Author Topic: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.  (Read 37505 times)

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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #225 on: May 07, 2018, 12:09:10 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Isn't Gordon Hayward's injury extremeky similar to Paul George's horrific brojen leg which he returned from and over the last three years have averaged about 23 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 3.5 APG while shooting about 45/39/85 with a PER around 20 and a win share per 48 at around .145?

Seems like Hayward should return to form if George could do so with an extremely similar injury.
Exactly. And George is more of an athletic player than Hayward. No indication at all that Hayward will be "averaging 9-12 points off the bench."

Hayward turning into a worse Marcus Morris is a pretty hilarious take

A complete tear was the "best" thing that could have happened, I remember reading - in contrast to a partial one that has long term implications.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #226 on: May 07, 2018, 01:05:59 AM »

Offline rondofan1255

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Why did this guy “step down,” again? I vaguely recall him being fired, but it looks like he just stepped down. Says a lot about his genius ideas that he vacated his position...

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #227 on: May 07, 2018, 01:36:15 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Why did this guy “step down,” again? I vaguely recall him being fired, but it looks like he just stepped down. Says a lot about his genius ideas that he vacated his position...
Short version is that the rest of the league was getting pretty irritated that Philly was exploiting the lotto.  Also important, NBA agents and the players union were getting irritated that Philly wasn't giving vets contracts and instead was just staying near the cap floor and bringing up d-leaguers.  The media was in an uproar about it as well.  So the Colangelos were brought in - some say the league forced Philly's hand.  Hinkie stayed on initially, but eventually stepped down when it was clear he was going to have to share power.

Nothing really changed, though.  They finished out their tank job that year.  They didn't make any veteran signings.  They didn't trade for any quality role players.  They kept with Hinkie's plan.  Basically Hinkie was the scapegoat that allowed them to say "things are different now!" when really they weren't.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #228 on: May 07, 2018, 01:39:13 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Why did this guy “step down,” again? I vaguely recall him being fired, but it looks like he just stepped down. Says a lot about his genius ideas that he vacated his position...


 Hinkie was booted because it was a bad image for the league. He got hosed and I used to make fun of the guy, but he got screwed, just when things were getting good too.

 

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #229 on: May 07, 2018, 01:41:27 AM »

Offline greece66

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #230 on: May 07, 2018, 06:26:51 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #231 on: May 07, 2018, 07:10:16 AM »

Offline greece66

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

The Regular Season record is besides the point tbh. This is more about how you get the losses.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #232 on: May 07, 2018, 07:27:00 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Why did this guy “step down,” again? I vaguely recall him being fired, but it looks like he just stepped down. Says a lot about his genius ideas that he vacated his position...
Short version is that the rest of the league was getting pretty irritated that Philly was exploiting the lotto.  Also important, NBA agents and the players union were getting irritated that Philly wasn't giving vets contracts and instead was just staying near the cap floor and bringing up d-leaguers.  The media was in an uproar about it as well.  So the Colangelos were brought in - some say the league forced Philly's hand.  Hinkie stayed on initially, but eventually stepped down when it was clear he was going to have to share power.

Nothing really changed, though.  They finished out their tank job that year.  They didn't make any veteran signings.  They didn't trade for any quality role players.  They kept with Hinkie's plan.  Basically Hinkie was the scapegoat that allowed them to say "things are different now!" when really they weren't.
Yeah, it's not like they signed JJ Redick for 1 year, $23 million.

Oh wait...
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2018, 07:39:46 AM »

Offline Granath

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

What point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone who said the 76ers were the worst team ever. Per their record they were the 3rd worst team ever which was preceded by two seasons of under 20 wins. It may not be the worst 3 year stretch ever but it's close. The Dallas Mavs of 91-93 probably were worse as were one of Sterling's Clippers teams and maybe the expansion Grizzlies but it's tough to find many more cases of teams that were truly horrible. That they're not the "worst ever" isn't really an argument to make in favor of Hinkie. If that's your argument then you've lost the plot.

As I said before, Hinkie's entire game plan was hoping for luck. This doesn't take a genius to figure out nor did it take any imagination. It simply means you play those odds long enough for them to swing in your favor. I find it laughable that anyone thinks this is some sort of brilliant strategy.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #234 on: May 07, 2018, 08:45:03 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

What point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone who said the 76ers were the worst team ever. Per their record they were the 3rd worst team ever which was preceded by two seasons of under 20 wins. It may not be the worst 3 year stretch ever but it's close. The Dallas Mavs of 91-93 probably were worse as were one of Sterling's Clippers teams and maybe the expansion Grizzlies but it's tough to find many more cases of teams that were truly horrible. That they're not the "worst ever" isn't really an argument to make in favor of Hinkie. If that's your argument then you've lost the plot.

