last night but I feel he missed many open guys and instead forced up tough shots ala Kobe. Tatum is a really good player but just an average team player imo at the moment.

Morris should have been traded, as he is starting to return to the norm in relation to his shooting yet he still puts up shots.

Last night offensively and defensively he was abyssmal.

Kyrie had a bad night, we cannot expect him to play like an MVP every single night to win us games.

IF hayward is brought back into starting lineup, Brown needs to come as well, because we cannot have 2 inept offensive players in the starting lineup at a time.

I am all for Brown starting again. Even though Smart has played well, Brown would have never lost his spot if he were playing like he has since the first month of the season.

But, what are you talking about? Are you saying that Hayward is an inept offensive player or that Hayward is more inept than Morris? Because I don't see that at all. Hayward may not have all the same one on one moves that he used to have (that Morris lives for), but the rest of of his offensive game is easily just as good, and he blows Morris away with his playmaking.

Hayward is for the most part and offensive and defensive liability on the court.

Marcus smart is an offensive liability even though this is his best offensive season ever.

Offense needs another weapon if hayward replaces morris in thebstarting lineup because you cannot trust gordon at this point in time offensive....and I do not want smart picking up the slack.

Thats why if hayward comes in for morris, that brown has to come in for smart. 

Balance.

I've seen  the take multiple times on this board that Hayward is a liability on offense and defense. The stats don't back that up his net rating is +5.9. He isn't his old self but he's not a scrub either.

His net rating is 2. And he has a negative obpm

109 offensive and 107 defemsive while being hidden on both aspects.

Here is where I'm getting my stats. Not sure where your getting  109 and 107.

https://on.nba.com/2GgVzys

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html

[Wretch]

I watched the whole game last night and definitely think Kyrie was the reason we lost plus Lakers had an abnormally amazing shooting night: 53% from 3.

While I am somewhat disappointed in Hayward thus far, it's really not his fault AND he has had a great attitude about it.

I really think it's almost time to put Hayward back in the starting lineup and Morris back to the bench. Hayward is not scoring yet but doing everything else pretty well: passing, the defense was good against Bron and taller McGee at times(as good as any guarding Bron), rebounds, etc. He is similar to Horford right now: does so many things well but doesn't always score a ton.

PLUS I feel like most of the game Hayward is not involved in the offense with kyrie, Tatum, Brown often doing their own thing. Kyrie has gotten a lot better-involving others but Tatum is the one that frustrates me. Yea, he had 5 assists last night but I feel he missed many open guys and instead forced up tough shots ala Kobe. Tatum is a really good player but just an average team player imo at the moment.

Morris should have been traded, as he is starting to return to the norm in relation to his shooting yet he still puts up shots.

Last night offensively and defensively he was abyssmal.

Kyrie had a bad night, we cannot expect him to play like an MVP every single night to win us games.

IF hayward is brought back into starting lineup, Brown needs to come as well, because we cannot have 2 inept offensive players in the starting lineup at a time.

I am all for Brown starting again. Even though Smart has played well, Brown would have never lost his spot if he were playing like he has since the first month of the season.

But, what are you talking about? Are you saying that Hayward is an inept offensive player or that Hayward is more inept than Morris? Because I don't see that at all. Hayward may not have all the same one on one moves that he used to have (that Morris lives for), but the rest of of his offensive game is easily just as good, and he blows Morris away with his playmaking.

Hayward is for the most part and offensive and defensive liability on the court.

Marcus smart is an offensive liability even though this is his best offensive season ever.

Offense needs another weapon if hayward replaces morris in thebstarting lineup because you cannot trust gordon at this point in time offensive....and I do not want smart picking up the slack.

Thats why if hayward comes in for morris, that brown has to come in for smart. 

Balance.

I've seen  the take multiple times on this board that Hayward is a liability on offense and defense. The stats don't back that up his net rating is +5.9. He isn't his old self but he's not a scrub either.

His net rating is 2. And he has a negative obpm

109 offensive and 107 defemsive while being hidden on both aspects.

