CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: tgreanier on November 23, 2012, 12:52:40 AM
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Look, it is easy to say offensive rebounds would be the difference maker for the Celtics. And in some games, you would be 100% correct. However, making offensive rebounding the ultimate statistical marker of a good team is silly. Like Doc said, the Spurs had only 6...but nobody was worried about it. I am not in any way saying the team is ok as is and we should just go on like this, but focusing on offensive boards is not the key to winning.
The biggest issue with the Celtics is because they are not focusing on offensive rebounds, they absolutely have to be able to play solid defense the bulk of every quarter. If they play defense like they have been - in very brief spurts we find decent defense - then no amount of offensive boards (realistically speaking) will make a difference to many outcomes.
What drives me crazy is people thinking getting a big center will be the key because it will increase offensive rebounds. That would not be my goal - it would be to get some size in the middle, someone other than KG who clearly does not want to play the spot - to fill lanes on offense and defense. Sure, a big guy will get some offensive boards, but more importantly he will be a steady option for Rondo, a deterrent to the in-the-paint points we see way too often from opponents (I mean seriously, the Pistons?) and something for the other team to seriously worry about.
The Celtics were not a good offensive rebounding team in 2007-2008 either - and have never been ranked high under Doc. Why? His philosophy is based on positional situations. When you crash the glass - the traditional "follow your shot, man" mentality - you might find yourself getting more offensive boards, maybe even more second chance points and if everything lines up right, this new part of the offense could win some games. However, in the majority of situations, Doc is basing his ideas on the fact that crashing the boards rarely ends up as points against a decent defense and will far too often lead to his own defense being in 4-5 situations. The guy who crashes the boards will fail to get the rebound a lot more than he will get it (over the course of a season) and in those cases, he is out of position for defense, lagging behind when the other team pushes the floor and leading to easy buckets for any opponent.
So you will say something like, "But dummy, look at the games we have seen - the other teams have gotten so many second chance points, those come from offensive rebounds!" I grant you that - but this is not a testament to the power of the offensive rebound, but instead an indictment of the defensive breakdowns the Celtics have had all season. If you look back at all the games this year, the gobs of second chance points have not been because of opponents crashing the glass, focused on offensive rebounds, but instead on lackadaisical defense and guys not being in the right position.
I know this is an unpopular opinion and like most sports-related arguments, there is no way to prove it one way or another.
In short, I want to see Ainge go out and get talent for this team, I would especially love size, but I do not want to see Doc turn his team into a worse defense by upping the importance of offensive rebounds.
Let the flaming begin ;)
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When you said doc was right i was expecting this thread to be alot more stupid than it was but i agree with alot of what you said.
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When you said doc was right i was expecting this thread to be alot more stupid than it was but i agree with alot of what you said.
Lol, glad it was only a little stupid :)
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What really bothers me is our defensive rebounding. It's not that we're terrible, it's just that we need to improve.
I agree with you, offensive rebounding isn't that important. We're overall pretty efficient offensively, so our points should come from running sets and in transition, not second-chance points. A couple every now and then would be nice, though.
When this team gets it together defensively, and I think they will, opponents' possessions will likely result in a missed shot. Our guys need to be ready and willing to box out and rebound. I know they want to run, but you need the ball first. If we are giving up on offensive boards, we need to show commitment on the other end. Like I said, this team has the potential to be a very good defensive squad, but you have to close out the possession the right way. So far, I've only seen Sullinger give full effort in boxing out.
If we could get more defensive boards, then that leads to less second-chance points for the opposition, as well as more fast-break opportunities for our team.
TP for saying something about this. Personally, I'd like to know why people make such a fuss about offensive boards. Do you really think get extra possessions every now and then is going to make us any more of a contender?
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I agree and it's something I've been hinting at a little in one of the other threads a little while ago.
We could certainly use more EFFORT on rebounds, but tha's not our problem. We were a poor offensive rebounding team in 2008 and won a title. We were a poor offensive rebounding team last year and made the ECF. Hell we were a horrible rebounding team in general last season and we not only made the ECF (in case that was some kind of fluke) but were also one of the top teams in the NBA after the All Star break.
So what is the difference?
In 2008 we were very good offensively...but last year our offense was horrid.
In neither of those years did we have an especially great bench - our bench last year was one of the weakest in the NBA with all the injuries.
The common thing here is defense. Both 2008 and in the second half of last season, we had one of the greatest defenses not just of the season, but of all time.
Last season we had truly elite defense - everything else (offense, rebounding, turnovers) we were among the worst teams in the league, so that should give you some idea of how important defense on it's own is.
