Bulpett Nails it

[tazzmaniac]

You guys are dense. I'm advocating picking a direction not tanking.  The team certainly can go in the other direction and trade the assets for players that better fit the timeline of the current starters and go for a title. 

That is the point  I've been making. You can only try to do both things for so long until you harm both potential paths.

Except you've failed to prove that point. You've tried bringing up salaries and playing time. Both have been thoroughly and convincingly refuted.

How many times do I need to repeat this? Never in the history of the NBA has a 50 win team had consecutive top 5 lottery picks. Not only do the Cs have that, they will likely have 3 in a row (plus other #1s from other teams the next couple of years). That is an unprecedented opportunity and with that the Celtics are not bound by the typical constraints that NBA teams face. Most teams have to pick one direction or another because they don't have the assets & the talent at the same time. So either they're making a run or they're in full rebuilding mode. 50 win teams don't have top 5 picks. Top lottery teams don't have the talent to get 50 wins. Teams don't have the luxury of being both. We do. We can compete now and restock with even better prospects for later.

Going all in is going to create a 3-4 year window right now to compete then it's over. Dedicating to the tank would get a helluva lot of assets for later but then you lose veteran leadership, the expectation of winning, the desire of FAs to join the team and you delay the window opening for 3-5 years if it ever does. Or you hold to the middle ground, continue to get better and you have what should be a decent sized window for a decade or more. I don't see where there's a substantial risk of a middle ground.

Depends on who you acquire on how long the window is.  I mean Butler, Griffin, George, Cousins (not available anymore), Hayward, etc. are all in their mid-20's.  You'd certainly expect more than 3 years from that group, especially joining Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, etc. who are also in that age range.  Let's you sign Hayward as a free agent, how exactly do you get that team to be a real legit contender without moving some of the young assets to acquire that other guy that gets you over the hump?  And if you aren't willing to move the young players/draft picks, then what exactly are you doing?  Just floating along as a 50 win team without any real shot at winning, unless the young guys hit.  Of course if your title hopes hinge on the young guys hitting, then why wouldn't you maximize those odds, but creating playing time, getting more bites at the apple, etc. 

My ideal somewhat realistic summer, would be signing Griffin as a free agent, then moving Brown, Smart, Bradley, Boston 2018 1st for Butler (I don't think you need to include a BKN pick with that package), re-signing Johnson (at a reasonable rate and short term), and then adding a veteran big and wings for depth on the bench.

So I'd go into next year with

PG - Thomas, Fultz/Ball, Jackson
SG - Butler, Vet, Rozier
SF - Crowder, Vet, Jerekbo
PF - Griffin, Johnson, Yabusele
C - Horford, Vet, Zizic

That team would have a real shot if it was healthy entering the playoffs and also alleviates a lot of the long term salary issues (by getting rid of KO, Brown, Smart, and Bradley for basically just Griffin, Butler, and some short term low dollar vets).

Those are the type of moves I'd like to see.  Roster upgrades/consolidation by using not just the cap space but some of the young assets (i.e. Brown and Smart). 

I'd rather the team just go for it now because there are no guarantees on young players (or does that only count when you are discussing Philly and not Boston).  I was very disappointed Cousins wasn't acquired (especially at the final price) because I thought he could have given Boston an actual real advantage against all of the main contenders.  I couldn't believe Boston didn't go for Noel, again helping alleviate a real weak point of the team, especially at his final price.  How much different does this team look if it would have added Cousins and Noel for Brown, Rozier, and some future 1st's.  Even someone like PJ Tucker would have helped a great deal. 

You guys are letting Ainge off the hook because of "future assets", but Boston doing nothing at the deadline was a travesty and this basic status quo of trying to win and rebuild at the same time won't work much longer.  You have to pick a direction and go with it.

Brown, Smart, Bradley, Boston 2018 1st isn't going to get us Butler.  Bradley and Smart are both getting paid after next season whereas Butler has 2 more seasons so the Bulls would be worse off financially.  Brown hasn't shown much star potential.  Smart is a role player.  Bradley is a nice starter but not a difference maker.  The Boston 2018 pick isn't worth much.

Except that was basically the package (plus Crowder and minus the pick) that the Bulls wanted for Butler at the last draft that Ainge rejected.  Bulls likely would have taken Dunn not Brown at 3, but Brown has already shown to be better than Dunn.  Given it is now later and the Bulls are apparently sold on moving Butler, they won't get a better package than that for Butler.  Again I don't do that trade in a vacuum, it is contingent on signing Griffin first (probably do it if I sign Hayward as well), but I think it is a fairly reasonable trade for Butler.

Not sure where you are getting that from.  Woj was talking about the deal beginning with a Nets pick. 
http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/wojnarowski-bulls-celtics-jimmy-butler-trade-talks-will-loom-over-entire-week 

[Moranis]

You guys are dense. I'm advocating picking a direction not tanking.  The team certainly can go in the other direction and trade the assets for players that better fit the timeline of the current starters and go for a title. 

That is the point  I've been making. You can only try to do both things for so long until you harm both potential paths.

Except you've failed to prove that point. You've tried bringing up salaries and playing time. Both have been thoroughly and convincingly refuted.

