POB...Catching Doc's eye?

[BudweiserCeltic]

The optimism seems premature regarding POB.  Despite the sarcasm that we should "wring our hands" because POB has not yet learned to play alongside KG after only 2 days of practice...the fact remains that we should TEMPER our optimism until POB has actually learned to play alongside KG.

We still remain a TEAM and the whole should equal the sum of its parts (or exceed it) and that takes 5 players who have LEARNED to complement one another.  Until POB crosses that bridge we should temper our optimism concerning his potential value to this team....

In the interim we can feel good that POB is thus far meeting Danny's expectations....

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

don't talk crazy bud, you know that the norm in boston is to be pessimistic until proven otherwise 

Which sucks, it never makes for good discussion. That's why I have refrained from commenting on these issues until I've actually seen how these guys perform on our team.

Funny thing is that most of the time the negative people are the minority if the community, but they're the loudest. It's pretty much the same in most places. Funny how if you ran polls about the signing of Darius Miles, most people liked the move, but then you see how the people are commenting in the forums, and you'd see a ton of negativity.

But whatever, it won't be long till I see what these guys can actually bring to our team.

[cordobes]

The optimism seems premature regarding POB.  Despite the sarcasm that we should "wring our hands" because POB has not yet learned to play alongside KG after only 2 days of practice...the fact remains that we should TEMPER our optimism until POB has actually learned to play alongside KG.

We still remain a TEAM and the whole should equal the sum of its parts (or exceed it) and that takes 5 players who have LEARNED to complement one another.  Until POB crosses that bridge we should temper our optimism concerning his potential value to this team....

In the interim we can feel good that POB is thus far meeting Danny's expectations....

Just out of curiosity, are you including Doc and Danny on the pessimist camp?

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

[BudweiserCeltic]

The optimism seems premature regarding POB.  Despite the sarcasm that we should "wring our hands" because POB has not yet learned to play alongside KG after only 2 days of practice...the fact remains that we should TEMPER our optimism until POB has actually learned to play alongside KG.

We still remain a TEAM and the whole should equal the sum of its parts (or exceed it) and that takes 5 players who have LEARNED to complement one another.  Until POB crosses that bridge we should temper our optimism concerning his potential value to this team....

In the interim we can feel good that POB is thus far meeting Danny's expectations....

Just out of curiosity, are you including Doc and Danny on the pessimist camp?

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

Why should I? Danny was the guy that brought him here and Doc hasn't really commented on him much, but has had quite some positive things to say about him as of late.

[BballTim]

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

  If you're optimistic about anything that's unknown you're a kool-aid drinker or a homer. If you're pessimistic about the same thing you're "realistic" and "unbiased". Such is life on celticsblog.

[bucknersrevenge]

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

  If you're optimistic about anything that's unknown you're a kool-aid drinker or a homer. If you're pessimistic about the same thing you're "realistic" and "unbiased". Such is life on celticsblog.

That's kind of the way I feel. I don't need to have my brains beat in about the need to temper my enthusiasm about certain young Celtic players everytime a poster has the unmitigated gall to post something positive about said player. Everyone has the right to view the team or any player how they want which we all do and thats great. I just think it's gotta suck sometimes to be a Celtic fan always injecting "reality" and "tempered enthusiasm" into everything. Hell how do you get up for a game that way? I mean who watches Celtics games and turns to a fellow fan and says "you should temper your expectation for a win tonight..."? Hey to each his own, right? But talk about kiljoy...

[cordobes]

The optimism seems premature regarding POB.  Despite the sarcasm that we should "wring our hands" because POB has not yet learned to play alongside KG after only 2 days of practice...the fact remains that we should TEMPER our optimism until POB has actually learned to play alongside KG.

We still remain a TEAM and the whole should equal the sum of its parts (or exceed it) and that takes 5 players who have LEARNED to complement one another.  Until POB crosses that bridge we should temper our optimism concerning his potential value to this team....

In the interim we can feel good that POB is thus far meeting Danny's expectations....

Just out of curiosity, are you including Doc and Danny on the pessimist camp?

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

Why should I? Danny was the guy that brought him here and Doc hasn't really commented on him much, but has had quite some positive things to say about him as of late.

