Author Topic: The problem for Ainge with trading  (Read 9511 times)

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Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2016, 08:39:30 AM »

Offline Eja117

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AB...nice 7th man on a nice contract

This is where I stopped reading.  If a 1st-team all defender that averaged 15 ppg with 36% shooting from 3 and over 50% on 2 pointers is someone that you think would only be the 7th best player on a contender, I don't think I need to read any more

Yep, I stopped reading too.
So AB is leading us to a championship now? Leading us to the 2nd round of the playoffs? Sorry I forgot how great AB was. I didn't realize the teams of the league are busting down Ainge's door for AB.

Coulda sworn I've seen like a million threads here that say "AB is the problem" "Trade AB" "AB will never be good." 

I just don't rate him that high. He's a good player. There are lots of good players.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2016, 08:52:06 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The group you think is better? It won 24 games.
The group you think is worse? It won 48 games. And it has the higher draft pick.

Thanks for playing, please try again.

The thanks for playing comment yet again, which is witless, was bad enough the first time you said it. 

PP is better than any player we have now.  Big Al would smoke our bigs.   I think we have better depth now.   I think we were deliberately tanking, perhaps your not old enough to recall that year?   The east is pretty watered down nowadays.  They had several teams contending here and there that were decent, more so than today.   There was no walk through the playoffs like the Cavs had this year.   I doubt our team today would win 48 games back then.

But the tank was on, Ainge tried it and we got burnt.   

We have heard teams are calling about some guys that is classic GM speak to raise their value.

Sully, Zeller, Young, rooks  = No value or very little value - Mickey and Rozier have the most.
KO - some value but not that great of value, dependent on scenario and place.
Amir, Jonas and ET  = Value for teams looking for veteran help
AB, Crowder and Smart =  AB has some value, Crowder as well but Smart is shooting his value down
IT =  star but if you deal him, you lose your only one

I included some of the free agents because they could be signed and traded.  Of them JJ, Amir and ET have the most value.   

Point is, the pick is not as good as we hoped.   The sum of our parts is less than our record on the court.  Eja, original post was stating that who wants these guys?  We have to sweeten up any deal with picks because our players are perceived as effort guys by most of the league.  AB, Crowder, Smart and IT are the exceptions and if you lose too many of them then we take a step backward not forward.

Do you really think free agents look at our team, and think I am the one guy who can put them over the top?   If you do your naive.   We lack shooting, have a hard time scoring and need rim protection and a low post option.  We are not terrible but we are slightly above good, but not elite in any way.

I am a big time Ainge supporter.   I think we are in a better position than we would have been in PP and KG just retired here.   But it is what it is, we have a team of misfits ( which was fun as heck to watch) or mismatched parts which we cobbled into a decent team but were exposed in the playoffs.   And please do not say we do not match up well with ATL, that is an excuse, if you do not match well then your lacking some players.   We did make progress.   Ainge has some ammo to make deals.  What we disagree about is the quality of that ammo.   I think Eja is correct, our ammo is not as pristine I would like.   Ainge usually adds to the team, in a way that makes us better.   He thinks out moves that help us, even if they are not big but he does not make dumb moves that often.  I trust him.

I actually think Ainge will shake it up a bit and try to get some scorers and shooters and a big or two.   Some will be through trade, I could see him packaging one of guards of value for a big. 

I could also see us signing Bazemore, Batum or Fournier level wing.   AB's value is not likely to get higher.   We really need a solid big, and another scorer without taking on a defensive liability or a guy who needs another guy beyond him to compensate for his problems like we had in Sully.   I think Okafor is a larger improved version of him.  Noel makes sense if you have a stretch four with him but it would be fun to see him get lobs from IT.  I could see us rolling with Crowder and Jonas at the four and trading for Noel and signing a wing.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2016, 09:45:23 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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The group you think is better? It won 24 games.
The group you think is worse? It won 48 games. And it has the higher draft pick.

Thanks for playing, please try again.

The thanks for playing comment yet again, which is witless, was bad enough the first time you said it. 

PP is better than any player we have now.  Big Al would smoke our bigs.   I think we have better depth now.   I think we were deliberately tanking, perhaps your not old enough to recall that year?   The east is pretty watered down nowadays.  They had several teams contending here and there that were decent, more so than today.   There was no walk through the playoffs like the Cavs had this year.   I doubt our team today would win 48 games back then.

But the tank was on, Ainge tried it and we got burnt.   

We have heard teams are calling about some guys that is classic GM speak to raise their value.

Sully, Zeller, Young, rooks  = No value or very little value - Mickey and Rozier have the most.
KO - some value but not that great of value, dependent on scenario and place.
Amir, Jonas and ET  = Value for teams looking for veteran help
AB, Crowder and Smart =  AB has some value, Crowder as well but Smart is shooting his value down
IT =  star but if you deal him, you lose your only one

I included some of the free agents because they could be signed and traded.  Of them JJ, Amir and ET have the most value.   