How many times do I need to repeat this? Never in the history of the NBA has a 50 win team had consecutive top 5 lottery picks. Not only do the Cs have that, they will likely have 3 in a row (plus other #1s from other teams the next couple of years). That is an unprecedented opportunity and with that the Celtics are not bound by the typical constraints that NBA teams face. Most teams have to pick one direction or another because they don't have the assets & the talent at the same time. So either they're making a run or they're in full rebuilding mode. 50 win teams don't have top 5 picks. Top lottery teams don't have the talent to get 50 wins. Teams don't have the luxury of being both. We do. We can compete now and restock with even better prospects for later.

Going all in is going to create a 3-4 year window right now to compete then it's over. Dedicating to the tank would get a helluva lot of assets for later but then you lose veteran leadership, the expectation of winning, the desire of FAs to join the team and you delay the window opening for 3-5 years if it ever does. Or you hold to the middle ground, continue to get better and you have what should be a decent sized window for a decade or more. I don't see where there's a substantial risk of a middle ground.

Depends on who you acquire on how long the window is.  I mean Butler, Griffin, George, Cousins (not available anymore), Hayward, etc. are all in their mid-20's.  You'd certainly expect more than 3 years from that group, especially joining Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, etc. who are also in that age range.  Let's you sign Hayward as a free agent, how exactly do you get that team to be a real legit contender without moving some of the young assets to acquire that other guy that gets you over the hump?  And if you aren't willing to move the young players/draft picks, then what exactly are you doing?  Just floating along as a 50 win team without any real shot at winning, unless the young guys hit.  Of course if your title hopes hinge on the young guys hitting, then why wouldn't you maximize those odds, but creating playing time, getting more bites at the apple, etc. 

My ideal somewhat realistic summer, would be signing Griffin as a free agent, then moving Brown, Smart, Bradley, Boston 2018 1st for Butler (I don't think you need to include a BKN pick with that package), re-signing Johnson (at a reasonable rate and short term), and then adding a veteran big and wings for depth on the bench.

So I'd go into next year with

PG - Thomas, Fultz/Ball, Jackson
SG - Butler, Vet, Rozier
SF - Crowder, Vet, Jerekbo
PF - Griffin, Johnson, Yabusele
C - Horford, Vet, Zizic

That team would have a real shot if it was healthy entering the playoffs and also alleviates a lot of the long term salary issues (by getting rid of KO, Brown, Smart, and Bradley for basically just Griffin, Butler, and some short term low dollar vets).

Those are the type of moves I'd like to see.  Roster upgrades/consolidation by using not just the cap space but some of the young assets (i.e. Brown and Smart). 

I'd rather the team just go for it now because there are no guarantees on young players (or does that only count when you are discussing Philly and not Boston).  I was very disappointed Cousins wasn't acquired (especially at the final price) because I thought he could have given Boston an actual real advantage against all of the main contenders.  I couldn't believe Boston didn't go for Noel, again helping alleviate a real weak point of the team, especially at his final price.  How much different does this team look if it would have added Cousins and Noel for Brown, Rozier, and some future 1st's.  Even someone like PJ Tucker would have helped a great deal. 

You guys are letting Ainge off the hook because of "future assets", but Boston doing nothing at the deadline was a travesty and this basic status quo of trying to win and rebuild at the same time won't work much longer.  You have to pick a direction and go with it.

Brown, Smart, Bradley, Boston 2018 1st isn't going to get us Butler.  Bradley and Smart are both getting paid after next season whereas Butler has 2 more seasons so the Bulls would be worse off financially.  Brown hasn't shown much star potential.  Smart is a role player.  Bradley is a nice starter but not a difference maker.  The Boston 2018 pick isn't worth much.

Except that was basically the package (plus Crowder and minus the pick) that the Bulls wanted for Butler at the last draft that Ainge rejected.  Bulls likely would have taken Dunn not Brown at 3, but Brown has already shown to be better than Dunn.  Given it is now later and the Bulls are apparently sold on moving Butler, they won't get a better package than that for Butler.  Again I don't do that trade in a vacuum, it is contingent on signing Griffin first (probably do it if I sign Hayward as well), but I think it is a fairly reasonable trade for Butler.

Not sure where you are getting that from.  Woj was talking about the deal beginning with a Nets pick. 
http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-bulls/wojnarowski-bulls-celtics-jimmy-butler-trade-talks-will-loom-over-entire-week

that was a he deadline not last summer before the last draft and there was no talk of any other assets because Boston wouldn't include the Nets pick for Butler. Last summer before the draft it was 3, Smart, Bradley, and Crowder that Chicago wanted.  Ainge apparently didn't want to include Crowder so the deal went away

[Bobshot]

Steve Bulpett's article in today's Herald says Danny not worried about how well we do in 2017, this team is being built for 2018 and beyond.  I couldn't agree more. See below.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/03/bulpett_celtics_have_bigger_goals_than_winning_in_this_year_s_playoffs

That was pretty evident to me at the trade deadline, from Ainge's inaction,  and I said so here.
However, I think the team has exceeded Ainge's expectations at this point. He didn't anticipate key injuries to the opposition, or he may have been more active. He probably still figures whatever happens this year is gravy. They'll come out of the season as a 50-55 win team, just short of the elite 60 wins characteristic of the great Celtics teams of the past. That looks enticing to a major free agent.

[cltc5]

That's nice of Danny to throw away a year ::)p