Danny said a few weeks ago that the position that concerns him most in our current roster is the center. Just yesterday, Doc voiced his wish to see PJ coming back (or have length at the post) in a very assertive way. I completely agree with them. I don't mind the O'Bryant signing, because it's a lateral move, but it's not reasonable to expect him to contribute much more than Pollard did last season. Not saying it's impossible to happen (this is important), just that's something one can't rely upon as the current state of affairs stands.

I think people often confuse optimism/pessimism with assessment. But the firsts belong strictly to the realm of hope.

I mean, do you believe that Balkman has indeed developed a range in his jump-shot? I don't, because just a few months ago he couldn't hit the Atlantic Ocean with his jumper. It's possible, for sure; but it would be an unique event in the history of the development of basketball players. So, what's reasonable to assume? Teams like to ignite the excitement among their fanbase and having a flexible relationship with the current skillset of their players helps the cause. But if you're a Denver fan, would you believe, just for the sake of being an "optimistic"?

The basketball skills of a player don't change if the observer is a pessimist or an optimist, I'm pretty sure of this. They are what they are. Same for potential. One can disagree about them - I disagree with myself very often; and some players are very difficult to read. But being optimistic or pessimist has not, or shouldn't have, a place on these conversations.

For example, when we drafted Walker I decided to watch 6 of his college games available on film and carefully scouted him. My verdict, that I wrote on a post somewhere over here, was that he wasn't ready to play in a NBA team like the Celtics and that the best solution for him would probably be going to Europe or play in the developmental league. Some called me a pessimist, for sure. But later on, we were able to know that Ainge's original plan was indeed to stash him in Europe.  That's what Walker was when he played his last game in the NCAA tournament: a player who wasn't good enough to contribute to a NBA team. I was always quite sure about this assessment. Has that changed because he became a Celtic and we root for the Celtics? Nope, it has changed because he developed his game mightily, to the point of unexpected, during the Summer.

O'Bryant never showed he could be able to defend the post. It was blatantly evident he couldn't. Doesn't know how to use leverage to hold position, forgets to get a hand up on the opponent shot, gives up the space to the opponent, displays a laid-back attitude, is somewhat poor hedging screens and has no idea of the footwork needed to defend the 1on1 on the post. I know these things take time to be corrected. Time (more than a Summer), hard work  and innate physical tools. We have plenty of time; I think he may have the tools, although I can't now for sure; I'm neutral about the desire to work hard because his record is not good but maybe a new environment can help - we'll have to wait and see. Now, I accept if someone says that my assessment is wrong because I'm missing this or that. Happens a lot. But optimism and pessimism? Those are arguments that don't belong in a discussion about basketball. What's exactly the point? I am generally an optimist, but I just don't get it.

[billysan]

You mean the same way people should TEMPER their pessimism that has been shown towards POB since the day he signed, right?

  If you're optimistic about anything that's unknown you're a kool-aid drinker or a homer. If you're pessimistic about the same thing you're "realistic" and "unbiased". Such is life on celticsblog.

That's kind of the way I feel. I don't need to have my brains beat in about the need to temper my enthusiasm about certain young Celtic players everytime a poster has the unmitigated gall to post something positive about said player. Everyone has the right to view the team or any player how they want which we all do and thats great. I just think it's gotta suck sometimes to be a Celtic fan always injecting "reality" and "tempered enthusiasm" into everything. Hell how do you get up for a game that way? I mean who watches Celtics games and turns to a fellow fan and says "you should temper your expectation for a win tonight..."? Hey to each his own, right? But talk about kiljoy...

Thanks for echoing my own feelings guys. I cant wait to see how POB is doing after his first couple of exhibition games. I for one want him to do well, just like all of our new players. He certainly has the talent. I guarantee Doc and the big three will be talking him up and 'accentuating his positives' as well. That what good coaches and good teammates do. I promise Paul Pierce is talking up and praising Bill Walker. The same goes for Ray Allen and JR Giddens.

If this guy is a slug and not putting forth any real effort, he will be gone soon enough. As long as he is going after it hard, the team and coaching staff will stand behind him. That is obviously the case here isnt it?

[BballTim]

The basketball skills of a player don't change if the observer is a pessimist or an optimist, I'm pretty sure of this. They are what they are. Same for potential. One can disagree about them - I disagree with myself very often; and some players are very difficult to read. But being optimistic or pessimist has not, or shouldn't have, a place on these conversations.

