Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals

[cordobes]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

[winsomme]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

but sometimes it does happen playing at the NBA level. for instance, getting playing time for the Cs would focus his game more than playing in the NBDL where he is more wide open with his game.

what they would probably have done is give him things to do in games that he is good at (like rebounding and getting up quickly in the transition game) and then in practice worked him really hard on his outside shooting (like they've been doing with Baby and Rondo).

so he'd be contributing and honing at the same time. also he'd getting ahead in his learning of the defensive system that we use.

I know you don't agree that these things would happen, but i don't see how you think it is completely unreasonable to think that they could have...

[xmuscularghandix]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

i think you just nailed it on the head, he needs to know what kind of player he's trying to be. and i'll take it further, the Celtics want to see him play down there before THEY decide what kindof player he should be. becuase on any given night he's shown excellent passing, shooting, rebounding, defensive skills. but he's not going to be out there in green trying to do it all, so where can he focus his short minutes and have the most affect?

[winsomme]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

i think you just nailed it on the head, he needs to know what kind of player he's trying to be. and i'll take it further, the Celtics want to see him play down there before THEY decide what kindof player he should be. becuase on any given night he's shown excellent passing, shooting, rebounding, defensive skills. but he's not going to be out there in green trying to do it all, so where can he focus his short minutes and have the most affect?

here's the problem, though...

the question isn't should he have played NBA minutes this season. it's COULD he have played NBA minutes this year....

[cordobes]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

i think you just nailed it on the head, he needs to know what kind of player he's trying to be. and i'll take it further, the Celtics want to see him play down there before THEY decide what kindof player he should be. becuase on any given night he's shown excellent passing, shooting, rebounding, defensive skills. but he's not going to be out there in green trying to do it all, so where can he focus his short minutes and have the most affect?

here's the problem, though...

the question isn't should he have played NBA minutes this season. it's COULD he have played NBA minutes this year....

Ah, all right. But in that case, there are hundreds of basketball players who could have played NBA minutes this year. I'd say that about 1/3 of the D-Leaguers wouldn't look worse than Walker in a NBA game.

[winsomme]

okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

i think you just nailed it on the head, he needs to know what kind of player he's trying to be. and i'll take it further, the Celtics want to see him play down there before THEY decide what kindof player he should be. becuase on any given night he's shown excellent passing, shooting, rebounding, defensive skills. but he's not going to be out there in green trying to do it all, so where can he focus his short minutes and have the most affect?

here's the problem, though...

the question isn't should he have played NBA minutes this season. it's COULD he have played NBA minutes this year....

Ah, all right. But in that case, there are hundreds of basketball players who could have played NBA minutes this year. I'd say that about 1/3 of the D-Leaguers wouldn't look worse than Walker in a NBA game.

I disagree with your numbers of how many wouldn't look worse, but more importantly, even if those number were accurate to start with, I think the raw skills and potential JR has would put the distance between him and the rest of the field as the season and PT commenced and JR improved...

[bucknersrevenge]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

A wing player who can't dribble or shoot, has bad-decision making skills and is a willing but flawed defender? Which current NBA player with a similar skill-level and quality to Giddens is actually able to contribute at the NBA level? I mean there are always guys like DeMarcus Nelson and similar scrubs. Giddens is at their level.

but this is the problem with the debate, right?

you think that the debate is a "settled", whereas others disagree...

as we know, BFB scouts players and just a couple of pages ago asserted that while he agrees there are deficiencies in JRs game, he thinks he could contribute in a positive way at the NBA level. I tend to agree.

not saying for sure that he is right, but it's certainly not a settled topic.

JR can score, he's really good in transition, rebounds, has some nice defensive skills and is super athletic. It's certainly possible that with solid playing time this year he could have demonstrated the ability to play at this level.

I think Anthony Randolph is a good example of a raw player that, when given PT, showed the ability to contribute at the NBA level...

Contribute like Courtney Lee, Bill Walker or DeMarcus Nelson?

Courtney Lee did not contribute as much earlier in the season until Mickael Pietrus who was the starting guard got injured and when Lee first begun starting he was a disaster area. His mental approach, confidence and overall game grew as a result of more time and experience. Not to mention there are no HOF swingment to battle for minutes in Orlando.

Mbah a Moute gets burn on a bad Milwaukee team. He's a decent player who while showing he was likely going to be the best wing defender on that Milwaukee team that was more of an indictment of Milwaukee's roster than real praise for a 2nd rnd pick.

As for Bill Walker, I'm not sure how you cite what he's done thus far as a "contribution". Walker outside of a few highlight-reel dunks has been galactically bad. Missing rotations, turning the ball over, and fouling seemingly at a rate that makes Mikki Moore look good. But again, with experience I think Walker can prove to be a fine player.

