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PEDs / Steroid in Sports: Where Do You Stand?
Roy H.:
Players in every sport have always looked for an edge. There's a saying that I think I've heard in NASCAR, which is "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". In baseball, we've seen corked bats, spits balls, amphetamines, and then steroids followed by designer drugs. In football, we've heard of everything from taping opponents' practices to overinflating / underinflating footballs, to lots and lots of steroids and PEDs. It's probably fair to say that in every sport, a lot more athletes are juicing than are reported.
Is there an argument that certain PEDs should be legalized and monitored, rather than strictly forbidden? There are at least a few arguments in favor. They can help injuries heal faster. In fact, I think that healing is one of the foremost reasons guys use. All professional sports cause significant wear and tear on somebody's body. Even beyond the season-defining injuries, there are muscle aches, bruises, etc.
It also levels the playing field. Everybody would have access to similar care, without being accused of cheating. Players wouldn't be faced with an ethical choice about whether to break rules to keep up with their peers. At the same time, players would be receiving prescription drugs, presumably with all of the quality control that goes into them. They wouldn't be buying sketchy, illegally-sourced drugs.
And lastly, it would end some hypocrisy in sports, where certain players are treated as "clean" and others as "dirty", without a lot of evidence. It would also show fans that PEDs alone don't make a player great.
(Inspiration for this thread today: watching Roger Clemens give pitching analysis during Sox vs. Yankees. The man's mind and attention to detail is other-worldly. His thoughts on technique and mechanics just show he's absolutely brilliant, even among his peers. Additionally, he had a legendary work ethic. He is one of the top-two pitchers of his era, along with Greg Maddox. And yet, a lot of fans are reductive, thinking he simply juiced his way to greatness.)
MarcusSmartFanClub:
I agree. Clemens, Arod, and Bonds are first ballot hall of famers. Baseball writers take themselves and baseball too seriously. McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds we’re great for the sport in the late 90s.
greg683x:
Not trying to derail the thread here but there are things that I’ve always had questions about regarding Clemens and maybe some folks here can provide some insight or offer their opinions since they are Sox fans.
Rogers last 3 to 4 years in Boston, he seemed to hit a wall. Sub .500 record, and not an awful ERA but definitely an inflated one when compared to previous years.
Then, poof, the following year he signs with Toronto, he’s winning 20 games with the best ERA he’s had in 7 years. He was dominant. The purple elephant in the room is that Jose Canseco was his teammate in Toronto, and according to Canseco, was personally injecting him with the juice bc he couldn’t do it.
The easy explanation is that it must’ve been the juice right? But I don’t know enough about Clemens final few years in Boston to know why there was such a stark difference in the numbers.
I think regulated use of certain drugs to help rehabilitate from injuries is fine. I know that’s what Andy Pettite admitted to. But abusing other drugs that would give you such an edge that would cause such a significant spike in numbers, the spike that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and possibly Clemens had, is just too much, I consider it cheating at that point.
celticsclay:
--- Quote from: Roy H. on August 15, 2022, 08:13:16 AM ---Players in every sport have always looked for an edge. There's a saying that I think I've heard in NASCAR, which is "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". In baseball, we've seen corked bats, spits balls, amphetamines, and then steroids followed by designer drugs. In football, we've heard of everything from taping opponents' practices to overinflating / underinflating footballs, to lots and lots of steroids and PEDs. It's probably fair to say that in every sport, a lot more athletes are juicing than are reported.
Is there an argument that certain PEDs should be legalized and monitored, rather than strictly forbidden? There are at least a few arguments in favor. They can help injuries heal faster. In fact, I think that healing is one of the foremost reasons guys use. All professional sports cause significant wear and tear on somebody's body. Even beyond the season-defining injuries, there are muscle aches, bruises, etc.
It also levels the playing field. Everybody would have access to similar care, without being accused of cheating. Players wouldn't be faced with an ethical choice about whether to break rules to keep up with their peers. At the same time, players would be receiving prescription drugs, presumably with all of the quality control that goes into them. They wouldn't be buying sketchy, illegally-sourced drugs.
And lastly, it would end some hypocrisy in sports, where certain players are treated as "clean" and others as "dirty", without a lot of evidence. It would also show fans that PEDs alone don't make a player great.
(Inspiration for this thread today: watching Roger Clemens give pitching analysis during Sox vs. Yankees. The man's mind and attention to detail is other-worldly. His thoughts on technique and mechanics just show he's absolutely brilliant, even among his peers. Additionally, he had a legendary work ethic. He is one of the top-two pitchers of his era, along with Greg Maddox. And yet, a lot of fans are reductive, thinking he simply juiced his way to greatness.)
--- End quote ---
Did Clemens really have a legendary work ethic his last 4 years or so with the Sox? I thought he was supposed to be pretty out of shape at that point and just mailing it in.
Roy H.:
--- Quote from: greg683x on August 15, 2022, 10:34:53 AM ---Not trying to derail the thread here but there are things that I’ve always had questions about regarding Clemens and maybe some folks here can provide some insight or offer their opinions since they are Sox fans.
Rogers last 3 to 4 years in Boston, he seemed to hit a wall. Sub .500 record, and not an awful ERA but definitely an inflated one when compared to previous years.
Then, poof, the following year he signs with Toronto, he’s winning 20 games with the best ERA he’s had in 7 years. He was dominant. The purple elephant in the room is that Jose Canseco was his teammate in Toronto, and according to Canseco, was personally injecting him with the juice bc he couldn’t do it.
The easy explanation is that it must’ve been the juice right? But I don’t know enough about Clemens final few years in Boston to know why there was such a stark difference in the numbers.
I think regulated use of certain drugs to help rehabilitate from injuries is fine. I know that’s what Andy Pettite admitted to. But abusing other drugs that would give you such an edge that would cause such a significant spike in numbers, the spike that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and possibly Clemens had, is just too much, I consider it cheating at that point.
--- End quote ---
I think some of it was that the team sucked. Clemens has been my favorite player since forever, and during that four year period, the bullpen was constantly costing him wins. During that 1993 to 1996 period, he led the league in Ks his last year. In 1994, he led the league in ERA+ and in hits allowed per nine innings. He struggled with some injuries during that time period, but really it was the team around him. He went 40-39 despite being a very good pitcher; in '94 and '96, he was a top-7 pitcher based upon numbers outside of wins.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml
Just go down to his appearance on leaderboards.
When he hit Toronto, I think he felt challenged by Duquette's "twilight of his career" remarks and contract snub. So, he busted his ass even more than he had before. At some point during that time, it's very likely that he juiced, although the theory is that he did that through his trainer rather than through Canseco.
I think PEDs were the biggest factor in improving Clemens longevity; as any of us who have lived through their mid-thirties into their forties knows, the body starts to break down. But, I don't attribute Clemens' Toronto seasons completely due to PEDs. He hit the ground running there, and I don't think even his trainer says he was juicing the summer before signing with the Jays.
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