Author Topic: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown  (Read 17093 times)

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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2021, 12:36:50 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Other than the fact that it has been repeated endlessly, why exactly is Tatum's ceiling higher?

My take is that Tatum submitted to a max NBA training regimen since age 13. Did the most dedicated possible path through AAU/Duke. Nothing but basketball. Jaylen decided to also be a person for a while. So while Tatum is 1 1/2 years younger, he's been 100% dedicated to training for a pro career longer. When he was a rookie and Brown was a 2nd year pro, Tatum had put in more hours in the gym working on his toolkit, and everyone decided he was more talented.

Both guys have been very dedicated since they became pros, and it shows. The progression is there for both. But Jaylen has improved more, and he is considerably more athletic, and it's starting to appear that he is a bit more competitive too. Twenty games from now, it could very well be obvious that Jaylen is the alpha on this team.

I'm curious as to what you base the bolded on?

But I think Tatum is labelled as having a higher ceiling because he's more naturally gifted. To me, Jayson has an old man's game - the footwork, the shot - he was going to have a place in the NBA even if he didn't evolve into an All-Star. Whereas some guys come into basketball as hyper athletes but don't necessarily have a good feel for the game and have to learn it. There's nothing wrong with that, some guys like Giannis and Butler can get there. On the other hand, you see guys like Josh Jackson wash out. I don't necessarily know if it's about a higher ceiling for either guy because they both seem really committed to putting the work in, but I would say the floor for Tatum was higher than the floor for Brown.

Another good point = Tommy Point.

I love Jaylen this year. I hope he can keep it up with Kemba & Tatum both back. If he takes a step back, I think we need to be patient but also have a plan in place to ensure he is a focal point as much as JT.
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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2021, 12:39:39 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Obviously the scoring is great but what I'm liking most is the passing and he's getting to the FT line at a nice clip so far. He should be an all star this year.

All Star should be in the bag. He deserves all NBA at this pace, IMO.
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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2021, 06:08:09 PM »

Offline footey

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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2021, 06:54:19 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Brown must be a really hard worker, this kind of improvement doesn't come naturally.
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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2021, 07:43:32 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Not only is he a superstar, he is a leader. Check this out:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/23/sports/jaylen-brown-is-doing-his-job-his-celtics-teammates-though-are-coming-up-way-short/

Quote
Jaylen Brown left another Celtics’ loss, one in which he scored 42 points, saying he needed to do more. That’s admirable of the rising star to admit, but it’s not the truth.

Brown needs more help, and during this stretch of games without cohort Jayson Tatum, he didn’t get much at all.

Tatum is expected to return from COVID-19 protocol Sunday against the Cleveland Cavaliers and that will obviously help, but the Celtics’ supporting cast has been a major letdown this season and it was again evident in Friday night’s 122-110 loss to the Philadelphia 76ers at Wells Fargo Center.

Brown against was brilliant but nobody else was even close. Kemba Walker scored 19 points but the Celtics were a minus-21 when he was on the floor. Marcus Smart scored 20 points but it required 17 shots. At a time when the Celtics need their complements to play well, they are failing miserably.

The 76ers shot nearly 56 percent and tattooed the Celtics for 73 second-half points. Brown said he would take it upon himself to singlehandedly improve the defense. It’s an admirable objective but one that shouldn’t be necessary to tackle on his own.

“A lot of that is on me,” Brown said of the defensive effort. “I’m one of the leaders and captains on this team and I got to be a better leader on that side of the ball. I got to lead these guys defensively. We’ve got to get after teams. We have to have that villainous mentality on defense. Just really making people’s nights a living hell. I can do that and be great offensively at the same time; it just takes a level on conditioning.”

Again, that wouldn’t be necessary if more he received more contributions from his teammates.

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2021, 04:43:29 PM »

Offline gouki88

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2021, 05:05:45 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
Same Brown. He’s underpaid now and was kind of lowballed by Danny a year ago

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2021, 05:30:59 PM »

Offline gouki88

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
Same Brown. He’s underpaid now and was kind of lowballed by Danny a year ago
What are you on about? He was offered barely below the max deal. Not Danny's fault Brown didn't get any accolades and thus push his max up.
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SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2021, 06:24:29 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
Same Brown. He’s underpaid now and was kind of lowballed by Danny a year ago
What are you on about? He was offered barely below the max deal. Not Danny's fault Brown didn't get any accolades and thus push his max up.
Don’t really want to argue but Murray got the 5 yr max from Denver without much negotiation. They were basically equally valuable players at the time. I was pitching at the time brown has to get the max because if he hits restricted agency he would get the max from someone (see the contract that Hayward got).. anyway I was just hoping we can offer Jaylen (2 years from now) same money giannis got ... that’s all

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2021, 06:27:48 PM »

Offline gouki88

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
Same Brown. He’s underpaid now and was kind of lowballed by Danny a year ago
What are you on about? He was offered barely below the max deal. Not Danny's fault Brown didn't get any accolades and thus push his max up.
Don’t really want to argue but Murray got the 5 yr max from Denver without much negotiation. They were basically equally valuable players at the time. I was pitching at the time brown has to get the max because if he hits restricted agency he would get the max from someone (see the contract that Hayward got).. anyway I was just hoping we can offer Jaylen (2 years from now) same money giannis got ... that’s all
I just don't get your point. The example you keep bringing up of Giannis is funny, because he didn't sign a rookie max deal, but signed a 4/100 (similar to Jaylen's 4/106). Lo and behold, Giannis is now locked up until 2026
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2021, 06:46:03 PM »

Online Kernewek

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Seeing Jaylen with 42 after three quarters made me think that on that night against that team, if Steven's played JB in the 4th, could JB have broken Bird's record?
At the rate he was going at if he’d played 36 minutes (7 minutes in the 4th) he would have got to around 52. If he played 41 minutes (the whole last quarter) he would have gotten around 59.

