CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on January 20, 2013, 10:46:05 PM
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I know we're likely trying to package some of our assets to make an upgrade. We have some redundant players.
Is the consensus here that Avery Bradley is better than Courtney Lee? It's interesting, because if you weren't actually watching the games and just looking at stats, you'd probably assume Lee is superior. Certainly Lee has a better track record. 4 years of quality college ball followed by 4 years of quality pro ball. While Bradley has an overrated high school career, subpar freshman college season, a dreadful rookie NBA season and a phenomenal 15 game stretch in 2012 to make up his resume.
But even this month...
Lee - 7.6 points, 1.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 52% shooting, 38% from three and 80% from the line in only 17.7 minutes..
VS
Bradley - 8.1 points, 1.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.3 steals, 41% shooting, 29% from three and 25% from the line in 23.5 minutes
I said before the season that Lee was our best all around shooting guard... Bradley arguably having a slight edge on him defensively and the redundant Terry/Barbosa having a slight edge offensively... but I also gave bonus points to Lee for being 3 inches and 20 pounds bigger than both Bradley and Terry.
Thoughts on this subject?
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I think we need to keep them both. If anything, Terry is the odd guard out in a trade.
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I think we need to keep them both. If anything, Terry is the odd guard out in a trade.
If I were guessing in terms of trade value I'd probably say Lee would have the most value of any of our backup shooting guards (Lee, Terry, Bradley and Barbosa). I'd guess that Bradley would have the 2nd most trade value based on the perception of him as a lockdown defensive role player with potential.
I don't know how much value a career backup like Jason Terry has... especially at the age of 35. I assume that if we're looking to make an upgrade, we'll have to part with either Lee or Bradley amongst many other assets.
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You simply can't judge Bradley by the stats. Lee didn't start playing a lot better until Bradley came back, for one thing.
But I don't think it's a stretch to say that the stats don't do Bradley justice. In terms of value, I don't think it's close at all between Bradley and Lee, not least of all because Bradley is on a cheaper contract, is only 22, and still has plenty of upside.
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Is bradley better than Lee right now or do you just think he has more potential
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If Lee was as good or better than Bradley, Doc would have been starting a HEALTHIER Lee all season... not only did he not start him, he put Terry as the starter while AB was out! To me there is no debate, when AB is healthy, he is the better player. Comparing the stats of a guy who has played in 8 games coming back from injuries/double surgery to a person who has played 30+ and is in top game shape is weird to me... with that said, AB is still matching him stat-wise...
Lee has been good the second half of these 30+ games and I like him but the only thing I see going for him over AB is his health... sadly, that may be all he needs.
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Bradley is better right now, and he probably always will be.
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I know we're likely trying to package some of our assets to make an upgrade. We have some redundant players.
Is the consensus here that Avery Bradley is better than Courtney Lee? It's interesting, because if you weren't actually watching the games and just looking at stats, you'd probably assume Lee is superior. Certainly Lee has a better track record. 4 years of quality college ball followed by 4 years of quality pro ball. While Bradley has an overrated high school career, subpar freshman college season, a dreadful rookie NBA season and a phenomenal 15 game stretch in 2012 to make up his resume.
But even this month...
Lee - 7.6 points, 1.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 52% shooting, 38% from three and 80% from the line in only 17.7 minutes..
VS
Bradley - 8.1 points, 1.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.3 steals, 41% shooting, 29% from three and 25% from the line in 23.5 minutes
I said before the season that Lee was our best all around shooting guard... Bradley arguably having a slight edge on him defensively and the redundant Terry/Barbosa having a slight edge offensively... but I also gave bonus points to Lee for being 3 inches and 20 pounds bigger than both Bradley and Terry.
Thoughts on this subject?
Obviously you can't get a read on Bradley yet. His first few games back from a long term injury and his games with the rib injury make up over half his games played thus far.
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You simply can't judge Bradley by the stats. Lee didn't start playing a lot better until Bradley came back, for one thing.
But I don't think it's a stretch to say that the stats don't do Bradley justice. In terms of value, I don't think it's close at all between Bradley and Lee, not least of all because Bradley is on a cheaper contract, is only 22, and still has plenty of upside.
I agree
Bradley is scratching his potential, Lee is maxed out.
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Bradley is way better...you were wrong and still are to think lee is our best shooting guard, the numbers mean nothing..Bradley makes the team considerably better, including lee, who has no more potential to reach on top of it
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You simply can't judge Bradley by the stats. Lee didn't start playing a lot better until Bradley came back, for one thing.
But I don't think it's a stretch to say that the stats don't do Bradley justice. In terms of value, I don't think it's close at all between Bradley and Lee, not least of all because Bradley is on a cheaper contract, is only 22, and still has plenty of upside.
Well put. Bradley is a game and team changer, which is beyond what Lee offers.
I like Lee but his biggest advantage over Bradley is durability.
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Yeah, Bradley is one of the more confusing players I've seen. Most of his stats suggest that he is average to below, yet he seems to make a huge difference in our veteran team.