As I said before, Hinkie's entire game plan was hoping for luck. This doesn't take a genius to figure out nor did it take any imagination. It simply means you play those odds long enough for them to swing in your favor. I find it laughable that anyone thinks this is some sort of brilliant strategy.
would you rather be the Sixers or the Kings?  Or maybe you prefer to be the Suns?  Perhaps the Magic or Lakers?  Maybe the Knicks are more your style?

Playing the odds isn't luck, it is in fact a strategy.  Maybe if those 5 teams above were a bit smarter they wouldn't still be so bad and might have a brighter outlook.  I mean the Kings haven't made the playoffs in 12 seasons, the Suns have now gone 8 seasons, the Magic are at 6 and counting.  Even the Knicks and Lakers are now 5 years in without making the playoffs, which is the exact amount of time the Sixers were out of the playoffs (the Nuggets are 5 years in as well, though they at least just missed the playoffs this year). 

Or maybe you'd rather be a franchise like the Hornets that has now gone 15 seasons without reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs and only had 3 1st round losses in that time.  Does that seem like a winning strategy?  The Pistons have 1 playoff appearance in the last 9 seasons and just 1 winning season in the last 10 seasons.  Are they employing a winning strategy?
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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #235 on: May 07, 2018, 08:55:39 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

What point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone who said the 76ers were the worst team ever. Per their record they were the 3rd worst team ever which was preceded by two seasons of under 20 wins. It may not be the worst 3 year stretch ever but it's close. The Dallas Mavs of 91-93 probably were worse as were one of Sterling's Clippers teams and maybe the expansion Grizzlies but it's tough to find many more cases of teams that were truly horrible. That they're not the "worst ever" isn't really an argument to make in favor of Hinkie. If that's your argument then you've lost the plot.

As I said before, Hinkie's entire game plan was hoping for luck. This doesn't take a genius to figure out nor did it take any imagination. It simply means you play those odds long enough for them to swing in your favor. I find it laughable that anyone thinks this is some sort of brilliant strategy.
would you rather be the Sixers or the Kings?  Or maybe you prefer to be the Suns?  Perhaps the Magic or Lakers?  Maybe the Knicks are more your style?

Playing the odds isn't luck, it is in fact a strategy.  Maybe if those 5 teams above were a bit smarter they wouldn't still be so bad and might have a brighter outlook.  I mean the Kings haven't made the playoffs in 12 seasons, the Suns have now gone 8 seasons, the Magic are at 6 and counting.  Even the Knicks and Lakers are now 5 years in without making the playoffs, which is the exact amount of time the Sixers were out of the playoffs (the Nuggets are 5 years in as well, though they at least just missed the playoffs this year). 

Or maybe you'd rather be a franchise like the Hornets that has now gone 15 seasons without reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs and only had 3 1st round losses in that time.  Does that seem like a winning strategy?  The Pistons have 1 playoff appearance in the last 9 seasons and just 1 winning season in the last 10 seasons.  Are they employing a winning strategy?

No, those teams stink. They are embarrassing, with the exception of the Lakers, who have had too much historic success to be lumped with the Kings and Knicks.

To find a winning strategy, you'll need to look at the other end of the NBA standings.

I think that Hinkie's strategy will end up working. That being said, it is pathetic. Long-term intentional losing is a strategy that a middling franchise can deal with, but one that a proud fan should look at with pity.

Call me bullheaded, but I'm not dropping $300 so my wife and I can watch a team's worst players get smoked by 20pts. Far too many things to do to support that BS.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #236 on: May 07, 2018, 08:59:13 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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We'll see how good it worked Fultz is still in question they missed on Okafor and Noel so right now half their lottery picks aren't very good, one is in question another is injury prone and one can't shoot. Hard for me to say genius!

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #237 on: May 07, 2018, 09:07:34 AM »

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

What point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone who said the 76ers were the worst team ever. Per their record they were the 3rd worst team ever which was preceded by two seasons of under 20 wins. It may not be the worst 3 year stretch ever but it's close. The Dallas Mavs of 91-93 probably were worse as were one of Sterling's Clippers teams and maybe the expansion Grizzlies but it's tough to find many more cases of teams that were truly horrible. That they're not the "worst ever" isn't really an argument to make in favor of Hinkie. If that's your argument then you've lost the plot.

As I said before, Hinkie's entire game plan was hoping for luck. This doesn't take a genius to figure out nor did it take any imagination. It simply means you play those odds long enough for them to swing in your favor. I find it laughable that anyone thinks this is some sort of brilliant strategy.
would you rather be the Sixers or the Kings?  Or maybe you prefer to be the Suns?  Perhaps the Magic or Lakers?  Maybe the Knicks are more your style?