Point is, the pick is not as good as we hoped.   The sum of our parts is less than our record on the court.  Eja, original post was stating that who wants these guys?  We have to sweeten up any deal with picks because our players are perceived as effort guys by most of the league.  AB, Crowder, Smart and IT are the exceptions and if you lose too many of them then we take a step backward not forward.

Do you really think free agents look at our team, and think I am the one guy who can put them over the top?   If you do your naive.   We lack shooting, have a hard time scoring and need rim protection and a low post option.  We are not terrible but we are slightly above good, but not elite in any way.

I am a big time Ainge supporter.   I think we are in a better position than we would have been in PP and KG just retired here.   But it is what it is, we have a team of misfits ( which was fun as heck to watch) or mismatched parts which we cobbled into a decent team but were exposed in the playoffs.   And please do not say we do not match up well with ATL, that is an excuse, if you do not match well then your lacking some players.   We did make progress.   Ainge has some ammo to make deals.  What we disagree about is the quality of that ammo.   I think Eja is correct, our ammo is not as pristine I would like.   Ainge usually adds to the team, in a way that makes us better.   He thinks out moves that help us, even if they are not big but he does not make dumb moves that often.  I trust him.

I actually think Ainge will shake it up a bit and try to get some scorers and shooters and a big or two.   Some will be through trade, I could see him packaging one of guards of value for a big. 

I could also see us signing Bazemore, Batum or Fournier level wing.   AB's value is not likely to get higher.   We really need a solid big, and another scorer without taking on a defensive liability or a guy who needs another guy beyond him to compensate for his problems like we had in Sully.   I think Okafor is a larger improved version of him.  Noel makes sense if you have a stretch four with him but it would be fun to see him get lobs from IT.  I could see us rolling with Crowder and Jonas at the four and trading for Noel and signing a wing.

Agree with all that/  I would add that most people (please don't make me link this, it is well-understood, see COY voting results) feel the 48 wins this year was largely due to CBS.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2016, 10:24:27 AM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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Wow! With so many bad or average players we were able to be tied 3rd in the east. Imagine if we can add 2 potential max free agents that are just above average draft a stud at #3 and trade for another above average player...
Are we in the eastern conference final...?
I have seen teams with lots of above average players amount to nothing and missing the playoffs....
Beware what you wish for...
I'm fine with keeping our team of misfits below average players and add some reliable shooting and rim protection and future talent to groom and call it a night.
Fireworks come from hard working teams that play together and score efficiently, not from prima Donna super stars...
Let's not the 2008 exception fool you...

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2016, 11:06:34 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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The only thing I think you got right in the OP that was significant was that there simply may be no available star (that would be worth getting) to trade for.   There may be no "KG" on the market.

If such a star is made available, Danny has the tools to make a deal happen.   But that doesn't mean it will happen.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2016, 11:11:36 AM »

Offline walker834

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As much as people like to cast off AB, he is in the upper echelon of sg's in the NBA surprising enough.  I'd take him any day as a starting player over a lot of shooting guards.  He isn't a big stat guy but there are a million guards out there that hurt you a lot more than they help.  We win because of players like AB and lose when we don't have him on the floor for a reason.

He's not in the top class of NBA shooting guards but he's right below them. 

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2016, 11:13:24 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Agree with all that/  I would add that most people (please don't make me link this, it is well-understood, see COY voting results) feel the 48 wins this year was largely due to CBS.

Right.  The 70-42 record since the last major roster change (2015 February trade deadline) has little to to do with the change in talent on the roster as of that date.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2016, 12:22:31 PM »

Offline Eja117

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The only thing I think you got right in the OP that was significant was that there simply may be no available star (that would be worth getting) to trade for.   There may be no "KG" on the market.

If such a star is made available, Danny has the tools to make a deal happen.   But that doesn't mean it will happen.
I would definitely agree that the price goes down on disgruntled stars that don't want to be there

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2016, 12:32:01 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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As much as people like to cast off AB, he is in the upper echelon of sg's in the NBA surprising enough.  I'd take him any day as a starting player over a lot of shooting guards.  He isn't a big stat guy but there are a million guards out there that hurt you a lot more than they help.  We win because of players like AB and lose when we don't have him on the floor for a reason.