I have to say his rib injury is worrying me. His level of play on defense just might not be suited for his body.
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Agree with most Bradley is better and has more potential. And he's the perfect guy to push Lee to greater heights. Danny said Avery's effect on defense is "KG-like", and what he meant is Avery's knack for getting everyone into high gear on defense, including Lee. He simply has "it" factor on the defensive end, very rare.
I love Lee backing up Avery. He can really thrive there and make a major contribution, and will undoubtedly score more than Bradley on plenty of nights, at least until Bradley can stay healthy for a good long stretch and get comfy on offense. I love this combo at SG.
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I think Bradley is better but by a very slight margin. The stats do neither of them justice. Bradley's half court pick up of his man really impresses people and for good reason. Lee plays excellent defense as well though, but it just doesn't stand out to people as much. I think Lee is consistently very underrated.
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Lee is much more valuable than Bradley because of injury concerns. Bradley's style of play while exciting and effective is not how you play a 100 game NBA season. As we've already seen it leads to too many injuries and missed games. I'll take Lee every day and twice on Sunday..
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started
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Bradley when healthy is better.
But I would be fine with either of them starting (and the other one traded) if the Celtics could get that impact big man to go next to KG.
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Bradley when healthy is better.
But I would be fine with either of them starting (and the other one traded) if the Celtics could get that impact big man to go next to KG.
"WHEN HEALTHY" are the key words
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
Just curious, but what's the point in discussing what conclusions people who aren't familiar with Bradley would come to by looking at his stats? People might also look at how weak on paper KG is compared to players like Brook Lopez and Al Jefferson and the like, but what would that prove?
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started
FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level
(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.
AKA...not that valuable.
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.
As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.
He's no Shumpert
... About what I expected to see. Interesting.
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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers or people associated with the league...even then I'm sure they all would admit he's better then Lee
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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry
I disagree with that.
Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet. It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)
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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry
I disagree with that.
Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet. It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)
yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.
A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.
Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.
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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry
I disagree with that.
Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet. It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)
yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.
A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.
Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.
Right. Teams aren't lining up to trade their allstar big men for Iman Shumpert either.
I think Knicks fans are just as high on Shumpert as we are on Bradley.
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started
FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level
(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.
AKA...not that valuable.
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.
As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.
He's no Shumpert
... About what I expected to see. Interesting.
I don't spend a ton of time on realgm but I've never been overly impressed with the posters. But in any case, most of those posts are people claiming that Bradley won't net you Cousins in a trade. Are you saying that Lee would get you Cousins? If not, those posts don't say anything about whether Bradley's better or worse than Lee.
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woo....those sound like honks for other teams not objective basketball observers sorry
I disagree with that.
Bradley doesn't have a huge body of work yet. It takes at least half a season before others start to take notice (unless the player is a rookie)
yea, those opinions sound about right to me. So far, Bradley is an undersized shooting guard who is injury prone, has offensive limitations, and is an excellent on the ball defender. He's got a great attitude, but that doesn't equate talent.
A great guy to have off the bench, certainly not someone worth trading a talented big man for or someone to build your team around. His durability is highly questionable.
Calling him the savior of the celtics and a guy who's value is equal to a Cousins or Josh Smith is crazy. It's like saying Earl Clark is the savior of the lakers and they should be able to trade him for Kevin Love.
Right. Teams aren't lining up to trade their allstar big men for Iman Shumpert either.
I think Knicks fans are just as high on Shumpert as we are on Bradley.
yes, Shumpert doesn't get you Cousins either, he also has limitations and injury history, and is undersized, although he's taller than Bradley
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Lee is a better offensive player. Bradley is a better defensive player.
So the question becomes, is Lee's offense that much better than Bradley's, and is Bradley's defense that much better than Lee's.
Both are great defenders. While I think Bradley is better, I'd have no problem if Doc decided to have Lee guard a Kobe or Wade with the game on the line.
On the other hand, Lee's offense is superior to Bradley's. Lee is a legit three point threat that teams will not want to leave open (despite his poor shooting this year). Bradley is great at cutting to the basket, and his jumper looks better, but I don't think teams are as worried about him on offense as they would with Lee.
If we judged the two on these comparisons, I'd say Lee's better AS A PLAYER. In terms of value to the team, though, I think Bradley is more important.
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Lee is a better offensive player. Bradley is a better defensive player.
So the question becomes, is Lee's offense that much better than Bradley's, and is Bradley's defense that much better than Lee's.
Both are great defenders. While I think Bradley is better, I'd have no problem if Doc decided to have Lee guard a Kobe or Wade with the game on the line.
On the other hand, Lee's offense is superior to Bradley's. Lee is a legit three point threat that teams will not want to leave open (despite his poor shooting this year). Bradley is great at cutting to the basket, and his jumper looks better, but I don't think teams are as worried about him on offense as they would with Lee.