Here is where I'm getting my stats. Not sure where your getting  109 and 107.

https://on.nba.com/2GgVzys

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html

looks like your looking at the per 100 possession stats not the overall offensive and defensive  ratings. I`m not sure why there's  a discrepancy. He's still a net positve regardless of source of the stats.

[gouki88]

I watched the whole game last night and definitely think Kyrie was the reason we lost plus Lakers had an abnormally amazing shooting night: 53% from 3.

While I am somewhat disappointed in Hayward thus far, it's really not his fault AND he has had a great attitude about it.

I really think it's almost time to put Hayward back in the starting lineup and Morris back to the bench. Hayward is not scoring yet but doing everything else pretty well: passing, the defense was good against Bron and taller McGee at times(as good as any guarding Bron), rebounds, etc. He is similar to Horford right now: does so many things well but doesn't always score a ton.

PLUS I feel like most of the game Hayward is not involved in the offense with kyrie, Tatum, Brown often doing their own thing. Kyrie has gotten a lot better-involving others but Tatum is the one that frustrates me. Yea, he had 5 assists last night but I feel he missed many open guys and instead forced up tough shots ala Kobe. Tatum is a really good player but just an average team player imo at the moment.

Morris should have been traded, as he is starting to return to the norm in relation to his shooting yet he still puts up shots.

Last night offensively and defensively he was abyssmal.

Kyrie had a bad night, we cannot expect him to play like an MVP every single night to win us games.

IF hayward is brought back into starting lineup, Brown needs to come as well, because we cannot have 2 inept offensive players in the starting lineup at a time.

I am all for Brown starting again. Even though Smart has played well, Brown would have never lost his spot if he were playing like he has since the first month of the season.

But, what are you talking about? Are you saying that Hayward is an inept offensive player or that Hayward is more inept than Morris? Because I don't see that at all. Hayward may not have all the same one on one moves that he used to have (that Morris lives for), but the rest of of his offensive game is easily just as good, and he blows Morris away with his playmaking.

Hayward is for the most part and offensive and defensive liability on the court.

Marcus smart is an offensive liability even though this is his best offensive season ever.

Offense needs another weapon if hayward replaces morris in thebstarting lineup because you cannot trust gordon at this point in time offensive....and I do not want smart picking up the slack.

Thats why if hayward comes in for morris, that brown has to come in for smart. 

Balance.

I've seen  the take multiple times on this board that Hayward is a liability on offense and defense. The stats don't back that up his net rating is +5.9. He isn't his old self but he's not a scrub either.

His net rating is 2. And he has a negative obpm

109 offensive and 107 defemsive while being hidden on both aspects.

Here is where I'm getting my stats. Not sure where your getting  109 and 107.

https://on.nba.com/2GgVzys

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html

looks like your looking at the per 100 possession stats not the overall offensive and defensive  ratings. I`m not sure why there's  a discrepancy. He's still a net positve regardless of source of the stats.

Net positives someow = he sucks

[The Oracle]

I watched the whole game last night and definitely think Kyrie was the reason we lost plus Lakers had an abnormally amazing shooting night: 53% from 3.

While I am somewhat disappointed in Hayward thus far, it's really not his fault AND he has had a great attitude about it.

I really think it's almost time to put Hayward back in the starting lineup and Morris back to the bench. Hayward is not scoring yet but doing everything else pretty well: passing, the defense was good against Bron and taller McGee at times(as good as any guarding Bron), rebounds, etc. He is similar to Horford right now: does so many things well but doesn't always score a ton.

PLUS I feel like most of the game Hayward is not involved in the offense with kyrie, Tatum, Brown often doing their own thing. Kyrie has gotten a lot better-involving others but Tatum is the one that frustrates me. Yea, he had 5 assists last night but I feel he missed many open guys and instead forced up tough shots ala Kobe. Tatum is a really good player but just an average team player imo at the moment.

Morris should have been traded, as he is starting to return to the norm in relation to his shooting yet he still puts up shots.

Last night offensively and defensively he was abyssmal.

Kyrie had a bad night, we cannot expect him to play like an MVP every single night to win us games.

IF hayward is brought back into starting lineup, Brown needs to come as well, because we cannot have 2 inept offensive players in the starting lineup at a time.

