CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ItStaysYang on January 27, 2013, 04:56:15 PM
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Think about it. Avery Bradley and Courtney Lee will start together. JET and Barbosa will back them up. If the Celtics had to lose a player at any position, thankfully it was at the GUARD. Suddenly having all of these capable backup guards seems like it will pay off, as these backups will all see more defined roles.
With Bradley starting and playing well with Lee (especially on defense), and JET plus Barbosa getting more regular backup minutes, these guys will still be able to make it happen. Plus, the offense seems less "congested" without Rondo on the floor (at least with all of these new pieces). Don't get the wrong idea, I love Rondo. To contrast, if it was KG that went down, we would be unable to make the playoffs.
Rondo (though he played exceptionally well in the games prior to the injury, and was scoring late game points) is NOT the go-to guy at the end of games. The Celtics have other capable passers in Bradley, Pierce, Lee, and even Terry/KG. Pierce will always take the game-winner regardless of Rondo's status.
If this team gets into the playoffs, or loses in any round, it won't be for any reasons involving Rondo not being around (e.g. rebounds, points in paint, etc.)
It's not the end, just a new chapter!
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TP for the optimism.
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Yep, I'm not sweating it.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
Well, look at it this way, Vinnie.
Rajon Rondo is such a vitrolic symbol on this team that the critics of his game "should" automatically become a bit more optimistic now, I'm guessing. ;D
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Delonte is out there. Lowry, Calderon might be available. Maybe it's not over.
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They do not have a legitimate backup point, never mind a starting point. Pierce is too old to play that role in my opinion.
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They do not have a legitimate backup point, never mind a starting point. Pierce is too old to play that role in my opinion.
So they will play a non-PG centric offense.
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So the other day here there was a thread talking about who is the go to guy on the Celtics. Many posters said that Rondo is or has to be. That he is one of the few guys who can create his own shot, and so on. I agree with those posters. I also believe it is foolhardy to think that this team is going to be better without Rajon Rondo -- unless they can get a guy who can bring the ball up court and run the offense.
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apparently no one wants us to be positive.
we will have to sit back and see.
and please, everyone:
I'm not opposed to saying 'tolja so'
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
They were fine today without him
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I just checked and the words, "logic," "common," and "sense" have been removed from the dictionary and no longer exist.
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I just checked and the words, "logic," "common," and "sense" have been removed from the dictionary and no longer exist.
Well, to be fair you don't use much of them in your posts either :P
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I just checked and the words, "logic," "common," and "sense" have been removed from the dictionary and no longer exist.
Your negativity sometimes gets under my skin (not that I think you are always wrong, just that I get irritated), but you are THE voice of reason today.
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Of course we'll okay...for a first round playoff exit.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
How many teams in the league have a legit "proper" PG?
There are probably only 4 or 5 of those in the league:
* Chris Paul
* Rajon Rondo
* Andre Miller
* Jason Kidd
* Deron Williams
Guys like Derek Rose, Mario Chalmers, Russel Westbrook, Brandon Jennings (etc) are not proper/pure Point Guards, they are basically scorers who can handle the ball.
The natural PG is very rare in today's game, which is dominated largely by scoring PGs.
We can win games without Rondo. We can potentially be just as good without Rondo IF we do it the right way. We need to utilise the strengths of our players better in his absense and change our game plan to suit our key guys.
With Rondo out it leaves Terry, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley as our 4 guard rotation. All of those guys can hit the three, so it's harder for defenses to help off them the way they did with Rondo out there. Bradley is probably the only guy on that list that the Defense can risk leaving open, but even he can make you pay.
Also the loss of Rondo allows us to use Lee and Bradley on the court together more frequently, allowing us to take advantage of the smothering defense we get when those guys combine with full court pressure. Then we can bring Terry and Barbosa off the bench for scoring punch.
Also unlike most teams in the league, we have two of the best passing frontcourt players at their positions in Pierce and KG. As we saw tonight they are both capable of creating plays for others.
Needless to say our effort and motivation levels also need to increase dramatically. We won a lot of games last season with a LOT less talent than we have right now, even with Rondo out. We won those games with pure desperation, by simply playing harder than the opponent every single night.
If we play with the same urgency we have for most of this season, then yes our chance of making the playoffs will be slim.
This doesn't destroy our chance of making the playoffs or competing deep in the playoffs, it just means we need to do it a different way, with a different strategy.
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Terry, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley. Three journeyman players -- one who has been a great shooter in the past -- and a third year guy who plays great defense, but has not been able to stay healthy for any long period of time. I have all the confidence in the world they will make a deep run in the playoffs.
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Terry, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley. Three journeyman players -- one who has been a great shooter in the past -- and a third year guy who plays great defense, but has not been able to stay healthy for any long period of time. I have all the confidence in the world they will make a deep run in the playoffs.
How far did Orlando go with Jameer Nelson as their PG, with nothing but one dimensional shooters around him? They got to the NBA Finals actually, though they did get destroyed when they got there..the point is you don't NEED a superstar PG to get deep in the playoffs.
Yes they had Dwight, but we have Pierce and KG who (collectively) are bigger impact players than Dwight is on his own.
I'm not saying we will compete for a title, that we'll go deep in the playoffs or even that we will MAKE the playoffs...but it's all possible if we play hard and everyone plays to their strengths.
Jameer Nelson is not too different to Jason Terry.
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vinnie are you a troll? or a real celtics fan?
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Terry, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley. Three journeyman players -- one who has been a great shooter in the past -- and a third year guy who plays great defense, but has not been able to stay healthy for any long period of time. I have all the confidence in the world they will make a deep run in the playoffs.
How far did Orlando go with Jameer Nelson as their PG, with nothing but one dimensional shooters around him? They got to the NBA Finals actually, though they did get destroyed when they got there..the point is you don't NEED a superstar PG to get deep in the playoffs.
Yes they had Dwight, but we have Pierce and KG who (collectively) are bigger impact players than Dwight is on his own.
I'm not saying we will compete for a title, that we'll go deep in the playoffs or even that we will MAKE the playoffs...but it's all possible if we play hard and everyone plays to their strengths.
Jameer Nelson is not too different to Jason Terry.
Great point (no pun intended)
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vinnie are you a troll? or a real celtics fan?
smh. vinnie may get under people's skin a bit, but I don't think he is a troll, and I agree with his point. We are, especially in the playoffs, not a better team now than RR is lost for the season.
I will try to be cautiously optimistic though that if the effort we played with today continues (best Def effort of the year) that we should be able to win enough games to get into the playoffs and then let the cards fall where they may.
It is just once we get there, we don't have one of the best playoff performers in the league.
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Rondo's workload can be redistributed among all of the guards. No one said it was easy or likely, but impossible? Not a chance. The C's played great today in the absence of RR and can continue to do so. The guards we have are all capable and skilled to some degree.
As good as he was, the team was never "Rondo". KG on the other hand... he goes down, season's fate is sealed instantly
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Is it too early for me to say I told you so?
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Terry, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley. Three journeyman players -- one who has been a great shooter in the past -- and a third year guy who plays great defense, but has not been able to stay healthy for any long period of time. I have all the confidence in the world they will make a deep run in the playoffs.
How far did Orlando go with Jameer Nelson as their PG, with nothing but one dimensional shooters around him? They got to the NBA Finals actually, though they did get destroyed when they got there..the point is you don't NEED a superstar PG to get deep in the playoffs.
Yes they had Dwight, but we have Pierce and KG who (collectively) are bigger impact players than Dwight is on his own.
I'm not saying we will compete for a title, that we'll go deep in the playoffs or even that we will MAKE the playoffs...but it's all possible if we play hard and everyone plays to their strengths.
Jameer Nelson is not too different to Jason Terry.
I agree that you don't necessarily need a superstar point guard to go deep in the playoffs, but it certainly helps to have superstar level players. Rondo is absolutely the closest thing we have to a superstar level player.
The silver lining is that I believe that Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett still have the ability to play like superstar players in stretches. If they can both find a stretch where they are playing at their best in a seven game series against the Heat and the likes of Green, Terry, Lee, Bass and Bradley are making strong contributions, then I still think we have an outside chance at knocking off the Heat.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
How many teams in the league have a legit "proper" PG?
There are probably only 4 or 5 of those in the league:
* Chris Paul
* Rajon Rondo
* Andre Miller
* Jason Kidd
* Deron Williams
Guys like Derek Rose, Mario Chalmers, Russel Westbrook, Brandon Jennings (etc) are not proper/pure Point Guards, they are basically scorers who can handle the ball.
The natural PG is very rare in today's game, which is dominated largely by scoring PGs.
Nope, it's not -- there's just a pile of players that you can't think of. Let me help:
Rubio
Vasquez
Holliday
Calderon
Dragic
Conley
Lin
Jack
Teague
Nelson
I'm sure there may be more that I'm forgetting. These are the most prominent ones.
That's not as rare as you're trying to make it look.
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
Lots of players seem to have found their place once Rondo is out of the lineup...
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
Lots of players seem to have found their place once Rondo is out of the lineup...
yup....sure does look like a lot more happy and confident faces out there on the court. ......even old Collins seems a hair more active.
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
Lots of players seem to have found their place once Rondo is out of the lineup...
Or possibly the fact that Rondo and Sully are out of the lineup is giving them a more consistent amount of minutes every game. It's going to have a negative effect on most player's games if they play 12 minutes 1 night and 30 the next.
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
Lots of players seem to have found their place once Rondo is out of the lineup...
It all really boils down to the fact that the big 3 centric offense that worked so well from 08-10 had lost its effectiveness due to the advanced age of KG and Pierce. The new guards that were brought in this year couldn't play like that - in order to succeed they needed more touches and more playing time - which in turn, made them more comfortable. Rondo isn't the closer, he is the facilitator. Fortunately, that role can be handled collectively by our capable starters and backup guards. Losing Rondo never spelt the end, as losing KG (or even Pierce) would
EDIT: Jeff Green also seemed to need more playing time and more touches as he is playing MUCH better as well.
