Author Topic: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown  (Read 3605 times)

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Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« on: April 11, 2010, 01:25:38 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Well, who does Brown think he is, resting Lebron and Shaq, starting role players and bench players to get them tuned up for a playoff run. In case they are needed, in CASE of what...injuries....foul trouble...oh come on...THAT never happens. I tis the right thing to do, something that the celtics should have tried back before this struggle. When it was obvious that some players HAD to sit to rest and fix an injury,,,,that was OBVIOUS but they wouldn't admit it, or do it for the team......they just tried to play through it...it was selfish, self centered and didn't help our team at all.!! I know fully well we are fighting for position right now, unlike Cleve....but for Brown to do it.....it maybe sets a new standard for coaching behavior...or just illustrates an old idea that some aren't afraid to employ. What has Tommy H been   saying all along..?

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 02:20:26 PM »

Offline LB3533

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Brown only rested Lebron once the Cavs won homecourt throughout the playoffs. Shaq is injured so he is not really being rested.

Doc can't rest all his guys cause the C's can still win the 3 spot in the East.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 02:27:33 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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This post need to be looked at as a micro vs macro view....like what we could have done earlier in the year, or around January, coaching philosophy...

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 02:32:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Doc did sit KG for a week longer than KG wanted to sit. I do agree that Pierce should have taken longer to recover from his knee/foot situations, but the team was playing poorly at that juncture. Its very difficult to rest a key player extra time in that situation.

The Cavs haven't rested anyone until everything has been wrapped up for the most part. So looking "macro" instead of "micro" I don't see a whole lot of difference between Doc and Mike Brown.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 03:00:38 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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varajo was out until he was healed, West was out until he.....healed.....Heck Z was gone for a month  (almost planned). Not resting PP did nothing more than ruin chemistry, when you are a team mate and you watch a guy who cannot do anything, but wants to play, even though he is not able physically, wants the ball, will not give it up, while you and others are able...and constantly playing ensures the injury will take even longer to heal. KG, almost the same...you don't want to sit them, but it is for the greater good, especially 3 months before the playoffs.and that is why you play the other guys, to keep them ready for action, not stone cold and disgruntled (making them sit while the STAR limps around, bad offense, no D ) Just because it is the platoffs doesn't mean a team star won't get hurt..then what would you do, uhm, play a guy you never played all year, and you never played him with the STARS...gee, that wasn't supposed to happen...why does America keep training the military even if there isn't a war....you got to be ready, keep your team tuned and ready heck, we could have played all diff combo's or just so called bench players against NY, NJ, Wash.....what would have been diff there...? You would have given your subs, good tuning...and the pros didn't want to play those days anyways...give 'em what they want then....some people ask for it verbally, some show you in other ways,..gotta pay attention..!

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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varajo was out until he was healed, West was out until he.....healed.....Heck Z was gone for a month  (almost planned).
All of our guys were out comparable periods with their relative injuries. You're also talking about two young players with more minor injuries. KG/Pierce had more serious injuries and are older, not surprising they had more difficulty coming back.

Furthermore you haven't demonstrated any difference between Doc and Mike Brown. The only difference is that the Cavs are younger and playing better than the C's. If you think Doc should try and get better players, I'm all for it...

Not resting PP did nothing more than ruin chemistry, when you are a team mate and you watch a guy who cannot do anything, but wants to play, even though he is not able physically, wants the ball, will not give it up, while you and others are able...and constantly playing ensures the injury will take even longer to heal. KG, almost the same...you don't want to sit them, but it is for the greater good, especially 3 months before the playoffs.
As I said they rested KG for a good two weeks longer than he wanted to be out. KG needs to play to get more strength and agility in his legs. Resting him more wasn't going to help especially after so many weeks off after his two consecutive injuries. Pierce absolutely should have taken longer to come back. He's said so himself, but again you have to remember the C's were struggling at that point. Its a lot easier to monday morning quarterback it after the path taken didn't work out. The team was struggling, Pierce wanted to play they made a choice.


and that is why you play the other guys, to keep them ready for action, not stone cold and disgruntled (making them sit while the STAR limps around, bad offense, no D ) Just because it is the platoffs doesn't mean a team star won't get hurt..then what would you do, uhm, play a guy you never played all year, and you never played him with the STARS...gee, that wasn't supposed to happen
The bench has played, they've played a lot. The starters haven't played more than their normal minutes, and the rest of the team had their chances. Most of them aren't playing all that well.