This year we are equally bad at rebounding but our turnovers are much better and our offense is much better - our team is arguably much worse. Why? Defense.
As long as you play defense with 110% effort you give yourself a chance to win any game, against any opponent. Avery is going to help a LOT when he returns - will that be enough? Not sure. We'll see.
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What really bothers me is our defensive rebounding. It's not that we're terrible, it's just that we need to improve.
I agree with you, offensive rebounding isn't that important. We're overall pretty efficient offensively, so our points should come from running sets and in transition, not second-chance points. A couple every now and then would be nice, though.
When this team gets it together defensively, and I think they will, opponents' possessions will likely result in a missed shot. Our guys need to be ready and willing to box out and rebound. I know they want to run, but you need the ball first. If we are giving up on offensive boards, we need to show commitment on the other end. Like I said, this team has the potential to be a very good defensive squad, but you have to close out the possession the right way. So far, I've only seen Sullinger give full effort in boxing out.
If we could get more defensive boards, then that leads to less second-chance points for the opposition, as well as more fast-break opportunities for our team.
TP for saying something about this. Personally, I'd like to know why people make such a fuss about offensive boards. Do you really think get extra possessions every now and then is going to make us any more of a contender?
Apparently we are not a bad defensive rebounding team at all. We are ranked 11th in def rebounding percentage. What really frustrates me is GIVING UP offensive boards. That is the most maddening thing of all. Once the defense shores up, that should lower substantially.
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Also, by the way, the reason we have been so highly ranked defensively is because of Doc's shunning of offensive rebounds. So, Doc is right and folks dont really know what theyre talking about.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrBGbQaCePw
Don't tell me offensive rebound doesn't make a difference in a game. Celtics leave themselves with very small margin for error utter disregard for o-rebounding. Seeing all 5 players retreating as soon as shoot goes up isn't a winning mindset. You're practically forfeiting a crucial element of the game. How much can hurt having just one guy mix it up inside? I seen games Anderson Varejao grab 10 offensive rebounds by himself. Those extra possessions can be different between winning and losing.
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The lack of offensive rebounds is irritating, but to my eyes it's our sad defensive rebounding that kills us.
We don't have a single "real" rebounder on our team: Boxing out on every shot, always fighting for good positioning, that weirdly innate knack for knowing where the ball is going to go... You don't need height to do that, but it is a specific skill set that seems to be in short supply on our rotation.
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I agree with the mentality that great transition defense is more important than a few extra possessions. BUT you still need to make sure you're aggressive on the defensive boards while at the same time being aggressive in transition to take advantage of the other team sending extra men... it's a thin line.
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Then why can't we rebound defensively? What is Doc's excuse there. It takes away possessions, Doc is full of melarkey, we are a poor rebounding team. Offensive rebounds, I can concede his point but it doesn't explain the poor defensive rebounding. Are our guards cheating to cherry pick or snow bird?
As for our great transition defense, it is not that great anymore.
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Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?
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I don't care what Doc says, he don't have the players to play the type of game he is dreaming,,,( he needs LBJ)
LBJ player comes around one every 100 years, get some bigs that can play and REBOUND the blank ball. He get back to the promise land alot sooner rebounding the ball and playing interior defense.
He is full of non sense , fighting for control of the paint is critical. See all the Lakers BANNERS they have hung using Shaq, Bynum and Gasol.
Rivers is on DRUGS ....Danny wake up!!! Knock some sense into him
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I absolutely agree with the OP. TP for you!
As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.
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Watched replay of the Spurs game....simple observation is that we were out-executed on both ends of the floor. Put another way, they just ran their offense and especially defense better than us. These things are fixable, and enough talent is there to be competitive. Not saying things will get better, but that it's it he realm of possibility.
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As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.
Hard to get rebounds when they are scoring on us at will. I think a lot of it is mental. We have to commit to it.
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As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.
Hard to get rebounds when they are scoring on us at will. I think a lot of it is mental. We have to commit to it.
I don't understand your comment.
My point is, that when the defense gets outplayed, not only do the other teams get easy points, they get offensive rebounds too, because the defense is out of position.
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Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Dennis Rodman, Larry Bird, Kevin Love, Kenneth Faried. All between 6'7" and 6'10". Same as all of our "BIGS". The thing is, rebounding is and art! It's a high BBIQ skill. The aforementioned players were/are great rebounders because of their knowhow. They didn't/don't rely on pure athleticism to outjump their opponents to get boards.
It's not offensive rebounding killing us, it's defensive. Without it, there are no fast breaks, and tons of offensive rebounds for the opponent!
And getting back on defense is great if you actually stop the opponent from scoring---but we aren't--so what's the great benefit?
We either need a bigger more athletic front line, or some smarter rebounders---all the other excuses are just BS!
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Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?
Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?
Because when they both get tired we'd be left with a bigs lineup of sully and bass... Yikes.
And to address the OP. the main reason we need a center is to protect the rim and bulk up our intimidation/attitude factor on defense an actually give us some sort of inside presence of the offensive end. Because of that inside presence a few more offensive rebounds might come but for me that is an issue but not the most important.
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Watched replay of the Spurs game....simple observation is that we were out-executed on both ends of the floor. Put another way, they just ran their offense and especially defense better than us. These things are fixable, and enough talent is there to be competitive. Not saying things will get better, but that it's it he realm of possibility.
good point by kuberski, but then the spurs out-execute almost everyone. their execution allowed them to take advantage of the defensive breakdowns/bad switches by the celtics.
but back to the thread. i agree with tgreanier's basic argument and am glad he started this thread. offensive rebounds are good, but as was pointed out above harder for a team to "control" and not as reliable as playing great team defense.
defense is something coaches can teach and players can (or at least should) do time after time after time, possession after possession. offensive rebounding is not. it is more hit or miss since the ball can bounce a number of ways. and if the defensive team is boxing out correctly it reduces offensive rebound chances as well.
as for other team's offensive rebounding against the celtics, as also pointed out above that is partly a function of poor celtic defense, lack of consistent boxing out, poor positioning, and lack of effort as much as anything.
i think sullinger will quickly become one of the best defensive rebounders the celtics have and that will help the situation. but the key to celtic victories ultimately lies in their defense. that has been the case for years.
this year, they have not been as good at defense as in the past. bad switches, no switches, break downs, etc. cost them points each game. even if the celtics defense breaks down only once a period, only once...that is 4 easy scores for the other team. and that is 8 points or more in a game. that is a lot.
maybe it is because the celtics have so many new players. maybe kg and pierce are older and slower. maybe the team just doesnt value defense enough right now. i dont know. but unless the celtics' defense picks up other teams will continue to score and get those offensive rebounds.
as far as i can see, doc and tgreanier seem to have it right. so tp for tgreanier and well deserved.
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quit trying to sugar coat the obvious and rationalize it - the C's rebounding sucks and has sucked for years.
no its not good and yes it is one of the reasons why they are losing at a high rate
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Look, getting almost 0 offense rebounds is fine when you lead the league in defense. But this year we are 25th in defensive efficiency. The Celtics didn't look to get offensive rebounds so they could get back on defense, and up until this year that worked out because the defense was top notch. This year no rebounding + poor defense = not a very good team. Either we have to step up the rebounding, or start playing defense like they used to. It also shouldn't take a long time to understand the defense that Doc is using for all the new players, Scal recently on the radio said it took him 2 days to learn the defense. These guys are professional ball players, they should have picked it up by now.
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Until this teams gets its defensive swagger back, it is a complete non sequitir to talk about offensive rebounds. Yes, they aren't that good at them (but we have always been above average or good at defensive rebounds, so it's inaccurate to say this team is bad at rebounding in general).
But we've gotten far without offensive rebounds in the past. At the moment, offense isn't even the huge worry for this team. It's defense. They haven't had more than 1 good defensive showing through a game this season, and it's concerning.
So until the defense comes back, there's no point complaining about secondary and tertiary issues.
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Doc is totally wrong- it is NONSENSE to send 5 guys back every single possession when you play 10 deep and most of the other teams are playing 7 or 8 guys. We should be running these guys off the court, not worrying about getting an extra step or 2 in transition D that has sucked, anyway.
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I generally agree that it's defense and defensive rebounding is where the problem lies.
I can accept a well-executed offensive play that results in a missed shot and no offensive rebound. As Doc has said, it's a make-or-break league, always has been, always will be.
However, what makes me tear my hair out is when they play defense for 24 seconds and then give up a offensive rebound put-back by the other team. Playing good defense takes more energy than playing on offense. To waste all that effort by allowing the other team good position for their own offensive rebound is just such a shame.
Getting a legit 7-foot center will help but for a different reason than simply better rebounding and paint protection by that guy. It will result in a domino effect on the rest of the key players: KG can play more PF, JG can play more SF, heck even PP can play some SG. This would result in the team having a size advantage at more positions which will result in better defense and rebounding overall.
BTW, I didn't come up with this theory on my own; it's been discussed in the threads on replacing Darko and trade ideas.
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Look at the nets game. We were horrible with our rebounding in the first half and in the second half all of a sudden we turn into a good rebounding team. Rebounding is mostly effort. You don't have to be 7 foot tall to get a [dang] rebound. Being out of position and lack of effort is why we are giving up rebounds. Break downs on defense.
As others have said defense is this teams calling card. Not getting offensive rebounds. We have never been a good offensive rebounding team nor did we need to be. We are missing that great defensive we are so use to seeing.
This is why i think trading our second best defensive player is not the way to go here. Our defense will dramatically improve once AB is on the floor with rondo and KG. AB is greatly missed right now rather some of you want to admit it or not. I'm not even ready to judge this team yet until ab is back in the starting lineup and terry is back on the bench.
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So since the team intentionally ignores offensive rebounding to play better defense, what is the story so far this year? Teams are scoring at will.
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So since the team intentionally ignores offensive rebounding to play better defense, what is the story so far this year? Teams are scoring at will.
That is exactly the point. Doc has not changed his philosophy at all during his tenure, but the defense is not anywhere near as solid. So now it is obvious that the lack of offensive rebounding is "hurting us" because our defense is not making up for it. The way the defense is playing right now, even if you added 6-10 offensive rebounds a game, the Celtics would only make up maybe 4-6 points.
I dread tonight's game - it is not going to go well I fear.
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The problem is the defense, its clear as day. Our defensive rebounding is middle of the pack our offensive rebounding is awful BY DESIGN *Cannot be denied*. The problem is defense. We are scoring enough to win, we aren't defending well enough to win. I think this team improves alot once AB comes back and terry moves to the bench.
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I generally agree that it's defense and defensive rebounding is where the problem lies.
I can accept a well-executed offensive play that results in a missed shot and no offensive rebound. As Doc has said, it's a make-or-break league, always has been, always will be.
However, what makes me tear my hair out is when they play defense for 24 seconds and then give up a offensive rebound put-back by the other team. Playing good defense takes more energy than playing on offense. To waste all that effort by allowing the other team good position for their own offensive rebound is just such a shame.
Getting a legit 7-foot center will help but for a different reason than simply better rebounding and paint protection by that guy. It will result in a domino effect on the rest of the key players: KG can play more PF, JG can play more SF, heck even PP can play some SG. This would result in the team having a size advantage at more positions which will result in better defense and rebounding overall.
BTW, I didn't come up with this theory on my own; it's been discussed in the threads on replacing Darko and trade ideas.
Totally agree with you. Did anyone ever consider that getting our defensive rebounds is a part of good defense? And when an opposing team gets their off. board, it takes away our def. rebound which is because bad defense.
It's exactly what Surferdad pointed to, we gotta secure our boards or the defense will be pointless if they keep getting offensive boards. I feel like defense and rebounds go hand in hand. Both require extra work and grittiness. And it rewards those that want to win it more.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
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One thng that i saw in the spurs game is Sully is a very strong rebounder....HE stopped the spurs from getting a lot more...but they were there constesting each and everyone..which KEEPS TEAMS FROM A FAST BREAK.....you cannot outlet a long pass when someone is totally on the rebound also...you are lucky to keep the ball, offensive rebounds break the other teams will, causes infighting....gets second chances, tires the other team out.....it never changes, and one great win does not change bbal fundamentals...!
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
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Sully is a very strong rebounder....HE stopped the spurs from getting a lot more...b
He is wide and has good hands and anticipates well. But defensively he needs work. I wish he would learn to chest up his man ala Glen Davis. Offensively and boardwise he is ready, defensively he needs work.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
Gortat has a big nose.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Darn. I was trying to be funny. I guess that one didn't go over too well. I hate it when my light hearted banter gets mistaken for boiling rage.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
Gortat has a big nose.
And, he's a "French pansy."
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
lol, so its obvious hes upset then, ha.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Darn. I was trying to be funny. I guess that one didn't go over too well. I hate it when my light hearted banter gets mistaken for boiling rage.
Nah it didn't. I originally thought funny but then i thought rage. It could have went either way i just picked rage lol.
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
lol, so its obvious hes upset then, ha.
Yea and what he is trying to point out is that you dont want to give up anyone to get Gortat.
Gortat>Bradley
-
I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
lol, so its obvious hes upset then, ha.
Yea and what he is trying to point out is that you dont want to give up anyone to get Gortat.
Gortat>Bradley
I know you just said "Captain obvious" to me because i recently said it to you but..........this was a horrible time to say it lol.
-
I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
lol, so its obvious hes upset then, ha.
Yea and what he is trying to point out is that you dont want to give up anyone to get Gortat.
