Woj: Jrue Extends with Celtics (4 Years, $135M)

[Moranis]

That is a terrible contract for C's

Ok, let's hear your take.... Is it because he's old, not good, going to get hurt, and could prevent them from signing a better player?

It is way too much and way too many years.  Holiday is in his 15th season this year.  You can count on 1 hand the number of players that perform at even a reasonably high level that deep into their careers and just because we've seen 3 of them recently (i.e. Lebron, Paul, and Durant this year) doesn't make it the norm.  The salary structure even with him off the books was tenuous going forward with Tatum and Brown both on supermax deals and Porzingis still under contract.  You then have White that needs to be re-signed.  Even with the cap going up, it is a ton of money to spend on your 5th most important player that will be in years 16, 17, 18, and 19 during the life of the extension.  Holiday isn't going to be able to play PG at a high level much longer and he isn't big enough or a consistent enough shooter to play off the ball.  He has already lost a couple of steps defensively as well (he is still very good, but not elite, and he isn't going to magically get better, only worse).

In 25-26, Tatum, Brown, Jrue, and KP are going to make over 110% of the cap (around 175 million).  White is presumably going to get something in the same range as Jrue and KP, which adds another 30 million or so (20% or so of cap).  So 205 million or 130% of the cap from just 5 people.  Pritchard is another 7.2 million or 4.5% and is the only other guaranteed contract that season (Horford and Hauser are free agents before that year as well). 

And Jrue's contract won't be easy to trade because of his age, his diminishing production, and his overall skill set so the team is stuck with him, which means it likely isn't signing White or is trading Brown.  The team just isn't financially feasible at those dollars.  This is a move that gives good vibes to the team right now, but is a horrid contract going forward.  It is basically indefensible.

It’s neither horrid nor indefensible.  It’s certainly tradable in 3 seasons when it’s expiring, even if his play has deteriorated, and also tradable over the next two seasons if he continues to play well.  The % of cap hit would be down considerably in 2027-28 compared to 2023-24.  Keeping the core intact through 2026-27 makes sense if it’s possible.  The  hardest part of building a perennial contender is assembling and maintaining a balanced, high level, starting five.  The easier part is then developing young contributors, adding inexpensive banner-seeking vets, and using the exceptions to round out the roster.

Part of the argument has to be, if you aren’t going to pay Jrue, who do you have instead? You aren’t opening cap space for free agency by losing Jrue, so you’d be looking to trade him at less than 100 cents on the dollar if he opts in, and risk losing him outright if he doesn’t.

he is expiring 4 seasons from now in year 19. And yeah there is probably value as an expiring contract, but that also means you have to acquire players making over 30 million to do so and that doesn't alleviate the salary issues.  And none of that matters if you lose White, Porzingis, or have to trade Brown because the finances are too great.  Jrue isn't worth 30 million right now, let alone as a deteriorating player well past his prime.  4 years at that money will be crippling. It is far too much money and to many years.

How do you reconcile this with the take that Wyc should have taken on Duncan Robinson's contract with the TPE?  Isn't the analysis you're making now similar to the one that Brad made then?

I do agree that you don't make this deal unless you're committed to paying the cost to keep the top-five together.  Resigning Jrue and then letting White walk would be stupid.

the roster and financial constraints aren't the same in the future as they were then and neither is DRob's cost. Robinson's contract has an early termination for 25/26, but even you kept him his salary is under 20 million.  He quite possibly will be a better player than Jrue then and makes less, and is expiring. 

I would have let Jrue pick up his option and play out next year on that. If he opted out this summer, I'd have offered him 3 years at like 80 to 90 million as I don't think he'd have done better than that on the open market.  I'd have probably gone up to 100 million in match type scenario, but more dollars or years than that is just too much.

[Vermont Green]

Not sure what to make of this deal. Saves money next season and the cap keeps going up. My biggest concern is how redundant White and Holiday are. If we end with Tatum, Brown, White, and Holiday all on big contracts, how do we pay for bigs not named Porzingis.  Trade a guard at some point?  Hope we get lucky in the draft?

Not sure if we need expensive bigs not named Porzingis. With these expensive guards and wings, I think we can win with affordable backup bigs.

We are already thin. Horford a year closer to retirement next season. Our only options will be rookies and min contracts. The Kornets and Tillmans of the world. We may be OK with that next season but this is a looming issue. The solution of course is to trade one of the guards for some big depth.