He's not in the top class of NBA shooting guards but he's right below them.
Tier 1
Klay Thompson
James Harden
Dwayne Wade
Jimmy Butler
McCollum
Derozan
Tier 2
Bradley
Middleton
Wiggins
Redick

Thats probably how Id parse em out, maybe Booker belongs in that second tier

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2016, 12:33:53 PM »

Offline PaulP34

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You can't compare this off season to 2007's because the roster is much different. We had Paul Pierce to build around and we had a very deep (experienced) bench. Where you can add two all stars around Paul and it was the difference. This time all we have is an all star point guard and a bunch of other defensive guards who are almost there. What the Celtics need is an all star PF or SF. That's a position that's much easier to build around yet much harder to find. We will get that player but its gonna take luck and a few years to develop. Whether its Bender or someone else in the draft. We will have a championship team again I am confident in that. But it won't be by a miracle trade like back in 2007. Danny has to build this next contender by scratch.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2016, 12:45:56 PM »

Offline PaulP34

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The only thing I think you got right in the OP that was significant was that there simply may be no available star (that would be worth getting) to trade for.   There may be no "KG" on the market.

If such a star is made available, Danny has the tools to make a deal happen.   But that doesn't mean it will happen.

I agree. We can go all out for a superstar in a trade by selling our assets but then we are stuck with 2 all stars and a bunch of scrubs and no future picks. That would be pointless

IMO the next Lebron is out there and we just have to find him. Stay the course, if we trade the 3rd pick, make sure we get equal compensation and move up to get that PF we need. I think we can find a great talent in the top 10 if we can package picks together to move up. I'm pretty confident Danny knows what he's looking for.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 12:51:13 PM by PaulP34 »

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2016, 01:25:57 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Agree with all that/  I would add that most people (please don't make me link this, it is well-understood, see COY voting results) feel the 48 wins this year was largely due to CBS.

Right.  The 70-42 record since the last major roster change (2015 February trade deadline) has little to to do with the change in talent on the roster as of that date.

Fans like to downplay their players......

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2016, 03:20:08 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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The trade for KG was a perfect storm. Minnesota was on a treadmill and ready to shift gears. I think the assets are better now or at least equal. I also think people overrate the KG years. It was supposed to be a three year window and it kind of was. They overachieved. If Shaq could have lasted one more year. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. We weren't even supposed to win in the first year. That was going to be the transition year. We almost lost in the first two series because we were losing all the road games. It was a magical year. Was it 66 wins? Whatever. The 2007-08 Celtics won us a title. Those are not overrated, but say KG broke down in the first and not the second year. It would have been a punch to the sports fan's gut.

Al Jefferson and the #5 pick were Danny's only true assets back in the day. Pierce was the base. Delonte West showed promise, but he was not worth as much as Bradley is now. And Al Jefferson back then was probably not worth much more than Isaiah or even Smart. Danny has so many more assets today than then that even if no one now represents the Al Jefferson asset, he can more than make that up. Ryan Gomes was a scrub with some potential. Wally Zerbs was cooked. I forget who else there was. Telfair was a scrub.

I think Danny should sign Dwight Howard. Roll the dice with him if we must do fireworks. Make it two years or something reasonable. Or people just might need to be patient and think the long game and not pressure Danny into giving away everything for Kevin Love.

Danny's biggest problem is not that he has a weak roster. Our roster is strong and underrated. I agree with the person who says Stevens is not the only explanation.

Danny's problem is that he's a shark and dominates trades, at least over the last several years. People downplay the KG trade saying it was his buddy Kevin McHale doing him a favor. There may be a bit of truth to that one, but Ainge has won several other trades. Other GM's might be wary of trading with Danny Ainge. That's his problem. That's what I think.

Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2016, 04:57:36 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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The problem is that Ainge has so many assets that even the stupid GMs understand they should ask for a lot in any trade with the Celtics.  The best shot at trading for a star is probably finding a team that wants to salary dump an over-30 player who it thinks is going to fall off the cliff but actually isn't or finding a player who was in Jae Crowder's situation when he was on the Mavs.
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Re: The problem for Ainge with trading
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »

Offline walker834

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As much as people like to cast off AB, he is in the upper echelon of sg's in the NBA surprising enough.  I'd take him any day as a starting player over a lot of shooting guards.  He isn't a big stat guy but there are a million guards out there that hurt you a lot more than they help.  We win because of players like AB and lose when we don't have him on the floor for a reason.

He's not in the top class of NBA shooting guards but he's right below them.
Tier 1
Klay Thompson
James Harden
Dwayne Wade
Jimmy Butler
McCollum
Derozan
Tier 2
Bradley
Middleton
Wiggins
Redick

Thats probably how Id parse em out, maybe Booker belongs in that second tier

Yeah Bradley is a top 10 sg right after the top 6.  Isaiah is a top 5 pg as well.  Crowder is a top 15 small forward. But people still see these guys as 7th men in the nba for some reason.  We need better players and a couple guys who are tops but all 3 of those guys were in the top half at their respective positions last year.