I am all for Brown starting again. Even though Smart has played well, Brown would have never lost his spot if he were playing like he has since the first month of the season.

But, what are you talking about? Are you saying that Hayward is an inept offensive player or that Hayward is more inept than Morris? Because I don't see that at all. Hayward may not have all the same one on one moves that he used to have (that Morris lives for), but the rest of of his offensive game is easily just as good, and he blows Morris away with his playmaking.

Hayward is for the most part and offensive and defensive liability on the court.

Marcus smart is an offensive liability even though this is his best offensive season ever.

Offense needs another weapon if hayward replaces morris in thebstarting lineup because you cannot trust gordon at this point in time offensive....and I do not want smart picking up the slack.

Thats why if hayward comes in for morris, that brown has to come in for smart. 

Balance.

I've seen  the take multiple times on this board that Hayward is a liability on offense and defense. The stats don't back that up his net rating is +5.9. He isn't his old self but he's not a scrub either.

His net rating is 2. And he has a negative obpm

109 offensive and 107 defemsive while being hidden on both aspects.

Here is where I'm getting my stats. Not sure where your getting  109 and 107.

https://on.nba.com/2GgVzys

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/haywago01.html

looks like your looking at the per 100 possession stats not the overall offensive and defensive  ratings. I`m not sure why there's  a discrepancy. He's still a net positve regardless of source of the stats.

There is a discrepancy because Silky is quoting the bogus Off. rat. and Def. rat. numbers from BBREF.  They are not per 100 numbers.

[Silky]

It doesnt take much to see that hayward has been moatly ineffective


More opportunity might fix that, but all that can be stated right now is that what is being done isnt wprking

[gpap]

I watched the whole game last night and definitely think Kyrie was the reason we lost plus Lakers had an abnormally amazing shooting night: 53% from 3.

While I am somewhat disappointed in Hayward thus far, it's really not his fault AND he has had a great attitude about it.

I really think it's almost time to put Hayward back in the starting lineup and Morris back to the bench. Hayward is not scoring yet but doing everything else pretty well: passing, the defense was good against Bron and taller McGee at times(as good as any guarding Bron), rebounds, etc. He is similar to Horford right now: does so many things well but doesn't always score a ton.

PLUS I feel like most of the game Hayward is not involved in the offense with kyrie, Tatum, Brown often doing their own thing. Kyrie has gotten a lot better-involving others but Tatum is the one that frustrates me. Yea, he had 5 assists last night but I feel he missed many open guys and instead forced up tough shots ala Kobe. Tatum is a really good player but just an average team player imo at the moment.

Morris should have been traded, as he is starting to return to the norm in relation to his shooting yet he still puts up shots.

Last night offensively and defensively he was abyssmal.

Kyrie had a bad night, we cannot expect him to play like an MVP every single night to win us games.

IF hayward is brought back into starting lineup, Brown needs to come as well, because we cannot have 2 inept offensive players in the starting lineup at a time.

I am all for Brown starting again. Even though Smart has played well, Brown would have never lost his spot if he were playing like he has since the first month of the season.

But, what are you talking about? Are you saying that Hayward is an inept offensive player or that Hayward is more inept than Morris? Because I don't see that at all. Hayward may not have all the same one on one moves that he used to have (that Morris lives for), but the rest of of his offensive game is easily just as good, and he blows Morris away with his playmaking.

I have no clue why or where the Morris hate is coming from, but he continues to be one of our most consistent players and our starting lineup improved dramatically when Morris was inserted.

If Hayward was so much better than Morris, then he would be starting over Morris, but he's not.

I certainly don't hate Morris, but I don't think we should lean upon him so much moving forward. He had a tremendous start to the year and has cooled down a bit lately - totally expected since he was putting up all-world efficiency numbers. OTOH, Hayward and Brown were pretty much trash to start the year and have consistently been getting better. I believe if current Hayward played similarly to Morris, he would put up bigger scoring numbers.

Also of note is that Hayward and Brown are going to be with us next season (and beyond) while Morris may very well be on another team (he deserves to get paid and we aren't the ones to be able to do it). All I really said was Hayward is a much better playmaker than Morris and is getting his scoring ability back to the level of Morris. That isn't that outlandish of a comment for a max-level All-star working his way back from injury.