The only way that any second apron team is going to be able to add players is via trade or the draft.  Since we won't be able to aggregate salaries in trade, utilize trade exceptions, or take back more salary than we send out, I suppose it makes sense to have larger contracts on the books.

As for redundancy, it depends on the skill set you're talking about.  In the case of White and Jrue, that's "great defender, good passer, can play with or without the ball, good outside shooter, great teammate".  I don't think that's a bad problem to have.

Having two similar players that are both good is not the problem. The problem is the lack of big depth. I don’t have a problem with signing Jrue. He is a good player. Trading $30M+ players is not easy but possible when they are good.  White still might get silly money as a UFA if he chooses not to extend. So we could lose him and then we will all be real glad we have Jrue. 

[Roy H.]

Not sure what to make of this deal. Saves money next season and the cap keeps going up. My biggest concern is how redundant White and Holiday are. If we end with Tatum, Brown, White, and Holiday all on big contracts, how do we pay for bigs not named Porzingis.  Trade a guard at some point?  Hope we get lucky in the draft?

Not sure if we need expensive bigs not named Porzingis. With these expensive guards and wings, I think we can win with affordable backup bigs.

We are already thin. Horford a year closer to retirement next season. Our only options will be rookies and min contracts. The Kornets and Tillmans of the world. We may be OK with that next season but this is a looming issue. The solution of course is to trade one of the guards for some big depth.

The only way that any second apron team is going to be able to add players is via trade or the draft.  Since we won't be able to aggregate salaries in trade, utilize trade exceptions, or take back more salary than we send out, I suppose it makes sense to have larger contracts on the books.

As for redundancy, it depends on the skill set you're talking about.  In the case of White and Jrue, that's "great defender, good passer, can play with or without the ball, good outside shooter, great teammate".  I don't think that's a bad problem to have.

Having two similar players that are both good is not the problem. The problem is the lack of big depth. I don’t have a problem with signing Jrue. He is a good player. Trading $30M+ players is not easy but possible when they are good.  White still might get silly money as a UFA if he chooses not to extend. So we could lose him and then we will all be real glad we have Jrue.

Let's say we weren't paying Jrue big money.  What would be the alternate plan to sign another big?  Even if we let him walk, the most we'd have to sign somebody is the Taxpayer MLE.

I think fans need to embrace the idea that Tatum is a PF, and that he and KP are our starting bigs for the foreseeable future.  Depth will have to come from vet minimums, draft picks and minor trades.

[Phantom255x]

The one thing is that the C's seem to have a pretty solid bench going forward. Pritchard, Kornet, Tillman, Springer, Queta. To me, Hauser might end up being a casualty with all this assuming we obviously keep White. I could see some team giving Hauser a sizable 2nd tier contract similar to G-Will last offseason. It's also possible 1 of Tillman/Kornet is also a casualty, but that won't be something to worry about until after 2025 probably since some of these guys are still signed for 2025.

I think Stevens is banking on guys like Springer, Queta, Tillman, etc. to grow + improve and turn into solid role players behind our starting 5 (and also once Horford retires in probably 2-3 years)

[keevsnick]

The bottom line is the new CBA makes keeping together an NBA team of 5 guys making 30+ (and two making 50+) borderline impossible. Could Wyc pay the massive tax? Sure, but it would be the largest ever paid for an NBA team. And that's before you consider the ramifications of having your draft pick frozen and sent to the end of the first round SEVEN YEARS after you are over the 2nd apron.

I think the bottom line is this: They have this year, and next year. If they win one of those years and make a deep run the next it will be hard to break the team up. A title probably buys them another year or two, even with a huge tax, because its hard to justify breaking up a title winner. But if they don't win the team will undergo some changes.

I don't automatically assume that's trading Brown, becasue a lot depends on HOW the actual games go down. Could be him, could be Holiday getting dumped, or KP maybe just becasue he doesn't stay healthy.

One thing that would help: Nailing your draft picks. Getting someone who can be a rotation guy going forward is crucial. Because Pritchard may get moved to cut cost this summer, AL and Sam both have just 1 year left as well. Walsh being a real rotation guy in the next two years would also help. We've all cheered these drfat pick trades, they've been worth it, but the c's need cheep talent now. 

