Author Topic: Where Irving is Right  (Read 5032 times)

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Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 01:22:06 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

You cant duplicate this every time with 3 sec left

Like everything has to go right

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 01:30:53 PM »

Offline jbpats

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I dont think it was the incorrect play. It wasn't a great play to begin with.

The Celtics should have never been in that situation to begin with. Stop playing down to inferior teams and we win by 10 and are not talking about a missed final attempt.

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 02:58:47 PM »

Offline Big333223

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

TP. That was the play. When Brad Stevens draws up an OTO, you should probably run it. Not because it's guaranteed to work, but because it probably gives you a better chance than anything else.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 04:02:27 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

TP. That was the play. When Brad Stevens draws up an OTO, you should probably run it. Not because it's guaranteed to work, but because it probably gives you a better chance than anything else.

The play had several options. Kyrie via Horford was one. Tatum was one.

Is getting “the next Paul Pierce” a shot such a bad option?


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Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 04:03:29 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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We lost because we gave up a ton of points in the paint in the first quarter, because we don't have an interior defender with Baynes out and Williams sitting on the bench.

Why isnt Williams playing?

Why is it only when someone is injured he gets min?

Mainly our guard and wing depth. To satisfy everybody Stevens tries to give all the 'established' players with a potential ego a good amount of minutes (25+). That's why we play a lot of small ball line-ups.

In interviews Stevens has often praised Baynes for instance, but still kept his minutes limited without apparent reason. It tells me that Stevens values floor spacing and switching ability more than rim protection and rebounding.

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 05:28:05 PM »

Offline Big333223

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

TP. That was the play. When Brad Stevens draws up an OTO, you should probably run it. Not because it's guaranteed to work, but because it probably gives you a better chance than anything else.

The play had several options. Kyrie via Horford was one. Tatum was one.

Is getting “the next Paul Pierce” a shot such a bad option?

On balance, it might not be a "bad" option but it doesn't look like it was the first option and I think that first option was a lot better than putting Tatum on an island while he's being pretty well covered. 
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Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 05:35:39 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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We lost because we gave up a ton of points in the paint in the first quarter, because we don't have an interior defender with Baynes out and Williams sitting on the bench.

Why isnt Williams playing?

Why is it only when someone is injured he gets min?

Mainly our guard and wing depth. To satisfy everybody Stevens tries to give all the 'established' players with a potential ego a good amount of minutes (25+). That's why we play a lot of small ball line-ups.

In interviews Stevens has often praised Baynes for instance, but still kept his minutes limited without apparent reason. It tells me that Stevens values floor spacing and switching ability more than rim protection and rebounding.

well then, this is bad coaching

Magic were pouncing the Celts on the inside all game

right in your face this is happening but still CBS was reluctant to protect the paint

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 05:55:50 PM »

Offline Chief

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I dont like how Kyrie handled it after Tatum missed.  It looked like Antonio Brown when Big Ben throws it to JuJu Smith-Schuster.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 06:03:14 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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I dont like how Kyrie handled it after Tatum missed.  It looked like Antonio Brown when Big Ben throws it to JuJu Smith-Schuster.

Not sure if he was angry at Tatum.

Pretty sure he was REAL angry with Hayward.

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 06:10:26 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I dont like how Kyrie handled it after Tatum missed.  It looked like Antonio Brown when Big Ben throws it to JuJu Smith-Schuster.

Not sure if he was angry at Tatum.

Pretty sure he was REAL angry with Hayward.

He was angry at Hayward

Hayward was about to give him 5 and Irving was giving it to him

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 06:11:03 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

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Geez, look there were only 2.9 seconds. Kyrie coming off a Horford screen would've been a contested shot if he had even got a good look.

It's not like there were many options on the play and I have no problem with Tatum taking that closer to the basket shot. Had Tatum hit the shot would Kyrie be upset?

Brad needs to tell the vets to stop showing everyone up and just play. They've all missed shots. Why can't the vets tell us why they lose big leads.