For example, when we drafted Walker I decided to watch 6 of his college games available on film and carefully scouted him. My verdict, that I wrote on a post somewhere over here, was that he wasn't ready to play in a NBA team like the Celtics and that the best solution for him would probably be going to Europe or play in the developmental league. Some called me a pessimist, for sure. But later on, we were able to know that Ainge's original plan was indeed to stash him in Europe.  That's what Walker was when he played his last game in the NCAA tournament: a player who wasn't good enough to contribute to a NBA team. I was always quite sure about this assessment. Has that changed because he became a Celtic and we root for the Celtics? Nope, it has changed because he developed his game mightily, to the point of unexpected, during the Summer.

  Ainge's plan to stash Walker overseas was probably influenced by the fact that he was still hoping to have Posey on the team. But even if he agreed with your assessment it could still be incorrect, just like someone drafting POB in the lottery wouldn't validate a glowing assessment of him. If Walker contributes this year then your assessment of him was wrong. Not saying you will be wrong, but clearly as a fan of the team I hope you are.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Cordobes, the thing is that there are many different issues here. One issue is wether POB is skilled enough to play the game, or at least fit in our team. Another issue was his worth ethic. Another issue was wether or not he was in shape. Another issue is the role that Ainge envisioned for POB when he decided to sign him. Another issue is the depth at the position.

What many of the "pessimists" did was that they rolled all those issues into one, cocluded that POB was a bust (without even seeing him play), and since they concluded that POB was a bust, then Danny was an utter moron for not getting another center (when we all know that the roster is not finished), and then did the "Sky is Falling" dance.

As far as I know, when Ainge made those comments about the center position he didn't explain in detail what about the position he was worried about. Was he worried about health issues? Was he worried about the depth? Was he only making it known that he plans to sign another center regardless of POB's performance? Was he simply worried about Perk's health? Was he merely expressing his concern with the experience level? Was it a comment based on height in the position? Was he worried about POB just being a crappy player that won't be useful at all? Many chose to believe that it was this last one. It was a baseless assumption. One baseless assumption I would make is, that if we still had PJ Brown (and not POB), Ainge would've still made a comment that he would like to make the center position stronger.

And you also mention "the observer". Fact is that few here are doing actual observing (especially when it comes to POB), and that's the problem. Without doing actual obseving, you can't do much of that "assessment" that you mention. This has been premature judgement central all summer. As I said, I'll just remain quiet on the issue until I actually see this guy play with our team. And even if he ends up being a piece of crap, we still have a LOOONG way to go, and the issues should be dealt with when the time comes.

You mentioned your analysis of Bill Walker, that I liked. But just like that you have to put what you watch into context. For one, in the videos you analyzed you admited that he wasn't in the same shape that Bill Walker has been shown to be in since the summer. That's a huge factor to consider. So you can't always base your opinions on what you have actually observed in the past... you have to put it into context, just as you would put stats into context.

I consider myself a level guy, and I like actual facts to base my opinions on. I've taken a lot of heat because of my observations regarding Rondo and Powe, I'm pretty sure many think I hate the guys, when I actually love them. But facts are facts, but when it comes to POB, very few of these assessments are based on actual facts. Most are based on second hand information and on crappy articles that simply love to ommit things because they always have some agenda and story they want to tell. And fact is, that many of these "facts" people are using may no longer be an issue. And since they are no longer an issue, conclusions drawn from them are simply flawed. For one, how many of here concluded that he would be a bust because of that article about 3 months ago about POB being winded in practice? The verdict, "POB is out of shape, he's a bust". Come on, you don't think that he would be in better shape after 3-4 months of offseason training?

The problem is that people act as if the know, but they don't. In other threads, they might throw POB under "the unknowns" club. But then they act as if the position is a disaster because, they KNOW he's a bust. Doesn't make sense to me. Few, if anyone, here actually know what this guy is actually about. I'll wait and see.

[cordobes]

The basketball skills of a player don't change if the observer is a pessimist or an optimist, I'm pretty sure of this. They are what they are. Same for potential. One can disagree about them - I disagree with myself very often; and some players are very difficult to read. But being optimistic or pessimist has not, or shouldn't have, a place on these conversations.

For example, when we drafted Walker I decided to watch 6 of his college games available on film and carefully scouted him. My verdict, that I wrote on a post somewhere over here, was that he wasn't ready to play in a NBA team like the Celtics and that the best solution for him would probably be going to Europe or play in the developmental league. Some called me a pessimist, for sure. But later on, we were able to know that Ainge's original plan was indeed to stash him in Europe.  That's what Walker was when he played his last game in the NCAA tournament: a player who wasn't good enough to contribute to a NBA team. I was always quite sure about this assessment. Has that changed because he became a Celtic and we root for the Celtics? Nope, it has changed because he developed his game mightily, to the point of unexpected, during the Summer.