[gift]

The bottom line is the new CBA makes keeping together an NBA team of 5 guys making 30+ (and two making 50+) borderline impossible. Could Wyc pay the massive tax? Sure, but it would be the largest ever paid for an NBA team. And that's before you consider the ramifications of having your draft pick frozen and sent to the end of the first round SEVEN YEARS after you are over the 2nd apron.

I think the bottom line is this: They have this year, and next year. If they win one of those years and make a deep run the next it will be hard to break the team up. A title probably buys them another year or two, even with a huge tax, because its hard to justify breaking up a title winner. But if they don't win the team will undergo some changes.

I don't automatically assume that's trading Brown, becasue a lot depends on HOW the actual games go down. Could be him, could be Holiday getting dumped, or KP maybe just becasue he doesn't stay healthy.

One thing that would help: Nailing your draft picks. Getting someone who can be a rotation guy going forward is crucial. Because Pritchard may get moved to cut cost this summer, AL and Sam both have just 1 year left as well. Walsh being a real rotation guy in the next two years would also help. We've all cheered these drfat pick trades, they've been worth it, but the c's need cheep talent now.

this team now has its window. get 1 or maybe 2. urgency unlike any since KG and Pierce now required.

[keevsnick]

Looking at the math it seems like the C's will be over the 2nd apron next year by almost exactly the amount Payton Pritchard makes. It seems highly likely he'll be traded this summer and that the c's will make some minor roster moved to get under that apron, no sense getting your draft pick frozen year earlier than you have to.

[ozgod]

Not sure what to make of this deal. Saves money next season and the cap keeps going up. My biggest concern is how redundant White and Holiday are. If we end with Tatum, Brown, White, and Holiday all on big contracts, how do we pay for bigs not named Porzingis.  Trade a guard at some point?  Hope we get lucky in the draft?

Not sure if we need expensive bigs not named Porzingis. With these expensive guards and wings, I think we can win with affordable backup bigs.

We are already thin. Horford a year closer to retirement next season. Our only options will be rookies and min contracts. The Kornets and Tillmans of the world. We may be OK with that next season but this is a looming issue. The solution of course is to trade one of the guards for some big depth.

The only way that any second apron team is going to be able to add players is via trade or the draft.  Since we won't be able to aggregate salaries in trade, utilize trade exceptions, or take back more salary than we send out, I suppose it makes sense to have larger contracts on the books.

As for redundancy, it depends on the skill set you're talking about.  In the case of White and Jrue, that's "great defender, good passer, can play with or without the ball, good outside shooter, great teammate".  I don't think that's a bad problem to have.

Having two similar players that are both good is not the problem. The problem is the lack of big depth. I don’t have a problem with signing Jrue. He is a good player. Trading $30M+ players is not easy but possible when they are good.  White still might get silly money as a UFA if he chooses not to extend. So we could lose him and then we will all be real glad we have Jrue.

Let's say we weren't paying Jrue big money.  What would be the alternate plan to sign another big?  Even if we let him walk, the most we'd have to sign somebody is the Taxpayer MLE.

I think fans need to embrace the idea that Tatum is a PF, and that he and KP are our starting bigs for the foreseeable future.  Depth will have to come from vet minimums, draft picks and minor trades.

It’s kind of like the Jaylen situation…Brad saw two alternatives: pay Jrue what it would take to keep control of him or have him walk in a year and be unable to replace him because we would still be over the cap and probably the 2nd apron. It’s an overpay but Brad probably feels it’s still a fungible contract even a couple of years into the future. The key will be the timing of when we would pass that control onto someone else.

Also I think people are all assuming White will re sign with us…I don’t think Brad can make that assumption at this point.

[Vermont Green]

Not sure what to make of this deal. Saves money next season and the cap keeps going up. My biggest concern is how redundant White and Holiday are. If we end with Tatum, Brown, White, and Holiday all on big contracts, how do we pay for bigs not named Porzingis.  Trade a guard at some point?  Hope we get lucky in the draft?

Not sure if we need expensive bigs not named Porzingis. With these expensive guards and wings, I think we can win with affordable backup bigs.

We are already thin. Horford a year closer to retirement next season. Our only options will be rookies and min contracts. The Kornets and Tillmans of the world. We may be OK with that next season but this is a looming issue. The solution of course is to trade one of the guards for some big depth.