So he would have been somewhat close, but I don’t think Brad has ever let someone play 12 minutes in a 4th quarter of a game that was decided.

Seeing Jaylen with 42 after three quarters made me think that on that night against that team, if Steven's played JB in the 4th, could JB have broken Bird's record?

I think Stevens did the right thing not playing JB in the 4th.  Give the guys at the end of the bench some playing time and avoid an injury to JB when the game is not on the line.

Completely agree with both of you. It was the right move to sit Brown and play youngsters. My thought was more whether it may have been possible he could have done it.

The variable which was in play in both Mchale and Bird’s record-breaking games is that at a certain point teammates were feeding them and it became purely about scoring points - for Bird in particular it was about breaking McHale’s record just made a few days earlier.  So if the 4th was about feeding Jaylen and letting him try to score he definitely could have done it.   

I don’t know this for sure but I’m guessing that at some point in Kobe’s 80 point (or whatever it was) game and Wilt’s 100 pointer it became just feed them and watch them score.

Most of Kobe’s 80 point game is on YouTube, and the tape agrees with my memory: the second half is an incredibly disdainful display of a guy who thinks his entire team is beneath him and he’s the only good player on the floor.

It’s amazing to watch, in some ways, but the most remarkable part about it might be the complete absence of joy.
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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2021, 07:55:25 PM »

Offline Somebody

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So are there still doubters that Jaylen Brown is ascending into superstardom? Or do you feel he has to do this all year long. I've been convinced since the 2018 playoffs that he would someday reach those lofty heights. It's a pleasure watching it happen right before our eyes.

And he is starting to garner the attention of the national people as well. I think we could be looking at All-NBA and All-Defense for him this year. Not first teams but still. That would be impressive.
if these happen can we offer Brown the same extension that Giannis got? I’m just worried it might be tough to retain him ..
I mean convince him to stay
You mean the same Brown who is contracted until 2024?
Same Brown. He’s underpaid now and was kind of lowballed by Danny a year ago
What are you on about? He was offered barely below the max deal. Not Danny's fault Brown didn't get any accolades and thus push his max up.
He was offered something like 5-8 million below his max per year iirc without any options and escalator clauses to take it to supermax territory (even if he hits every single one of his bonus clauses it'll be below the normal max), it was a bargain deal back then and it's even more of a bargain now.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2021, 08:26:46 PM »

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With the season getting closer to the 20 game mark, more robust +/- metrics have been released, including this RPM substitute (RPM's creator left ESPN so the stat is going to be pretty wonky from now on) that "outperforms" its relatives. From the writeup it looks really good if I'm not missing anything: it looks like a form of PI RAPM (PI stands for prior-informed, it uses data from past seasons to stabilise the numbers and remove some of the noise in +/- data, RAPM performed poorly in this test because it was NPI) that blends in box stats and tracking data.

Anyways how is this related to the thread? Jaylen performs really well in this metric, he's 22nd with a +3.5 rating even though EPM underrates his defensive value in the regular season, as usual with +/- data. Obviously people can always quibble with some of the names in these metrics (eg. Thomas Bryant is ranked 21st), but these metrics aren't meant to be a perfect measure of player goodness: they aim to give a somewhat accurate approximation to a player's situational value on his squad, something that raw on/off fails to do (raw on/off can have big errors even though it usually pins down the directionality of a player's impact barring unique circumstances like Jaylen on the Celtics where Smart and Tatum can replace most of what he brings to the table as well as Stevens' propensity to play him in wonky lineups and sometimes even roles that deflate his on/off).
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2021, 07:45:10 PM »

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Jaylen Brown has been such an amazing player to watch this season. When he first came into the league, I thought he had the Jeff Green athleticism where he can get to anywhere he wanted but the focus wasn't quite there. He has taken that all to a whole other new level. He has been aggressive offensively and defensively.

What I am liking most about his game is how he's got this beautiful choreography and 101 one moves that is giving anything he wants. He is two steps ahead of the defender with those pull-up jumpers or taking it to the hole.

The best comparison that I can think of (not in term of the actual moves but the approach to being taking those shots) is Al Jefferson, where you have all these different moves so it's just a matter of which ones will you use to give you the best shot. AJ was great at that with post moves and Jaylen Brown is getting to be great while attacking the basket.
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Re: The Superstar Ascension of Jaylen Brown
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2021, 01:08:09 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Jaylen starting to cement his position as a real superstar in this league.

40 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists. 17-20 shooting, 3-5 from three, 3-3 from the stripe.

When he goes home this summer and gets even better, once again, he probably will be looking at All-NBA level of superstar.