  Ainge's plan to stash Walker overseas was probably influenced by the fact that he was still hoping to have Posey on the team. But even if he agreed with your assessment it could still be incorrect, just like someone drafting POB in the lottery wouldn't validate a glowing assessment of him. If Walker contributes this year then your assessment of him was wrong. Not saying you will be wrong, but clearly as a fan of the team I hope you are.

No, because I never said it would be impossible for him to contribute this year. Have you even read the assessment we're talking about?

Here's a quote from it:

Now, let me say that all these flaws I’ve pointed out are very correctable – except the long-range jumper, that will take time to develop, if ever; and his tendency to overplay, that will require intense team-play practicing and playing time. Most of the others are correctable in the short-term, given good coaching. In fact, even a Summer of hard work can help a lot.(...)

Walker is said to be a very hard-working and smart kid, with a huge desire to be great. If that’s accurate, and considering he’s only 20 years old, there’s no reason he can’t improve his overall skills very quickly, barring enduring effects from his injuries.

http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=20611.0

I'm not saying I wasn't wrong, I'm wrong all the time. However, if you want to prove me wrong, there's only one way of doing it: present you reasons and arguments. Check those games where Walker played and tell me what I'm missed. Honestly, I'd appreciate that very much; it's always good to confront opinions because one always learns a lot. As I wrote on the same assessment:

Being aware that Walker has so many fans over here – and I’m one of them since he was drafted, dissents are welcomed

To sum it up: this is not, in my view, a prediction game. I find those utterly childish, not my kind of stuff. An argument about the skillset of a player, yeah, that's welcomed.

[kharrig1]

Patty O has never had success at any level as a player.  He played pretty good his sophmore year at Bradley, but by no means dominant.  He blocked a lot of shots, but he played praying mantis defense the whole year, and its pretty easy to block shots in a mid major if you're an athletic 7 footer.  And that is the part of him that people love, its a sexy phrase, athletic 7 footer, look at the sonics they drafted, Swift, Petro, and Sene, and big bob the goth is the only one who has shown a flash of talent.  By saying that POB is not good,I am not making an assumption of the unknown, I in fact can look at his career, and tell you he isn't good.  Now for someone to say that POB is going to be good, that's fine if you believe that, but there is no evidence to support the claim. 

[cordobes]

Cordobes, the thing is that there are many different issues here. One issue is wether POB is skilled enough to play the game, or at least fit in our team. Another issue was his worth ethic. Another issue was wether or not he was in shape. Another issue is the role that Ainge envisioned for POB when he decided to sign him. Another issue is the depth at the position.

What many of the "pessimists" did was that they rolled all those issues into one, cocluded that POB was a bust (without even seeing him play), and since they concluded that POB was a bust, then Danny was an utter moron for not getting another center (when we all know that the roster is not finished), and then did the "Sky is Falling" dance.

As far as I know, when Ainge made those comments about the center position he didn't explain in detail what about the position he was worried about. Was he worried about health issues? Was he worried about the depth? Was he only making it known that he plans to sign another center regardless of POB's performance? Was he simply worried about Perk's health? Was he merely expressing his concern with the experience level? Was it a comment based on height in the position? Was he worried about POB just being a crappy player that won't be useful at all? Many chose to believe that it was this last one. It was a baseless assumption. One baseless assumption I would make is, that if we still had PJ Brown (and not POB), Ainge would've still made a comment that he would like to make the center position stronger.

And you also mention "the observer". Fact is that few here are doing actual observing (especially when it comes to POB), and that's the problem. Without doing actual obseving, you can't do much of that "assessment" that you mention. This has been premature judgement central all summer. As I said, I'll just remain quiet on the issue until I actually see this guy play with our team. And even if he ends up being a piece of crap, we still have a LOOONG way to go, and the issues should be dealt with when the time comes.

You mentioned your analysis of Bill Walker, that I liked. But just like that you have to put what you watch into context. For one, in the videos you analyzed you admited that he wasn't in the same shape that Bill Walker has been shown to be in since the summer. That's a huge factor to consider. So you can't always base your opinions on what you have actually observed in the past... you have to put it into context, just as you would put stats into context.

I consider myself a level guy, and I like actual facts to base my opinions on. I've taken a lot of heat because of my observations regarding Rondo and Powe, I'm pretty sure many think I hate the guys, when I actually love them. But facts are facts, but when it comes to POB, very few of these assessments are based on actual facts. Most are based on second hand information and on crappy articles that simply love to ommit things because they always have some agenda and story they want to tell. And fact is, that many of these "facts" people are using may no longer be an issue. And since they are no longer an issue, conclusions drawn from them are simply flawed. For one, how many of here concluded that he would be a bust because of that article about 3 months ago about POB being winded in practice? The verdict, "POB is out of shape, he's a bust". Come on, you don't think that he would be in better shape after 3-4 months of offseason training?

The problem is that people act as if the know, but they don't. In other threads, they might throw POB under "the unknowns" club. But then they act as if the position is a disaster because, they KNOW he's a bust. Doesn't make sense to me. Few, if anyone, here actually know what this guy is actually about. I'll wait and see.

Meh... that generic "pessimists" label doesn't do anything for me. I think we shall get another center before the playoffs, but I also believe the current roster will do during the regular season. The problem, as I see it, it's more about risk: no matter how well POB or BBD do during the regular season, it's hard to predict if they can contribute what we need during the playoffs. If a guy like PJ is available, I see no reason to not grab him. There's simply no need to take more risk than needed. If the youngster are going fine, you can always keep them on the floor.

You make a fair point about context, but I think I have considered it. One always take assumptions - for example, that Posey would stay on the team and that Walker would spend much of the Summer rehabing his injured knee. When analyzing and predicting the development of a player, some things are plausible, some are not so much. But even those that don't look feasible can happen, it's just that the probability is so low that it doesn't merit consideration. Then, there are others that I, as a fan, as someone who doesn't make a living out of basketball, don't have the skills or the knowledge to assess. On those, I opt for being agnostic. When it comes to predict how a player will develop I frequently have no idea. For example, when Posey signed in Nawlins, I was of the opinion that Allen was the better option available to fill that role. Is he going to succeed? I really don't know. He can be great, he can be a disaster. I hope for the first, but I don't understand why should I omit my fears about the second scenario.

What's more important, and that in some way sums up my point, is that you can't factor hope, your personal wishes, when analyzing a player - or, to phrase it in another way, that the assumptions you work with shall be plausible and realistic. I mean, players don't become magically better when they sign for the Celtics, although we'd all wish that to happen. I become a fan of them, I start having hope they progress more than the norm, but, in the end, they still are what they are.

Again: if you were a Nuggets fan, would you believe that Balkman now has a jump-shot? Personally, I'd wish it was true, but I wouldn't believe till I'd the chance of seeing it with my own eyes because it's not plausible. I see no reason to adopt a different standard when it comes to Celtics players just because I'm a fan of the team. I mean, it's surely not a dangerous thing, and, has I said before, I don't mind it all, but then you have discussions and conversations "wishful thinking based" in opposition to "reality based".

Some players are hard to read. Others are very transparent. O'Bryant deficiencies in the post are, I think, easily to grasp, even by the most casual fan. As you say, facts are facts, and when facts are easily available there's no reason to ignore them.

I fully agree with your approach though: you'll have a hard time finding out an opinion of mine on JR Giddens, simply because I've never seen him playing. But, once again, this has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism. Being skeptical (in the true sense of the word) about the fluff pieces on NBA players, no matter what team they play for, during the pre-season is not pessimism. I'd call it mental sanity.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Cordobes, the thing is that there are many different issues here. One issue is wether POB is skilled enough to play the game, or at least fit in our team. Another issue was his worth ethic. Another issue was wether or not he was in shape. Another issue is the role that Ainge envisioned for POB when he decided to sign him. Another issue is the depth at the position.

What many of the "pessimists" did was that they rolled all those issues into one, cocluded that POB was a bust (without even seeing him play), and since they concluded that POB was a bust, then Danny was an utter moron for not getting another center (when we all know that the roster is not finished), and then did the "Sky is Falling" dance.

As far as I know, when Ainge made those comments about the center position he didn't explain in detail what about the position he was worried about. Was he worried about health issues? Was he worried about the depth? Was he only making it known that he plans to sign another center regardless of POB's performance? Was he simply worried about Perk's health? Was he merely expressing his concern with the experience level? Was it a comment based on height in the position? Was he worried about POB just being a crappy player that won't be useful at all? Many chose to believe that it was this last one. It was a baseless assumption. One baseless assumption I would make is, that if we still had PJ Brown (and not POB), Ainge would've still made a comment that he would like to make the center position stronger.

And you also mention "the observer". Fact is that few here are doing actual observing (especially when it comes to POB), and that's the problem. Without doing actual obseving, you can't do much of that "assessment" that you mention. This has been premature judgement central all summer. As I said, I'll just remain quiet on the issue until I actually see this guy play with our team. And even if he ends up being a piece of crap, we still have a LOOONG way to go, and the issues should be dealt with when the time comes.

You mentioned your analysis of Bill Walker, that I liked. But just like that you have to put what you watch into context. For one, in the videos you analyzed you admited that he wasn't in the same shape that Bill Walker has been shown to be in since the summer. That's a huge factor to consider. So you can't always base your opinions on what you have actually observed in the past... you have to put it into context, just as you would put stats into context.

I consider myself a level guy, and I like actual facts to base my opinions on. I've taken a lot of heat because of my observations regarding Rondo and Powe, I'm pretty sure many think I hate the guys, when I actually love them. But facts are facts, but when it comes to POB, very few of these assessments are based on actual facts. Most are based on second hand information and on crappy articles that simply love to ommit things because they always have some agenda and story they want to tell. And fact is, that many of these "facts" people are using may no longer be an issue. And since they are no longer an issue, conclusions drawn from them are simply flawed. For one, how many of here concluded that he would be a bust because of that article about 3 months ago about POB being winded in practice? The verdict, "POB is out of shape, he's a bust". Come on, you don't think that he would be in better shape after 3-4 months of offseason training?

The problem is that people act as if the know, but they don't. In other threads, they might throw POB under "the unknowns" club. But then they act as if the position is a disaster because, they KNOW he's a bust. Doesn't make sense to me. Few, if anyone, here actually know what this guy is actually about. I'll wait and see.

Meh... that generic "pessimists" label doesn't do anything for me. I think we shall get another center before the playoffs, but I also believe the current roster will do during the regular season. The problem, as I see it, it's more about risk: no matter how well POB or BBD do during the regular season, it's hard to predict if they can contribute what we need during the playoffs. If a guy like PJ is available, I see no reason to not grab him. There's simply no need to take more risk than needed. If the youngster are going fine, you can always keep them on the floor.

You make a fair point about context, but I think I have considered it. One always take assumptions - for example, that Posey would stay on the team and that Walker would spend much of the Summer rehabing his injured knee. When analyzing and predicting the development of a player, some things are plausible, some are not so much. But even those that don't look feasible can happen, it's just that the probability is so low that it doesn't merit consideration. Then, there are others that I, as a fan, as someone who doesn't make a living out of basketball, don't have the skills or the knowledge to assess. On those, I opt for being agnostic. When it comes to predict how a player will develop I frequently have no idea. For example, when Posey signed in Nawlins, I was of the opinion that Allen was the better option available to fill that role. Is he going to succeed? I really don't know. He can be great, he can be a disaster. I hope for the first, but I don't understand why should I omit my fears about the second scenario.

What's more important, and that in some way sums up my point, is that you can't factor hope, your personal wishes, when analyzing a player - or, to phrase it in another way, that the assumptions you work with shall be plausible and realistic. I mean, players don't become magically better when they sign for the Celtics, although we'd all wish that to happen. I become a fan of them, I start having hope they progress more than the norm, but, in the end, they still are what they are.

Again: if you were a Nuggets fan, would you believe that Balkman now has a jump-shot? Personally, I'd wish it was true, but I wouldn't believe till I'd the chance of seeing it with my own eyes because it's not plausible. I see no reason to adopt a different standard when it comes to Celtics players just because I'm a fan of the team. I mean, it's surely not a dangerous thing, and, has I said before, I don't mind it all, but then you have discussions and conversations "wishful thinking based" in opposition to "reality based".

Some players are hard to read. Others are very transparent. O'Bryant deficiencies in the post are, I think, easily to grasp, even by the most casual fan. As you say, facts are facts, and when facts are easily available there's no reason to ignore them.

I fully agree with your approach though: you'll have a hard time finding out an opinion of mine on JR Giddens, simply because I've never seen him playing. But, once again, this has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism. Being skeptical (in the true sense of the word) about the fluff pieces on NBA players, no matter what team they play for, during the pre-season is not pessimism. I'd call it mental sanity.

Thing is that I wasn't even thinking of you when I was talking about pessimists. I know you like your research. If I was going to argue with you, I would argue with you on what type of research you did and wether or not I feel that the materials you used are enough.

I was mainly talking about the vast amount of people that talk as if our roster is a disaster (or even if it's just the center position) and making statements as if POB is a complete failure (since we signed him) when they've clearly never seen him play. And if they've seen him play, it has been for like 2 minutes or because of youtube clips.

Let me put it this way. I'd have no problems with pessimists if they actually based their opinions of facts, instead of baseless assumptions. In the context of POB, you can agree with me that most pessimists and optimists here alike don't know squat about him. I'd take a cool-aid drinker that doesn't know anything (but at least gives the place a good atmosphere) over the alternative.

Many of the posts from BillfromBoston over the summer have been attacking posts like this, he's done the job for me.

[nickagneta]

I'm sure many of you have me pegged as a pessimist but you would be as far distant from what I am if you said so. What I do is I look at what is given, analyze it and make a decision. If that is one in which I think a player will do well, people will call me an optimist. If it is a decision that something will not go well, then people will call me a pessimist.

Before last season started and still to this day I laud praise all over Rajon Rondo. I have felt from half way through his rookie year that he has been something special and will be. Don't believe me? Go take a look at my posts from those times. MikeDfromNP and I were two of the bigger Rondo shills around.

What I did was analyze what I saw, decided that this kid had what it took to be something great and have always defended and praised him. Until he proves me wrong I will do that.

Now, Darius Miles situation I have analyzed and have come to the conclusion that he will not make the team because ultimately his knee won't hold up. Do I have any more info than anyone else? No. But I have discussed the situation over with two friends of mine who are giant Celtic fans and orthopedic surgeons and they led me to believe that they agree with me. So, I made my decision on Miles and will stick to it until Miles proves me wrong.

So am I a pessimist or an optimist?

I defended Doc Rivers until I was blue in the face and until my fingertips hurt during all last year. I thought he had what it took to be a championship winning coach. I was in the vast minority at this site with that opinion. But Doc proved me right. If you happened to read any of my defenses of Doc Rivers last year you probably came away with the idea I was an eternal optimist.

I don't think Danny Ainge did a very good job with the offseason. I have defended my position quite a bit here. I still feel I am right. Until the season proves me wrong I will continue to have this decision. But anyone who has read what I have said on the subject probably thinks I'm a pessimistic Celtic fan.

So am I an optimist or a pessimist?

I have said from the beginning that I have never seen O'Bryant play and will wait to see what he has before commenting one way or the other. Hence, my statement earlier in this thread that we should probably temper our excitement. I don't know what to expect out of him and I'm not going to go wild or kill the guy over 3 days of practice.

I have never commented on Miles game. Check my posts. I don't think his knee will hold up. If it does, however, hold up against all the odds that doctors have laid on it, he could be a very, very valuable piece to this puzzle for years to come.

I have never commented one way or the other on Giddens, I don't know anything about him.

I have seen Walker play a few times and the times I did he was the best player on the floor. I like his game and think eventually he will be a very good NBA player. Maybe not this year, but eventually.

So am I an optimist or a pessimist?

I think the answer to that question is firmly in everyone else's hands but mine. I have positive views about certain aspects of this team and negative ones regarding other aspects.

But none of that in any way, shape, or form gets in the way of my cheering on my team or supporting them, or losing my voice yelling for them when at games, or getting stoked that it's game time or that the season is finally only a couple of weeks away.

And that's the important thing here.

I am no less a fan, no less vocal or supportive or manically positive about this team when it comes to cheering them on and watching them and hoping they do well. It's just I don't think that every part of this team is perfect and will say so and defend my stance until proven wrong.

And if I'm wrong I'll say so.

I supported Sam Cassell when he first got here and was very "optimistic". He sucked. He sucked bad. So I acknowledged that publicly and now have a different view. Don't believe me? Ask EJPLAYA, we had quite the debate over the subject.

[gar]

Have been a hopeful supporter of POB all summer. For his sake and for the team; however Clifford Ray seemed very noncommittal about his progress in the You tube interview. http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=22752.msg364683#msg364683
Also was hoping the kid would put some meat on his bones; however in the practice pics he looks skinny as ever.