If we judged the two on these comparisons, I'd say Lee's better AS A PLAYER. In terms of value to the team, though, I think Bradley is more important.
It's true that Lee has more of a body of work than Bradley but they're fairly comparable offensive players. Look at them from last year: http://bkref.com/tiny/JyH38
Not a down year or anything for Lee, but the numbers (points per 36, PER, TS%) are fairly even. Lee might be better on offense right now, whether he'll be playing better offense than Bradley in a month or two (assuming health for both players) is no better than a coin toss.
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So ... so far 10 Celtic fans out of 10 agree.. Bradley is better than Courtney Lee.
Fair enough. I wonder if the answer would be different if we asked fans outside of Boston.
I think they probably look at the fact Bradley is weak on paper and assume Lee is better. Really seems like Bradley is the Kendrick Perkins of shooting guards. His stats are tremendously weak, but he supposedly is an indispensable impact player.
Pretty sure no one outside of Boston, no one in the league and so on would think lee is better either.. lee is average with no upside and hasn't made a difference when he's started
FWIW, this is a small collection of how fans outside of Boston see Bradley via RealGM:
He's on a Kawhi Leonard type level
(I disagree... I think Leonard is a far more valuable prospect)
Not nearly as valuable as you think. He's a very good defender, but he's rather fragile. He's a good role player. He certainly wouldn't be the centerpiece in a deal for a guy lke Cousins or Smith. Contending teams could all use him, but he isn't nearly as valuable to a rebuilding operation.
I think AB is a classic example of home fans overvaluing one of their young players. The kid is a terrific perimeter defender, but he's too small IMO at 6'2 to be able to guard some of the bigger PGs and SGs, especially inside. He's not a great passer, not a great shooter, and doesn't rebound much. He's very quick and gives great effort, but he's not getting the Celtics Cousins, etc.
He has a 9 PER. The guy sucks.
He's about as valuable as an oft-injured, 6'2 tweener with a mediocre offensive game.
AKA...not that valuable.
A little more (valuable) than Tony Allen, slightly worse defensively but he can actually shoot reasonable well.
He's probably one of the most valuable 6th men out there. He's perfect for that role for any team...coming off the bench and being defensive beast on opposing guards.
As a Warrior fan I wouldn't trade Klay Thompson or Harrison Barnes for him.
He's no Shumpert
... About what I expected to see. Interesting.
I don't spend a ton of time on realgm but I've never been overly impressed with the posters. But in any case, most of those posts are people claiming that Bradley won't net you Cousins in a trade. Are you saying that Lee would get you Cousins? If not, those posts don't say anything about whether Bradley's better or worse than Lee.
I don't think he was "saying" anything, I think he was just providing outside perspective to how other fans view Bradley for our information. I found it very interesting actually. Surprising at first, but then very not surprising when I stepped back and thought about it. That's actually what made it very interesting to me.
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I know we're likely trying to package some of our assets to make an upgrade. We have some redundant players.
Is the consensus here that Avery Bradley is better than Courtney Lee? It's interesting, because if you weren't actually watching the games and just looking at stats, you'd probably assume Lee is superior. Certainly Lee has a better track record. 4 years of quality college ball followed by 4 years of quality pro ball. While Bradley has an overrated high school career, subpar freshman college season, a dreadful rookie NBA season and a phenomenal 15 game stretch in 2012 to make up his resume.
But even this month...
Lee - 7.6 points, 1.8 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 52% shooting, 38% from three and 80% from the line in only 17.7 minutes..
VS
Bradley - 8.1 points, 1.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.3 steals, 41% shooting, 29% from three and 25% from the line in 23.5 minutes
I said before the season that Lee was our best all around shooting guard... Bradley arguably having a slight edge on him defensively and the redundant Terry/Barbosa having a slight edge offensively... but I also gave bonus points to Lee for being 3 inches and 20 pounds bigger than both Bradley and Terry.
Thoughts on this subject?
I think the stat that would be most useful in illustrating Bradley's value would be the average time on the opponent shot clock when they finally get it across the half court line.
And if you think that isn't important, you need to go review what opponent eFG% are based on when in the clock a shot is taken. It is a huge factor.
(You can get that info at 82games.com)
I do like Lee a lot and hope we keep him - I like having a 1-2 punch of continuous 'plus' defense at the SG spot all game. And the fact is, Lee is simply nice to have when you need a bigger body at the 2. Plus he's a veteran now and (now that he's started to shoot better again) a solid, reliable player.
But over the long haul, Bradley will likely be a more valuable player.
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Lee is much more valuable than Bradley because of injury concerns. Bradley's style of play while exciting and effective is not how you play a 100 game NBA season. As we've already seen it leads to too many injuries and missed games. I'll take Lee every day and twice on Sunday..
Bradley's 'style of play' has had nothing to do with his injuries.
His ankle injury before his rookie year happened at a pre-draft workout.
His shoulder injuries last year were caused by congenital issues (which were (hopefully) addressed by the surgery).