I get where you're coming from. I am just not as sold on Hayward as you are. I still think Morris is the better option than Hayward in the starting lineup. He's a more reliable scorer, he's more aggressive and I just think is the better fit right now.

I know Hayward teases us with flashes of brilliance (like the Cavs game on Tuesday) but then he follows it up with his dud performance vs the Lakers.  Also, if Danny is successful in making a major roster haul this summer to get AD, it wouldn't surprise me if the Celts re-signed Morris.

I agree with you more on Jaylen Brown. He's been playing alot better lately and wouldn't mind seeing Brad give him another shot in the starting lineup at the 2 and having Smart coming off the bench. Not as punishment to Smart because he's been playing his butt off, but because Brown has earned more minutes. He just really needs to work on his free throw shooting.

[keevsnick]

I just hate the way people are treating him on this forum. It is not his fault for breaking his let in the worst way since Livingston did so.
Give him a break(no pun intended), at least look at the positives. He doesn’t have follow up injuries, and is showing flashes of his former all star self. I am confident that he will be a great bench player this season, and back compleatly the next october.

I'm telling you it all comes down to the $30m. If Gordon was getting paid half that the outcry wouldn't be anything near as much. It really doesn't help that with the minutes he is given and the role he has when everyone is healthy, it's very hard to get the 20-5-5 that people want from him as befitting a player who is the 6th highest paid in the NBA right now.

Hayward had an 8% usage last night compared to 24.5% against the Cavs.  The lowest on the team last night.  Even with the low usage and minimal touches he delivered 6 rebounds and 5 assists.  8% is way too low for Hayward and he should get a chance to facilitate during meaningful minutes in the 4th.

This.

As far as the money goes, it is disappointing, but that's where we are at. I would love to see Hayward get more opportunities on offense, but with Morris and Rozier still here, it's going to be difficult. I don't ever expect Hayward to put up Utah numbers, but he should be a much bigger part of our offense.

Hopefully, if we do trade for AD, we will clear away some of the logjam and the role players we do bring in will know their place in the hierarchy. It is way too jumbled up right now.

So this is a take I very strongly disagree with, the "He is scoring so little because he doesn't get enough opportunities" take. And its just not true. These games where he ges 1-6, 0-5, 2-7 ect  aren't happening because he is actually good but doesn't get the reps to show it. They happen because during the course of the game A) Hayward can't even manage to get past a PF or C and get into the paint. B) He passes out of shots because he has no confidence. C) He just doesn't have it and its obvious so the team and Hayward look elsewhere for their scoring.

To me its pretty simple, he's not 100% physically. I don't mean he's injured, he has just clearly lost some explosion both vertically and in the quickness area. And this shouldn't really be surprising, his leg snapped in half 16 months ago and then this summer he had to have another surgery, it wouldn't surprise me if he still experiences swelling and/or soreness and even if he's not it takes a while to regain full strength after a devastating injury. I doubt we will see the best Hayward this season, but its wouldn't surprise me at all next season. For that reason I am willing to give this season a pass.

And yes, I've seen him dunk. But I've also scene him get blocked from behind during a fast break, or stopped in an iso by Nene (Houston Rockets), best described as a statue at this point. I think hayward will be back, I don't KNOW it. The Paul George injury happened at a young age, Hayward is about t turn 29. he may never be 100% of his Utah self again. But he will certainly be better, and as others have noted he isn't bad right now.

[bopna]

The only corner he has turned is the way to the bank to encash his checks...
LeBron hasn't played in 5 weeks, comes back ays like a superstar..

Hayward has been playing the entire season and has had more abysmal and soso games than good games.

He ain't turning no corner anytime soon... Probably never.

[Androslav]

The only corner he has turned is the way to the bank to encash his checks...
LeBron hasn't played in 5 weeks, comes back ays like a superstar..

Hayward has been playing the entire season and has had more abysmal and soso games than good games.

He ain't turning no corner anytime soon... Probably never.

Especially when you consider they had identical injury.