...why does America keep training the military even if there isn't a war....you got to be ready, keep your team tuned and ready heck, we could have played all diff combo's or just so called bench players against NY, NJ, Wash.....what would have been diff there...? You would have given your subs, good tuning...and the pros didn't want to play those days anyways...give 'em what they want then....some people ask for it verbally, some show you in other ways,..gotta pay attention..!
I'm not sure what you mean by the military comment. Everyone on the team practices, works out, and plays. They are all professional basketball players.

The team needs rhythm and to get on a role. Benching the first team won't help anyone in the playoffs. The reserves and the starters need to get used to playing with the same units Doc will use in the playoffs.

You want the team to play better, but blindly demanding to bench the starters isn't going to help. Sometimes the urge to mix things up is just destructive, especially when you're dealing with prideful professional athletes.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 04:37:44 PM »

Offline housecall

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The difference i see in team play is from the games Lebron has sat out this season the cavs lost every game whereas Celtics have won games without Paul or KG at any given time.It tells me that the cavs are a lot less of a top team without (1)single player.Its eyeopening to me that a team is that much dependent on (1) player to succeed.If Lebron goes down for a game or two in the playoffs,there chances of winning is a lot less likely than the Celtics if they are without 1 major player.(imo)

« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 05:47:33 PM by housecall »

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 06:03:21 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Well, all i hear is that everyone wants to keep it the same, no matter what we aren't getting. So, there it is. But, practice has very little to do with being game ready, you are game ready by playing...often. You can learn, in practice, a defense rotation, a called play..things like that...as far as game time, you are only ready for game time by playing often. You'll never get your hands, your timing, your shot, your shot blocking ability, or your rebounding from practice, and that IS A FACT. So, the Celts are what they are then at this point. I am obviously frustrated with them....hard to understand this years team, players and coaching...i have watched doc every year he has been here and never really liked anything he did, and he did not magically bring us a championship, it would have been magic if he did it before the big 3, if you saw what was going on beofre the big 3...it was just Paul ball, give the ball to pp, and watch.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 06:21:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You can learn, in practice, a defense rotation, a called play..things like that...as far as game time, you are only ready for game time by playing often. You'll never get your hands, your timing, your shot, your shot blocking ability, or your rebounding from practice, and that IS A FACT.

Actually that is about as far away from being a fact as there can be.

Meadowlark, your ideas are those of a player or someone that hasn't had a really good coach coach you in an upper level of organized sports. Your concepts couldn't be more far from the truth in most team sports like basketball, football, soccer, and hockey. I've played 3 organized sports at the high school level and one at the college level and coached for about a decade at the 12-15 year old inter city competitive level. What you are saying is just NOT a fact.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 06:35:04 PM »

Offline boston.balla

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Doc did exactly the same 2 years ago - the Big 3 sat out for the majority of the last week games.

Funnily enough, he was widely criticized for that during the series vs. Atlanta and Cleveland.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 07:27:38 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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You can learn, in practice, a defense rotation, a called play..things like that...as far as game time, you are only ready for game time by playing often. You'll never get your hands, your timing, your shot, your shot blocking ability, or your rebounding from practice, and that IS A FACT.

Actually that is about as far away from being a fact as there can be.

Meadowlark, your ideas are those of a player or someone that hasn't had a really good coach coach you in an upper level of organized sports. Your concepts couldn't be more far from the truth in most team sports like basketball, football, soccer, and hockey. I've played 3 organized sports at the high school level and one at the college level and coached for about a decade at the 12-15 year old inter city competitive level. What you are saying is just NOT a fact.