The only way that any second apron team is going to be able to add players is via trade or the draft.  Since we won't be able to aggregate salaries in trade, utilize trade exceptions, or take back more salary than we send out, I suppose it makes sense to have larger contracts on the books.

As for redundancy, it depends on the skill set you're talking about.  In the case of White and Jrue, that's "great defender, good passer, can play with or without the ball, good outside shooter, great teammate".  I don't think that's a bad problem to have.

Having two similar players that are both good is not the problem. The problem is the lack of big depth. I don’t have a problem with signing Jrue. He is a good player. Trading $30M+ players is not easy but possible when they are good.  White still might get silly money as a UFA if he chooses not to extend. So we could lose him and then we will all be real glad we have Jrue.

Let's say we weren't paying Jrue big money.  What would be the alternate plan to sign another big?  Even if we let him walk, the most we'd have to sign somebody is the Taxpayer MLE.

I think fans need to embrace the idea that Tatum is a PF, and that he and KP are our starting bigs for the foreseeable future.  Depth will have to come from vet minimums, draft picks and minor trades.

I don't think we are disagreeing on this.  I understand why they extended Holiday.  But we are going to have to address the PF/C depth and that is probably going to mean trading one of these guards (assuming we are able to extend White too).  The Celtics aren't worrying about that right now and maybe they won't next season either.  But you saw vs MIL the other night how this team is going to look when Horford retires and Porzingis is injured or on the bench.

Tatum is not a PF.  We are choosing to play with one big and an extra guard.  Or extra wing, depending on how you want to look at it.  Which is different.  Maybe that is the way the Celtics will choose to play in the future.  But even with that, we are razor thin for depth at PF and C.  We have Horford and Porzingis who can be in the playoff rotation.  I doubt we see either Kornet or Tillman in the playoffs.

Holiday, White, and Brown may all be "tradeable contracts" one of which is used to obtain a big in the future.  Or maybe we get lucky in the draft or otherwise.

[Silas]

Marc D'Amico
@Marc_DAmico
Jrue on Mazzulla: "Joe has definitely grown my game, grown kind've my vision and perspective of basketball, where every year I do plan to grow, but I think (him) being able to give me a different responsibility to look at the game differently - especially with the players and the people that we have - I've never been on a team like this."

[Redz]

Marc D'Amico
@Marc_DAmico
Jrue on Mazzulla: "Joe has definitely grown my game, grown kind've my vision and perspective of basketball, where every year I do plan to grow, but I think (him) being able to give me a different responsibility to look at the game differently - especially with the players and the people that we have - I've never been on a team like this."

Well that's nice to hear

[Vermont Green]

Bobby Manning: Holiday: “It was an ongoing conversation. I thought (the deal) was pretty easy. Mutually, we came to an agreement and felt like this was best not only for me, but for the team. I just hope it works. I want to be here. I want to win multiple rings.”

Holiday: "Since I got here and the situation how I got here, it's only been love. So the city of Boston, not only them, but the organization made it super easy for us to navigate and get through a time that was a bit stressful."

[jambr380]

The fact is, we couldn't take the chance of just losing Jrue for nothing this summer. We gave up our two best 1sts, Rob, and the 6moty last year. Yes, Rob and Brogdon have been injured, but they were still decent assets when we traded them. A team like Philly or ORL could have decided to throw big money at Jrue.

The contract is too much, but I also don't think we'll see the end of it. We traded an injured unplayable Kemba with two years left on his max contract and a 1st for a valuable player in Al. While that 1st ended up being Sengun, there's no guarantee that we would have taken him. If we hold on to our 1sts, we will be able to trade Jrue - not only to get off of his contract, but for actual decent players.

[Phantom255x]

4/135M is a lot but in today's NBA that will become a bargain in a few years. Horford is gonna retire probably in the next 2-3 years. I do think with a core of Tatum-Brown-Porzingis-White-Holiday locked up for at least the next 3+ years, we'll remain contenders for a while. Tatum is still just 26 and Jaylen 27. Porzingis also 28. I still think Holiday has at least 3 more great seasons left in the league and being a 4th or 5th option will help him too.

[Donoghus]

Championships come with a price.

If the Celtics win a couple of championships, I think you'd be hard-pressed to moan & complain about the contract situations