[bopna]

The only corner he has turned is the way to the bank to encash his checks...
LeBron hasn't played in 5 weeks, comes back ays like a superstar..

Hayward has been playing the entire season and has had more abysmal and soso games than good games.

He ain't turning no corner anytime soon... Probably never.

Especially when you consider they had identical injury.

Please stop with the injury excuse.

The guy has been running fast on the fastbreak, dunking, passing well etc.
he probably beats Lebron in a sprint to be honest.

But 4 freaking points on national TV for a max player...unheard of.

He is playing terrible offensively and this ain't gonna change soon.

[GreenWarrior]

if he's injured he needs to be shut down. this team is ready, they shouldn't be left back for one player.

[mctyson]

When Hayward and Kyrie share the floor together, they are +5 in net rating.  While that is not great (best on the team is Morris and Tatum at +12), that certainly is not worthy of all the Hawyard hate.

Unfortunately most of his minutes are with Brown and Rozier (and that trio is also about a +5).  I tend to think the individual play of Hayward is under too much of a spotlight and people need to realize that he is not paired with players that will maximize his output.  Also, he is focusing on facilitating Brown and Rozier, and to a lesser extent Tatum or even Theis when they are together. 

Stevens clearly wants Hayward ready for the playoffs so you can expect more games where he puts up very little production, so long as he is getting minutes and is keeping the other players engaged and playing well.

[Chris22]

Hayward has played well. We have won ten of our last eleven games.

Celtic fans are the worst.

[cman88]

I just hate the way people are treating him on this forum. It is not his fault for breaking his let in the worst way since Livingston did so.
Give him a break(no pun intended), at least look at the positives. He doesn’t have follow up injuries, and is showing flashes of his former all star self. I am confident that he will be a great bench player this season, and back compleatly the next october.

I'm telling you it all comes down to the $30m. If Gordon was getting paid half that the outcry wouldn't be anything near as much. It really doesn't help that with the minutes he is given and the role he has when everyone is healthy, it's very hard to get the 20-5-5 that people want from him as befitting a player who is the 6th highest paid in the NBA right now.

Hayward had an 8% usage last night compared to 24.5% against the Cavs.  The lowest on the team last night.  Even with the low usage and minimal touches he delivered 6 rebounds and 5 assists.  8% is way too low for Hayward and he should get a chance to facilitate during meaningful minutes in the 4th.

This.

As far as the money goes, it is disappointing, but that's where we are at. I would love to see Hayward get more opportunities on offense, but with Morris and Rozier still here, it's going to be difficult. I don't ever expect Hayward to put up Utah numbers, but he should be a much bigger part of our offense.

Hopefully, if we do trade for AD, we will clear away some of the logjam and the role players we do bring in will know their place in the hierarchy. It is way too jumbled up right now.

So this is a take I very strongly disagree with, the "He is scoring so little because he doesn't get enough opportunities" take. And its just not true. These games where he ges 1-6, 0-5, 2-7 ect  aren't happening because he is actually good but doesn't get the reps to show it. They happen because during the course of the game A) Hayward can't even manage to get past a PF or C and get into the paint. B) He passes out of shots because he has no confidence. C) He just doesn't have it and its obvious so the team and Hayward look elsewhere for their scoring.

To me its pretty simple, he's not 100% physically. I don't mean he's injured, he has just clearly lost some explosion both vertically and in the quickness area. And this shouldn't really be surprising, his leg snapped in half 16 months ago and then this summer he had to have another surgery, it wouldn't surprise me if he still experiences swelling and/or soreness and even if he's not it takes a while to regain full strength after a devastating injury. I doubt we will see the best Hayward this season, but its wouldn't surprise me at all next season. For that reason I am willing to give this season a pass.

And yes, I've seen him dunk. But I've also scene him get blocked from behind during a fast break, or stopped in an iso by Nene (Houston Rockets), best described as a statue at this point. I think hayward will be back, I don't KNOW it. The Paul George injury happened at a young age, Hayward is about t turn 29. he may never be 100% of his Utah self again. But he will certainly be better, and as others have noted he isn't bad right now.