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 06:19:00 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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We lost because we gave up a ton of points in the paint in the first quarter, because we don't have an interior defender with Baynes out and Williams sitting on the bench.


Thank You TP

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 06:25:02 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The truly great ones don't blame others, but then again, he has been around LeBron.

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 06:48:09 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

TP. That was the play. When Brad Stevens draws up an OTO, you should probably run it. Not because it's guaranteed to work, but because it probably gives you a better chance than anything else.

The play had several options. Kyrie via Horford was one. Tatum was one.

Is getting “the next Paul Pierce” a shot such a bad option?
It is a really bad option if you are trying to retain a player like Kyrie next year.  Horford fully expected to receive the ball there, that is perfectly clear by his reaction following the inbound to Tatum.  Hayward made a tactical error 2 seconds into the developing play.  Kyrie let Hayward know that is unacceptable as it should be under the circumstances. 

Re: Where Irving is Right
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 06:58:40 PM »

Online Roy H.

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This link contains video of the play in question. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/why-was-kyrie-irving-so-angry-celtics-final-play

Hayward chooses to pass to Tatum rather than inbounding to Horford because Tatum gets a step on Iwundu.  I don't have an issue with this decision.  The problem is that Tatum doesn't use his advantage.  He slows and cuts toward the corner to make the catch 18 feet from the basket, allowing Iwundu to catch up, and his only real choice is the play for the shot that he ended up getting - a contested fadeaway 18 footer.  I don't know if this is what Stevens wanted, or if this is just Tatum being Tatum. 

I would have wanted Tatum to cut to the baseline instead of the corner.  It's a more difficult angle for Hayward, but it gives Tatum more options.  He can play for a much shorter jumpshot if he chooses.  Or, he can drive to the rim.  Tatum's length would make it difficult for Iwundu to contest from behind, but he'd probably have to finish around Isaac's help defense.  Personally I'd take my chances with that.

Ok well if not for this

What would have Irving done better?

He was like 7 ft away from Hayward, with his man stuck to him like glue.   When the ref gives Hayward the ball, Irving is not even trying to get away from his defender

I don't understand in this situation, why Stevens wouldn't revert to the old double/triple pick strategy (both Irving and Tatum running around the screens) .  And two players who set the picks (Horford and Williams for example) rolling to the basket for an alley/catch fake and shoot near the basket opportunity

just *facepalm*

The Celtics have run this play before, with both Kyrie and IT.  Kyrie is not supposed to take off until Horford receives the inbounds pass.  The timing with less than three seconds would have been tight but manageable.

I saw a twitter post that very clearly showed the setup/execution on previous versions of this play, but unfortunately I didn't save it and I don't feel like sorting through twitter crap to find it again.

Yes but I believe Horford was covered tightly as well

You want to excute this but its not going to happen all the time

With 3 sec left how easy is it to make two quick passes and get a clean shot off?

Need at least 5 sec

No.  Don't need nearly that much time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/HalfCourtHoops/status/1084278355367731209

Watch the first play in this clip - it's probably exactly what Brad drew up against the Magic.  Also, notice that only two seconds came off of the clock in this instance.  There was enough time to run this play. 

Rather than waiting for this to develop, Hayward saw that Tatum had a step on Iwundu and chose to go to him instead.

TP. That was the play. When Brad Stevens draws up an OTO, you should probably run it. Not because it's guaranteed to work, but because it probably gives you a better chance than anything else.

The play had several options. Kyrie via Horford was one. Tatum was one.

Is getting “the next Paul Pierce” a shot such a bad option?
It is a really bad option if you are trying to retain a player like Kyrie next year.  Horford fully expected to receive the ball there, that is perfectly clear by his reaction following the inbound to Tatum.  Hayward made a tactical error 2 seconds into the developing play.  Kyrie let Hayward know that is unacceptable as it should be under the circumstances.
If Kyrie leaves because a teammate took a last second shot, good riddance.

It’s not unacceptable at all. Tatum is an excellent player who can make shots.  He took a makeable shot.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes