Where is the defense on the road? Where is the leadership on the road?

[Hondo]

Stop the bickering?     What fun would that be....

[wdleehi]

Can you just rely on your defense on the road?

1.  Isn't it a given that the home team will probably shoot better in their own gym.

2.  Isn't it also a given that the probably will get more calls at home resulting in more free-throw attempts.

Watched part of the LA game today.  LA is a good defensive team, but it was their offense that gave them a chance to win this game today. 

We had 13 points at the end of the first quarter, and 35 at half.  We spent the whole game playing uphill.  You almost can't play good enough defense at that point to give yourself a chance.

Last problem I have with this method.  We seem to be playing to try to win close games on the road.  We would sub ourselves out of leads in the Hawk series and then try to win it in the final 2 minutes.  Unfortunately we haven't been able to execute all that well in the final two minutes and the opponents have. 

I haven't seen any other coach in the playoffs sit their starting players for such extended minutes.  Not the Lakers coach, Not SA coach, Not the Utah coach, heck not even the Cleveland Coach.  Somehow I think those coaches may know something about coaching in general and playoff coaching in particular. 

Again, has the offense been better at home?


No.  It has been pretty much the same.


The defense is the difference.  A 25 point difference. 

[WedmanIsMyHero]

You are right, but here is a rephrased version of the argument Hondo was making.  It is true that the Celtics are averaging within 3 points of their home scoring average on the road (though both are down quite a bit from the regular season). 

However, you have to *expect* teams will score more at home in the playoffs.  This means if you want to win on the road in the playoffs, you  have to be able to score MORE than you normally would score.

Can you just rely on your defense on the road?

1.  Isn't it a given that the home team will probably shoot better in their own gym.

2.  Isn't it also a given that the probably will get more calls at home resulting in more free-throw attempts.

Watched part of the LA game today.  LA is a good defensive team, but it was their offense that gave them a chance to win this game today. 

We had 13 points at the end of the first quarter, and 35 at half.  We spent the whole game playing uphill.  You almost can't play good enough defense at that point to give yourself a chance.

Last problem I have with this method.  We seem to be playing to try to win close games on the road.  We would sub ourselves out of leads in the Hawk series and then try to win it in the final 2 minutes.  Unfortunately we haven't been able to execute all that well in the final two minutes and the opponents have. 

I haven't seen any other coach in the playoffs sit their starting players for such extended minutes.  Not the Lakers coach, Not SA coach, Not the Utah coach, heck not even the Cleveland Coach.  Somehow I think those coaches may know something about coaching in general and playoff coaching in particular. 

Again, has the offense been better at home?


No.  It has been pretty much the same.


The defense is the difference.  A 25 point difference. 

[wdleehi]

You are right, but here is a rephrased version of the argument Hondo was making.  It is true that the Celtics are averaging within 3 points of their home scoring average on the road (though both are down quite a bit from the regular season). 

However, you have to *expect* teams will score more at home in the playoffs.  This means if you want to win on the road in the playoffs, you  have to be able to score MORE than you normally would score.

I agree teams should score a little more at home.

3-6 points a game.




Celtics are allowing roughly 25 more a game on the road. 


3-6 points a game, Celtics would not have lost a game yet in this playoffs with the offense they have been playing.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

That's fair.

You are right, but here is a rephrased version of the argument Hondo was making.  It is true that the Celtics are averaging within 3 points of their home scoring average on the road (though both are down quite a bit from the regular season). 

However, you have to *expect* teams will score more at home in the playoffs.  This means if you want to win on the road in the playoffs, you  have to be able to score MORE than you normally would score.

I agree teams should score a little more at home.

3-6 points a game.




Celtics are allowing roughly 25 more a game on the road. 


3-6 points a game, Celtics would not have lost a game yet in this playoffs with the offense they have been playing.

[Who]

Celtics are allowing roughly 25 more a game on the road. 

That 25 points isn't just about the defense, it's about offense too because their offensive struggles are leading to better opportunties.

And it's a skewed (thanks Redz! I'll learn some words one of these days!) stat

The two teams we've played play much better at home than on the road

• Atlanta were 25-16 at home and a dismal 12-29 on the road
• Cleveland was a very solid 27-14 at home and a poor 18-23

These are two teams that play much better basketball at home and struggle on the road. i believe that 25 point gap has more to do with them than Boston.

There's also problems with the small sample size where things like this happens: Cleveland's supporting cast got hot and made a lot of jump shots in game three. They hadn't done that once. They were due. The Celtics were giving up shots like that in earlier games but players like Delonte were missing them. Now they hit them so Cleveland score more despite the game plan defensively working well on James. Could a few of those have been snuffed out? Sure but they were going to score considerably more regardless.

............

There's a lot of virtue to the idea of "a strong offense is the best defense"

The Celtics misfiring offense allowed Atlanta to run at them. It allowed Cleveland to get into their offense earlier with LeBron dribbling the ball for 10 seconds at the top of the key setting up their offense. Their offensive struggles have limited the number of possessions where the Celtics get to set up their half court D which in turn limits the effectiveness of their defense and allows the opposition to get easier baskets. More baskets = more confidence, especially for shooters.

They've also played un-intelligently offensively on the road. Players like Paul Pierce are getting less shots on the road. Ray is getting more shots but scoring less per shot because they're bad shots. Same with Rondo (1.34pps versus .78pps on the road). Perk is getting less easy shots at the rim on the road because the ball movement isn't working (5.3 shots at 67% versus 3.8 shots at 47%). Less easy shots = more misses = less runs, more scoring droughts = more opportunities for the opposition to take advantage.

The offense has been very poor on the road and it's causing more problems for the defense. The misfiring offense is a huge part of their defensive issues.

Players play better D when they're scoring too. They're also less vulnerable to runs by the opposition when they get a basket to stop the bleeding.

Play better offense and a lot of, not all, the defensive issues will go away.

[Redz]

Celtics are allowing roughly 25 more a game on the road. 

That 25 points isn't just about the defense, it's about offense too because their offensive struggles are leading to better opportunties.

And it's a skewered stat

Who, I'm not one to pick on an occasional typo or misused word, but I'm kind of punchy at the end of a long weekend and this one just struck me funny.

This is "skewered"


This is "skewed"



I know you know...I just had this visual of a bar graph with a sword through it.  Anyhow...Off to bed on that note.  Not picking on you.

[QuinielaBox]

According to Gorman on CSL, the Celtics had a nasty practice today to get the feeling back. So I think they will play much better on Monday. But they won't win if Rondo's struggles continue.

[jay_jay54]

According to Gorman on CSL, the Celtics had a nasty practice today to get the feeling back. So I think they will play much better on Monday. But they won't win if Rondo's struggles continue.

Glad to here about the hard practice,and you are right about Rondo.

[greendownunder]

I have a good feeling about this next game against the Cavs.

Just remember, they (Cavs) shot the lights out (especially early on), and from then we were playing catch-up. Very hard to do on the road.

Somewhere there will have to be a statement road game.

This better be it!

[wdleehi]

Celtics are allowing roughly 25 more a game on the road. 

That 25 points isn't just about the defense, it's about offense too because their offensive struggles are leading to better opportunties.

And it's a skewed (thanks Redz! I'll learn some words one of these days!) stat

The two teams we've played play much better at home than on the road

• Atlanta were 25-16 at home and a dismal 12-29 on the road
• Cleveland was a very solid 27-14 at home and a poor 18-23

These are two teams that play much better basketball at home and struggle on the road. i believe that 25 point gap has more to do with them than Boston.

There's also problems with the small sample size where things like this happens: Cleveland's supporting cast got hot and made a lot of jump shots in game three. They hadn't done that once. They were due. The Celtics were giving up shots like that in earlier games but players like Delonte were missing them. Now they hit them so Cleveland score more despite the game plan defensively working well on James. Could a few of those have been snuffed out? Sure but they were going to score considerably more regardless.

............

There's a lot of virtue to the idea of "a strong offense is the best defense"

The Celtics misfiring offense allowed Atlanta to run at them. It allowed Cleveland to get into their offense earlier with LeBron dribbling the ball for 10 seconds at the top of the key setting up their offense. Their offensive struggles have limited the number of possessions where the Celtics get to set up their half court D which in turn limits the effectiveness of their defense and allows the opposition to get easier baskets. More baskets = more confidence, especially for shooters.

They've also played un-intelligently offensively on the road. Players like Paul Pierce are getting less shots on the road. Ray is getting more shots but scoring less per shot because they're bad shots. Same with Rondo (1.34pps versus .78pps on the road). Perk is getting less easy shots at the rim on the road because the ball movement isn't working (5.3 shots at 67% versus 3.8 shots at 47%). Less easy shots = more misses = less runs, more scoring droughts = more opportunities for the opposition to take advantage.

The offense has been very poor on the road and it's causing more problems for the defense. The misfiring offense is a huge part of their defensive issues.

Players play better D when they're scoring too. They're also less vulnerable to runs by the opposition when they get a basket to stop the bleeding.

Play better offense and a lot of, not all, the defensive issues will go away.

Most teams are better at home. 


Most team will score more points at home.


But it is not a 25 point swing we have seen from the Celtics opponents. 


Play the defense this team plays at home, and the offensive problems (which existed at home in this series) become less important. 


edit:  and it is not like the offense is scoring 10-20 points less on the road.  more like 3-5 points.  I don't see how that leads to 25 more points for the other team.

[Who]

edit:  and it is not like the offense is scoring 10-20 points less on the road.  more like 3-5 points.  I don't see how that leads to 25 more points for the other team.

Because it's not a zero sum game.

It matters how the offense is being run. It matters how they're getting their shots. It matters where those shots are being taken from and who is taking the shots. This all effects the type of defense the Celtics get to play, how much half court defense vs transition defense. Whether the ball takes 5 seconds for the first pass (like it has on the road) or 10 seconds for them to start their offense (like it has at home).

[clover]

I thought it interesting that in one of the Globe pieces today, Rondo said how he had to start the game more aggressively in transition, but that it was really from better defense that they'd get to start the transition break. 

Doc specifically made the same point about Ray:

"...we can't let Wally get going. Everything we live through is on the defensive end and the offense will come."

But in a long quote Ray really puts the emphasis on the reverse, saying in effect they need to play better O and it's from there that the D comes. I'm not sure that's what I wanted to hear from Ray.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/05/12/rondo_allen_eye_fresh_starts/

[Yakmanev]

I thought it interesting that in one of the Globe pieces today, Rondo said how he had to start the game more aggressively in transition, but that it was really from better defense that they'd get to start the transition break. 

Doc specifically made the same point about Ray:

"...we can't let Wally get going. Everything we live through is on the defensive end and the offense will come."

But in a long quote Ray really puts the emphasis on the reverse, saying in effect they need to play better O and it's from there that the D comes. I'm not sure that's what I wanted to hear from Ray.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/05/12/rondo_allen_eye_fresh_starts/

Yeah I see where your coming from but Ray Allen has always been an offensive specialist. It's only natural he would feel that way and for him it might actually be the truth.

When Ray Allen's shot is on you can tell he is more active on the defensive end. When his shot is off we don't hear much from him.

[clover]

And when/if his shot is off yet again?  If that's the case for Ray it's got to be mental more than anything, which I would say means it's something he should correct--no matter how aged he is.  I think that really was Doc's point when he said he didn't worry about Ray's offense, that sooner or later his shots would go--but that Wally just had to be covered.

Pierce is an example of a guy who is strong offensively, but when his shot is off he seems to make an extra effort on rebounding, defense, assists, etc., he doesn't kill his team on a bad shooting night.