Also, I bet that these issues were brought up before Rondo/doc (aka deaf ears). Maybe this is why some guys were beginning to get frustrated, as the system wasn't changing and likewise wasn't working. However, Doc and Rondo are not oblivious - with them seeing this newfound progress, the dynamic of this team will change greatly when Rondo returns. Especially if Pierce and KG hang it up after this season. And we will likely need to get rid of one of our guards in the off-season in order to remove the congestion and keep things rolling smoothly. We need a big..
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On another positive note, Jeff Green has averaged over 14 pts, 3 boards, 1 steal and 1 block in the past 5 games to go with strong defense. Oh, and fg% well over 50.
I see his workload increasing going forward. He doesn't look like the outsider waiting for his chance anymore.
agree, Green seems to have found his place and feels and looks like a part of the team. Green has been a very important piece for the Celtics last victories
I'll be interested to see if Green can put a lid on Gay's offense when we play the Raptors. If he does we win up in Toronto
Lots of players seem to have found their place once Rondo is out of the lineup...
It all really boils down to the fact that the big 3 centric offense that worked so well from 08-10 had lost its effectiveness due to the advanced age of KG and Pierce. The new guards that were brought in this year couldn't play like that - in order to succeed they needed more touches and more playing time - which in turn, made them more comfortable. Rondo isn't the closer, he is the facilitator. Fortunately, that role can be handled collectively by our capable starters and backup guards. Losing Rondo never spelt the end, as losing KG (or even Pierce) would
EDIT: Jeff Green also seemed to need more playing time and more touches as he is playing MUCH better as well.
Also, I bet that these issues were brought up before Rondo/doc (aka deaf ears). Maybe this is why some guys were beginning to get frustrated, as the system wasn't changing and likewise wasn't working. However, Doc and Rondo are not oblivious - with them seeing this newfound progress, the dynamic of this team will change greatly when Rondo returns. Especially if Pierce and KG hang it up after this season. And we will likely need to get rid of one of our guards in the off-season in order to remove the congestion and keep things rolling smoothly. We need a big..
When you talk about what's been working and what hasn't, you'd have to consider the fact that earlier this season things *were* working when Rondo was controlling the offense. In fact it was working better than anything we're likely to see from our current team over the rest of the season. It's great that Courtney Lee is thriving (for Courtney Lee, that is) when he's playing 30+ minutes a game and handling the ball quite a bit. What's more important is whether the team's offense will thrive with Courtney Lee and I don't know that it will.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
How many teams in the league have a legit "proper" PG?
There are probably only 4 or 5 of those in the league:
* Chris Paul
* Rajon Rondo
* Andre Miller
* Jason Kidd
* Deron Williams
Guys like Derek Rose, Mario Chalmers, Russel Westbrook, Brandon Jennings (etc) are not proper/pure Point Guards, they are basically scorers who can handle the ball.
The natural PG is very rare in today's game, which is dominated largely by scoring PGs.
Nope, it's not -- there's just a pile of players that you can't think of. Let me help:
Rubio
Vasquez
Holliday
Calderon
Dragic
Conley
Lin
Jack
Teague
Nelson
I'm sure there may be more that I'm forgetting. These are the most prominent ones.
That's not as rare as you're trying to make it look.
the second list is highly flawed
holiday...as in jrue? conley? nelson? ROFL
ok.
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the second list is highly flawed
holiday...as in jrue? conley? nelson? ROFL
ok.
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss some of those players. Jrue Holliday is an all star this year, putting up 19/9/4 (he's only 22). And the ever-consistent Mike COnley is quarterbacking one of the best teams in the NBA...oh and he's second in the nba in steals per game.
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Um, okay. Too bad they do not have one guy on the roster who can truly play point guard. We will be okay. We lost a guy who is supposedly a top 5 point guard in the league and in the top 20 for MVP. Sure, will be great.
How many teams in the league have a legit "proper" PG?
There are probably only 4 or 5 of those in the league:
* Chris Paul
* Rajon Rondo
* Andre Miller
* Jason Kidd
* Deron Williams
Guys like Derek Rose, Mario Chalmers, Russel Westbrook, Brandon Jennings (etc) are not proper/pure Point Guards, they are basically scorers who can handle the ball.
The natural PG is very rare in today's game, which is dominated largely by scoring PGs.
Nope, it's not -- there's just a pile of players that you can't think of. Let me help:
Rubio
Vasquez
Holliday
Calderon
Dragic
Conley
Lin
Jack
Teague
Nelson
I'm sure there may be more that I'm forgetting. These are the most prominent ones.
That's not as rare as you're trying to make it look.
the second list is highly flawed
holiday...as in jrue? conley? nelson? ROFL
ok.
Um, excuse me, on what principle are you compiling this list? If your point was to show that are only five top 5 PGs in the NBA ... um... well, you managed that.
All the players on my lists are natural PGs that play nontrivial minutes for their teams. They may be of different quality, but I didn't think that was the point here (although most of them are probably still better than Andre Miller, all things considered).