Playing the odds isn't luck, it is in fact a strategy.  Maybe if those 5 teams above were a bit smarter they wouldn't still be so bad and might have a brighter outlook.  I mean the Kings haven't made the playoffs in 12 seasons, the Suns have now gone 8 seasons, the Magic are at 6 and counting.  Even the Knicks and Lakers are now 5 years in without making the playoffs, which is the exact amount of time the Sixers were out of the playoffs (the Nuggets are 5 years in as well, though they at least just missed the playoffs this year). 

Or maybe you'd rather be a franchise like the Hornets that has now gone 15 seasons without reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs and only had 3 1st round losses in that time.  Does that seem like a winning strategy?  The Pistons have 1 playoff appearance in the last 9 seasons and just 1 winning season in the last 10 seasons.  Are they employing a winning strategy?

"Tanking" and "being bad for a long time" aren't the only options. A team with good ownership and good GM can put themselves into a great position without tanking.
I'm bitter.

Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #238 on: May 07, 2018, 09:12:20 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Genius? I don’t know. A lot of those draft picks didn’t work out, and Embiid kind of fell into their lap. If they’d gotten the second pick that year and had picked Jabari Parker, the “process” would be an abject failure.

But, Hinkie did pull off two fantastic trades, picking up extra lotto picks from the Lakers and Kings without trading any real assets.


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Re: Sam Hinkie was a genius. He's 100% right now.
« Reply #239 on: May 07, 2018, 09:20:34 AM »

Offline footey

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Someone posted this article in CB http://www.celticshub.com/2018/04/09/misplacing-trust-process/ - it is one of the few that put things in the right perspective.

We can go on debating the value of picks all we want, but Bernandoni's article brings out another important aspect of strategic tanking that often goes unnoticed, namely that it can't be tolerated for long in a closed league like the NBA.

The part of Philly's tanking that was disturbing to other franchises wasn't so much their trades (although there is something to be said about trading Jrue Holiday for an injured Noel) nor drafting an injured Embiid - despite how absured it is now for the same franchise to claim Embiid's fragile health as an excuse.

Strategic tanking was a defense of egoism at its worse, abusing the letter of the law to get highly valued assets while ignoring your team's obligations to the league, as if Philadelphia itself wasn't part of the NBA and existed in a vaccuum. It was only a question of time for NBA to interfere and ask for Hinkie to be fired teaching them that egoism is a sword that cuts both ways.
the thing is Philly doesn't have the worst season ever, doesn't have the 2 worst consecutive seasons ever, doesn't have the 3 or 4 worst seasons ever either and only finished with the worst record in the league 1 time.  This idea that Philly was the worst ever just isn't true.  They were bad, but not record setting bad.  They weren't the first team to openly tank and aren't the last team to openly tank.  The league survives just fine.

What point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone who said the 76ers were the worst team ever. Per their record they were the 3rd worst team ever which was preceded by two seasons of under 20 wins. It may not be the worst 3 year stretch ever but it's close. The Dallas Mavs of 91-93 probably were worse as were one of Sterling's Clippers teams and maybe the expansion Grizzlies but it's tough to find many more cases of teams that were truly horrible. That they're not the "worst ever" isn't really an argument to make in favor of Hinkie. If that's your argument then you've lost the plot.

As I said before, Hinkie's entire game plan was hoping for luck. This doesn't take a genius to figure out nor did it take any imagination. It simply means you play those odds long enough for them to swing in your favor. I find it laughable that anyone thinks this is some sort of brilliant strategy.
would you rather be the Sixers or the Kings?  Or maybe you prefer to be the Suns?  Perhaps the Magic or Lakers?  Maybe the Knicks are more your style?

Playing the odds isn't luck, it is in fact a strategy.  Maybe if those 5 teams above were a bit smarter they wouldn't still be so bad and might have a brighter outlook.  I mean the Kings haven't made the playoffs in 12 seasons, the Suns have now gone 8 seasons, the Magic are at 6 and counting.  Even the Knicks and Lakers are now 5 years in without making the playoffs, which is the exact amount of time the Sixers were out of the playoffs (the Nuggets are 5 years in as well, though they at least just missed the playoffs this year). 

Or maybe you'd rather be a franchise like the Hornets that has now gone 15 seasons without reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs and only had 3 1st round losses in that time.  Does that seem like a winning strategy?  The Pistons have 1 playoff appearance in the last 9 seasons and just 1 winning season in the last 10 seasons.  Are they employing a winning strategy?

Let’s see what this Philly team has actually accomplished before reaching any conclusions. Since they started down this tank strategy 5-6 years ago, what have they accomplished to date? One trip to the 2nd round. Until this series began everyone proclaimed them this great juggernaut. Funny how the actual games got in the way. I’m more upbeat about Milwaukee’s future.