Poll

Who do you have as MVP so far? (3 votes possible)

Giannis Antetokounmpo (Milwaukee Bucks)
25 (33.8%)
Stephen Curry (Golden State Warriors)
5 (6.8%)
Anthony Davis (New Orleans Pelicans)
4 (5.4%)
Kevin Durant (Golden State Warriors)
3 (4.1%)
Joël Embiid (Philadelphia 76ers)
2 (2.7%)
Paul George (Oklahoma City Thunder)
1 (1.4%)
Tobias Harris (Los Angeles Clippers)
0 (0%)
Kyrie Irving (Boston Celtics)
4 (5.4%)
LeBron James (Los Angeles Lakers)
15 (20.3%)
Nikola Jokic (Denver Nuggets)
0 (0%)
Kawhi Leonard (Toronto Raptors)
14 (18.9%)
Damian Lillard (Portland Trailblazers)
0 (0%)
Nikola Vucevic (Orlando Magic)
0 (0%)
Russell Westbrook (Oklahoma City Thunder)
1 (1.4%)
James Harden (Houston Rockets)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Voting closed: March 19, 2019, 05:11:21 PM

Author Topic: MVP race 2018/2019  (Read 3358 times)

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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 02:02:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Yall have gotten too used to Westbrook averaging triple doubles cuz.... WESTBROOK IS AVERAGING A TRIPLE DOUBLE.  Yet not a single vote for even a top 3 until mine.

If you particularly don't want to include him, that's fine.  I'm sure you could come up with pretty good reasons.  But to think that almost nobody included him shocks me.  Did I mention that he's averaging a triple double?  And his team has the best win percentage in the West?  (12-5 when he plays, 5-3 when he's missed)

Westbrook is the most overrated player in the league.  I’d rather have someone like Damian Lillard on my team and I’d certainly take kyrie over him.   I’m still waitin I see if Westbrook will finally lead a team to 50 wins with his selfish stat padding.

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 03:47:33 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 05:40:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 06:01:57 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Curious if when people talk about how terrible Cleveland is this year they gloss over the fact that they haven’t had their first or second best player from last year (Lebron and love). Hill, Korver and jr Smith are all off the team and they are giving major minutes to a raw rookie point guard? It’s not the same team at all

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 06:03:38 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.

Was Lebron off on number better last year? (I don’t know where you are getting these numbers so can’t look them up)

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2018, 06:18:31 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.

To estimate a championship caliber team, net point differential is a solid predictive metric. And right now at least, the Bucks are #1 in the NBA at +9.8 and the Lakers are top 12-15 at +2.2.

Analytically, the Bucks are significantly better than the Lakers. One team looks like a contender, and one team is in the mix to make the playoffs. And Giannis drives the Bucks as much as Lebron drives the Lakers, though he does have better teammates.

I don’t argue with your opinion that winning matters most. I just don’t think the improvement in wins is the end all be all way to measure that. It’s important though.
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2018, 07:02:41 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.

To estimate a championship caliber team, net point differential is a solid predictive metric. And right now at least, the Bucks are #1 in the NBA at +9.8 and the Lakers are top 12-15 at +2.2.

Analytically, the Bucks are significantly better than the Lakers. One team looks like a contender, and one team is in the mix to make the playoffs. And Giannis drives the Bucks as much as Lebron drives the Lakers, though he does have better teammates.

I don’t argue with your opinion that winning matters most. I just don’t think the improvement in wins is the end all be all way to measure that. It’s important though.
I agree 100% that in determining an MVP, that there are a lot of factors and you should pick just one. I was just showing Moranis that one stat, on/off court differential isn't the end all be all. I think wins created is a great stat. Take that with Lebron's counting stats, his surrounding talent, and overall effect on the franchise and I think Lebron is the choice.

But I fully expect Giannis to get it. The voters love voting for different stars. MJ and Lebron should both been MVP just about every year they were in the league. But the voters gave them to Malone, Barkley, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Magic his last MVP.


Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2018, 07:24:43 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.

Was Lebron off on number better last year? (I don’t know where you are getting these numbers so can’t look them up)
2.5 which isn't all that surprising as the Cavs were a mess with all sorts of roster upheaval

EDIT: That is per 100 possessions.  Just wanted to clear that up in case there was confusion.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:17:40 PM by Moranis »
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2018, 07:31:42 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.
it isn't the same comparison though as Lebron switched teams and joined as a free agent (so the Lakers didn't have to give up anyone of any real value).  On/off absolutely shows affect on the win column as it shows how much better or worse your team is when you are in the game or on the bench. 
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2018, 07:36:31 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Giannis, AD & Kawhi for me. Giannis and Kawhi are pretty obvious. Awesome levels of play on two contending teams.

AD isn’t on a contender really, but he’s roughly averaging 27/12/5/3/2. Just crazy numbers.