Look dude, i have had enough of your know it all attitude, again, really post, agree or disagree, but learn how to do it without focusing on a person, can you do that....because my posts are not directed to you, they aren't about you, and i don't care to have conversations with you further..get it. all players can shoot in PRACTICE, things can work in practice....the game is different, a lot faster, except for maybe your bush league, i don't know, in factg i don't want to know. consider that i am posting in general, like most people here, it has nothing to do with you....imagine that. Now it is true, my posts maybe not fact...to some, some may be more my experience, things i see my way...and posted in hopes for a better celtics team...what actually is your point......if you want to keep coming at me,..I am easy to find.  For example you can IM me or use the other message thing here, whatever it is called. Otherwise, we'll just assume here on out that we don't agree, and then we don't have to carry on this way further. It is your behavior that keep people from wanting to visit these blogs, they want to talk and post, not be hasseled about everything they post, it is basketball talk, bar talk, talk to people as if they were sitting next to you in a bar.

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 07:33:43 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Keep it civil.  Anyone else makes a personal attack, they then have to deal with the consequences of their actions with the forum staff.  This is the only warning.   wdleehi

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 07:36:17 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Funny comparison since I have a low opinion of Brown as a coach. 

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2010, 09:20:35 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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I had to think about what i said earlier, and realize that maybe all my post was just my opinion, and my experience, and it doesn't apply to everyone else, or maybe anyone else...i guess they call that tunnel vision. Just all in all, take my posts as a concerned true Celtic fan...who only knows so much. I have been here (as a fan) since way before Acie Earl wanted to train at home instead of the C's summer camp....LOL. I guess since the 80's....this is my disclaimer..!

Re: Doc philosophy vs Cleve coach Brown
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2010, 11:44:40 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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All I am doing is disagreeing with you Meadowlark, don't take it so personally. If you disagree with me, explain why it is a fact. Give proof. Back up your statement.

If you come on a blog and say this should happen and that should be tried and this is the ONLY way things work, expect people to disagree with you. Expect them to tell you why, expect to defend your point(especially if you state something is a FACT).

In too separate threads you professed this theory that Doc wasn't doing something and that he should be. You stated your reasons. I and others have disagreed with you and even provided proof to back up our points. If you are then going to push aside our proof that you are mistaken and then say, and I am paraphrasing, "Players only get better and learn stuff when in games and that's a FACT." you need to be prepared to hear that you might be wrong.

We all start playing young in school yards and courts in the neighborhoods. We all learn the basics by ourselves. But when you first join an organized team they start teaching you the proper shooting technique, how to box out, how to throw a proper chest pass or bounce pass, how to take a layup properly with each hand, how to dribble around a defender, how to dribble without looking at the ball, etc. Basic stuff.

Then as the level of competition changes as you get older you learn what zone defenses are, how to proper run certain offenses and plays, how to defend the pick and roll properly, how to set a proper pick, how to catch and shoot, how to put back an offensive rebound properly, how to run a fast break, how to space yourself on the fast break.

Then in practices you put to use the knowledge gained by scrimmaging and constant repetition of running your plays. New sets are installed as older ones are perfected. Then, eventually the games come and you put to use all that knowledge by playing the game.

But coaches teach in practice in training camp and players learn and get better there. Coaches then evaluate set positions and name starters and role players. If players can't perform in game conditions then they are demoted and others promoted. Minutes are increased and decreased accordingly.

But ultimately players learn in practice and off the court and have to perform on the court in games. The only way you get better by playing more is through familiarity with what you are running, familiarity with the players you are playing with and learning to have the confidence to properly use what you have been taught.

You actually get better through practice. You show you've gotten better by playing in games. Coaches then evaluate and decide who works best with whom and when and utilizes those players to best interest of the team.

But playing players that aren't as good as other players just to get them to learn in a game isn't how it is done. Those players are not playing for a reason. That reason is because through hours and hours of practice and drills and scrimmages and in the case of high level college ball and the pros, through testing, they have shown they just aren't as good as the players in front of them. No amount of playing in games is going to make them better. It's just going to make them more familiar with what they have to do in game conditions.

My proof of all this is that coaches at the pro level just don't do things your way. They do it this way. They do it the way Doc and Mike Brown and almost every other coach does it.

Anyway, that's my explanation, long winded as it may be, for why I think what you are suggesting is wrong. Disagree with me, that's cool. Tell me why and give me your explanations and reasons and proof.

This isn't personal Meadowlark, it's just me not agreeing with you.