Gortat>Bradley
I know you just said "Captain obvious" to me because i recently said it to you but..........this was a horrible time to say it lol.
well that was the way i saw itt you want to get gortat but you dont want to give up anyone
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
Gortat has a big nose.
And, he's a "French pansy."
My nose is bigger
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I do not want to see a trade for Gortat for this very reason.
Keep in mind that Gortat is (in my opinion) a good defensive player who is tough and will rebound, while giving you solid offensive production.
But everyone on this board is underestimating how good Avery Bradley is on defense. He is the best defensive talent on this team. There, I said it. He might be the best defensive guard in the NBA. He is light years better than Rondo.
I cannot emphasize enough how good our team became defensively when Avery Bradley started last year after Ray got hurt. Trading AB for a center would be a disaster.
Hey now, not everyone. I along with others have your back on this. I clearly remember how lethal we were on defense and as a team in general once AB moved into the starting lineup.
Believe it or not, I too am aware how good a defender Avery Bradley is. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the Boston Celtics.
And it doesn't mean i wouldn't love to see Marcin Gortat as a member of the boston celtics lol. As long as we can keep our most important pieces, Rondo, Pierce, KG, Terry, Bradley.
Don't forget Green and Bass. Oh, and I think Wilcox has a no trade clause. I'm starting to like Sully more and more, too.
How about we offer 'em Fab Melo, Kris Joseph and a couple of draft picks? Better yet (don't really want to give up on Melo and Joseph), maybe they'll just give him to us. We'll take him and pay his salary, and then the Suns won't have to worry about paying him.
Sounds good to me.
You seem upset
Great job pointing that out captain obvious.
lol, so its obvious hes upset then, ha.
Yea and what he is trying to point out is that you dont want to give up anyone to get Gortat.
Gortat>Bradley
I know you just said "Captain obvious" to me because i recently said it to you but..........this was a horrible time to say it lol.
well that was the way i saw itt you want to get gortat but you dont want to give up anyone
I see what you're saying but all im saying is you saying "Captain obvious" right there didn't make sense UNLESS you were agreeing with me that he was upset and it was obvious lol.
Anyways back to to topic at hand. Since when did Avery bradley account for EVERYONE? Hes the only guy outside of the obvious pieces we aren't trading that i don't wanna give up.
Ill give up everybody else on the bench and bass so what you're saying is simply not true but i think you know that. I understand you're in a desperate attempt to try to make me look bad but come on now lol. Id trade Bass, Sullinger, Green, josef, Lee, Barbosa, Collins.
**Edit** Let me rephrase that. Pierce Kg Rondo Terry Bradley are the only players i don't wanna give up under any circumstance. *Obviously not talking about a trade for lebron or kevin durant* I don't really wanna give up anyone except probably bass and LEE.
Only because once ab comes back we won't need lee and bass is not a starting PF. If he comes off the bench fine but i hate starting him its very annoying. I'm not one of those GOTTA MAKE A TRADE NOW! guys. I don't want to do anything until i see a healthy celtics team play for atleast a month straight.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
Gortat has a big nose.
And, he's a "French pansy."
Hahaha well played. TP.
he does have a big nose though.
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gortat is an absolute joke.
Thanks for that fascinating insight.
Gortat has a big nose.
And, he's a "French pansy."
Hahaha well played. TP.
he does have a big nose though.
Yeah, he does have a big nose, just like a lot of my heroes: Pinocchio, Professor Humpty, Cyrano de Bergerac, and a certain hick from French Lick.
You know what they say; the bigger the nose, the badder the Polack.
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sooooooo.....just to bring the thread back to the original title....
a good rebounder must have a nose for the ball and be hard-nosed about getting rebounds. ;D
and as my old signature said....opinions are like noses. almost everyone has one and most of them are unattractive.
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I have always found large noses easier to break and they bleed a lot easier in my Army and street fighting/bouncer days.
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This thread is starting to take a nose-dive in a completely silly direction.
http://img.traveldudes.org/files/imagecache/imagenode-teaser/images/baby-elephant-w.jpg
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Sully is a very strong rebounder....HE stopped the spurs from getting a lot more...b
He is wide and has good hands and anticipates well. But defensively he needs work. I wish he would learn to chest up his man ala Glen Davis. Offensively and boardwise he is ready, defensively he needs work.
no arguement there....he will pick it up....i think it is a battle between whre doc wants him and where he knows where to go....Bball is faster in the pros, but not a lot of other changes.....who is your man, pics, rotations step out and cover the guy who is coming or got free on a pic...bball is not rocket science, same court, same # of guys, same game since age 5.....!
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To the OP....I made this special for you
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3rwvll/