I still believe its about Usage. how does the guy have an 18% usage rate against the cavs and have 18points, and then an 8% usage rate against the Lakers and look abysmal.

Hes not getting consistent shots to get in a rhythm. Same reason Rozier looks like garbage off the bench, but then puts up 26pts when Kyrie is out in a starting role. Some players just need touches/to handle the ball.

I would like to see hayward lead the second unit more rather than Rozier. he seems to have good passing abilities as he hit theis several times. When rozier has the ball he is looking to score.

[keevsnick]

I just hate the way people are treating him on this forum. It is not his fault for breaking his let in the worst way since Livingston did so.
Give him a break(no pun intended), at least look at the positives. He doesn’t have follow up injuries, and is showing flashes of his former all star self. I am confident that he will be a great bench player this season, and back compleatly the next october.

I'm telling you it all comes down to the $30m. If Gordon was getting paid half that the outcry wouldn't be anything near as much. It really doesn't help that with the minutes he is given and the role he has when everyone is healthy, it's very hard to get the 20-5-5 that people want from him as befitting a player who is the 6th highest paid in the NBA right now.

Hayward had an 8% usage last night compared to 24.5% against the Cavs.  The lowest on the team last night.  Even with the low usage and minimal touches he delivered 6 rebounds and 5 assists.  8% is way too low for Hayward and he should get a chance to facilitate during meaningful minutes in the 4th.

This.

As far as the money goes, it is disappointing, but that's where we are at. I would love to see Hayward get more opportunities on offense, but with Morris and Rozier still here, it's going to be difficult. I don't ever expect Hayward to put up Utah numbers, but he should be a much bigger part of our offense.

Hopefully, if we do trade for AD, we will clear away some of the logjam and the role players we do bring in will know their place in the hierarchy. It is way too jumbled up right now.

So this is a take I very strongly disagree with, the "He is scoring so little because he doesn't get enough opportunities" take. And its just not true. These games where he ges 1-6, 0-5, 2-7 ect  aren't happening because he is actually good but doesn't get the reps to show it. They happen because during the course of the game A) Hayward can't even manage to get past a PF or C and get into the paint. B) He passes out of shots because he has no confidence. C) He just doesn't have it and its obvious so the team and Hayward look elsewhere for their scoring.

To me its pretty simple, he's not 100% physically. I don't mean he's injured, he has just clearly lost some explosion both vertically and in the quickness area. And this shouldn't really be surprising, his leg snapped in half 16 months ago and then this summer he had to have another surgery, it wouldn't surprise me if he still experiences swelling and/or soreness and even if he's not it takes a while to regain full strength after a devastating injury. I doubt we will see the best Hayward this season, but its wouldn't surprise me at all next season. For that reason I am willing to give this season a pass.

And yes, I've seen him dunk. But I've also scene him get blocked from behind during a fast break, or stopped in an iso by Nene (Houston Rockets), best described as a statue at this point. I think hayward will be back, I don't KNOW it. The Paul George injury happened at a young age, Hayward is about t turn 29. he may never be 100% of his Utah self again. But he will certainly be better, and as others have noted he isn't bad right now.

I still believe its about Usage. how does the guy have an 18% usage rate against the cavs and have 18points, and then an 8% usage rate against the Lakers and look abysmal.

Hes not getting consistent shots to get in a rhythm. Same reason Rozier looks like garbage off the bench, but then puts up 26pts when Kyrie is out in a starting role. Some players just need touches/to handle the ball.

I would like to see hayward lead the second unit more rather than Rozier. he seems to have good passing abilities as he hit theis several times. When rozier has the ball he is looking to score.

Well to start it might have something to do with the fact that the Cavs are literally one of the worst defensive units of all time? And that the Lakers are a top 10 defense this year? Again, I think you are confusing cause and effect. Getting more opportunities IS NOT leading to his playing better, he gets more opportunities WHEN he plays better. Same games he is aggressive, his shot is falling, or maybe he just physically feeling better in some games than others. If you try to for feed him shots instead of 1/6 games you'll just get 2/12 performances instead. The guy is Brad Stevens binkie, if he could handle more he would be getting more.