Can’t see how people put LeBron there when he is perhaps the single laziest defender in the whole Association. Worse than Harden at this stage
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2018, 07:48:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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MJ and Lebron should both been MVP just about every year they were in the league. But the voters gave them to Malone, Barkley, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Magic his last MVP.


The thing is, there is no "should have been" with the MVP award because there is no set criteria for the award. 

That's why we're able to debate it every year.
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2018, 08:32:33 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.
it isn't the same comparison though as Lebron switched teams and joined as a free agent (so the Lakers didn't have to give up anyone of any real value).  On/off absolutely shows affect on the win column as it shows how much better or worse your team is when you are in the game or on the bench.
Not sure how Lebron getting to the Lakers matters.

So on off shows effect on win column. Tell that to Anthony Davis in 2016-17 in New Orleans. Demarcus Cousins in multiple years in Sacramento. Kevin Love in multiple years in Minnesota. Joel Embiid in 2016-17 in Philadelphia. Carmelo Anthony in 2013-14 in New York. I could go on forever.

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2018, 08:35:59 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Giannis, AD & Kawhi for me. Giannis and Kawhi are pretty obvious. Awesome levels of play on two contending teams.

AD isn’t on a contender really, but he’s roughly averaging 27/12/5/3/2. Just crazy numbers.

Can’t see how people put LeBron there when he is perhaps the single laziest defender in the whole Association. Worse than Harden at this stage.

You make a very good point here. LeBron is still putting up great numbers as he's always done, but his defense is atrocious. I think he's seriously declining and needs to take breaks on defense to have enough energy to carry the offense.

That's why I believe that the rumours that LA might make a trade for John Wall are correct. If they do that then LeBron can also sitback a bit on offense and just choose his moments to take over, while Wall is the primary playmaker. It's also one of his last seasons where he could have a (slight) chance at a title, so he's probably really pushing management to make moves for short term success.

Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2018, 09:08:09 PM »

Offline Big333223

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If Lebron keeps up what he's doing and the Lakers win more than, like, 54 games. I think he might have to be my MVP. Which feels like a crazy thing for me to write because Giannis is averaging peak Kevin Garnett numbers right now for the team with the best point differential in the league.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:27:28 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: MVP race 2018/2019
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2018, 09:17:06 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Without LeBron, that is a sad Lakers team. He has completely transformed them and made them a playoff team. Gotta be LeBron.
Lebron's on/off differential is only 4.  Giannis is 14.  Immense difference is value there.
One stat means nothing without context. And if I had an MVP vote I certainly would not make it based on one stat. How's this for one stat? At the end of the year whichever team increased their wins the most from last year, LA or Milwaukee, their player will get my vote. Seems as pertinent a stat as your's.
Come on now, you don't honestly believe that those are equivalent do you?  And sure context matters, but here's the thing Giannis has better counting stats and his team is much better when he is on the floor then when he is off the floor (more than Lebron's team).  No one stat is going to give the whole picture, but when looking at value, the one I've always put the most stock in is how much better is the team with that player in the game then when that player is on the bench.  That is basically the definition of value.
Why are they not equivalent? Your stat, which you find important is value on the court. Mine is value in the win column. Example of why your stat isn't always reliable, DeMarcus Cousins had great on/off court stats as well as great counting stats. It never translated to wins.

As far as I am concerned, in basketball, the most important stat is wins. You feel differently. Cool.
it isn't the same comparison though as Lebron switched teams and joined as a free agent (so the Lakers didn't have to give up anyone of any real value).  On/off absolutely shows affect on the win column as it shows how much better or worse your team is when you are in the game or on the bench.
Not sure how Lebron getting to the Lakers matters.

So on off shows effect on win column. Tell that to Anthony Davis in 2016-17 in New Orleans. Demarcus Cousins in multiple years in Sacramento. Kevin Love in multiple years in Minnesota. Joel Embiid in 2016-17 in Philadelphia. Carmelo Anthony in 2013-14 in New York. I could go on forever.
Lebron to the Lakers matters because you want to show the win improvement in the Lakers, but then want to use the Bucks win comparison when Giannis didn't join them last offseason (and thus he is already factored into the prior year).  The baselines aren't the same.  that is why you can't do it that way.

As for the rest, that just shows how bad the rest of those teams were, but all of those teams were significantly better when there star was in the game.  That is value.  The 17 Pelicans were 9.4 points better when Davis on the floor (per 100 possessions).  In actual numbers Davis was a +1.1 when in the game while the team overall ended up -2.1 on the season.  So because the team was so bad, was Davis not valuable.  I mean that is what you seem to be arguing, which just seems strange to me.  Just because a team is bad, doesn't mean a player isn't valuable or doesn't contribute to wins. 
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