Giddens really isn't any different. It's true that not every player benefits from simply being thrown out on the court but JR has enough strengths in his game to make you believe that He could handle small spurts of solid play and eventually become much like BBD has, a player that has earned consistent minutes and produce. In fact playing with the starters has completely sped up the learning curve for Baby.

After next year House could be gone, TA will likely be gone(if not sooner) and Ray Allen might not be resigned or if so possibly to a backup role. Giddens is DEFINITELY gonna get his chance to show that he belongs here before then. IMO there's no way this kid doesn't make it. He has too much going in his favor

[cordobes]

As for Bill Walker, I'm not sure how you cite what he's done thus far as a "contribution". Walker outside of a few highlight-reel dunks has been galactically bad. Missing rotations, turning the ball over, and fouling seemingly at a rate that makes Mikki Moore look good.

That's precisely why I cited him.

[BASS_THUMPER]

who is Giddens?

[cordobes]

I disagree with your numbers of how many wouldn't look worse, but more importantly, even if those number were accurate to start with, I think the raw skills and potential JR has would put the distance between him and the rest of the field as the season and PT commenced and JR improved...

Okay, you liked what Walker showed more than I did. Anyway, I just want to note that the "potential" and "he'd improve" talk is another whole different issue.

The argument was about how Giddens would contribute with his current skill-set.

[winsomme]

I disagree with your numbers of how many wouldn't look worse, but more importantly, even if those number were accurate to start with, I think the raw skills and potential JR has would put the distance between him and the rest of the field as the season and PT commenced and JR improved...

Okay, you liked what Walker showed more than I did. Anyway, I just want to note that the "potential" and "he'd improve" talk is another whole different issue.

The argument was about how Giddens would contribute with his current skill-set.

okay, that's fair, but even Lee didn't contribute very much early on in the season...

[xmuscularghandix]

my "futurecast" isn't working, is anyone else having problems?

[bucknersrevenge]

As for Bill Walker, I'm not sure how you cite what he's done thus far as a "contribution". Walker outside of a few highlight-reel dunks has been galactically bad. Missing rotations, turning the ball over, and fouling seemingly at a rate that makes Mikki Moore look good.

That's precisely why I cited him.

And I agree with that. However, I think Walker's game is far more raw than Giddens. Right now Walker contributes raw size at the 3. JR's game is far more versatile even in the places it needs refinement. On our team, experience is a HUGE factor in playing time unless Doc's hand is forced by injury. If Pollard wasn't injured all of last year guaranteed we wouldn't have even seen Davis last year, and not much of Powe at all. And after Brown was added despite his ineffectiveness he played. You don't seem to see it for some reason but context plays a HUGE role in what Courtney Lee is doing right now compared to what JR is doing. Courtney's offensive game is good now but JR's game is more versatile and defensively he projects to be much better. Unfortunately I have to use the word "projects" because Doc didn't want to give the kid the chance to learn on the fly in the regular season like Van Gundy did with Lee.

[bucknersrevenge]

this is point is basically the crux of my problem with this topic.

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

add together the things that JR does well with things that he could potentially get good at with PT and i don't see  (even if you disagree with the conclusion) how you can argue that you have to be an unreasonable observer to maintain that JR could contribute at the NBA level.

reasonable people disagree all the time. you don't have to be right to be reasonable... especially on something that is speculative.

Because he would be an offensive liability (finishing on transition and some cuts to the basket are nice but you need more from a perimeter player in the NBA, especially one who can't shoot or make FTs) and his defence lacks a good amount of polishing to be a factor.

I mean, maybe he's as ready as Bill Walker. But would you consider Bill Walker NBA ready?

You just described Rajon Rondo in his rookie year.

[cordobes]

this is point is basically the crux of my problem with this topic.

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

add together the things that JR does well with things that he could potentially get good at with PT and i don't see  (even if you disagree with the conclusion) how you can argue that you have to be an unreasonable observer to maintain that JR could contribute at the NBA level.

reasonable people disagree all the time. you don't have to be right to be reasonable... especially on something that is speculative.

Because he would be an offensive liability (finishing on transition and some cuts to the basket are nice but you need more from a perimeter player in the NBA, especially one who can't shoot or make FTs) and his defence lacks a good amount of polishing to be a factor.

I mean, maybe he's as ready as Bill Walker. But would you consider Bill Walker NBA ready?

You just described Rajon Rondo in his rookie year.

Except that Giddens is a terrible on-the-ball guard and Rondo wasn't. Besides that, Rondo's defence as a rookie was much better than Giddens'.