Author Topic: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals  (Read 82983 times)

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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #285 on: April 24, 2009, 09:43:20 PM »

Offline cordobes

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You don't seem to see it for some reason but context plays a HUGE role in what Courtney Lee is doing right now compared to what JR is doing.

Oh, I see that. You can find quotes from me saying that the fate of a large part of the rookies depends more on the situation they land in, the context, than on what they can control.

On the other hand, I also understand that some players are better than others. Especially from a fundamentals perspective - some guys can execute flawlessly, others have yet to be taught.

Gidddens has a more versatile offensive game? Why? Because he can't do anything at a very high level? And Giddens projects to be a much better defender than Lee? How exactly do you rate Lee's defence? 

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #286 on: April 24, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Walker is more ready than Giddens, and even if you consider them equal Walker is automatically better anyways becuase his FT shooting and he's younger.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #287 on: April 24, 2009, 09:45:49 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Rondo's defense in his rookie year was on a 20 win team, mistakes didn't matter, he had no expectations. Rookie giddens could be twice as good defensively as rookie Rondo and it still wouldn't be good enough to play on this team.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #288 on: April 24, 2009, 09:56:15 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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this is point is basically the crux of my problem with this topic.



I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.


add together the things that JR does well with things that he could potentially get good at with PT and i don't see  (even if you disagree with the conclusion) how you can argue that you have to be an unreasonable observer to maintain that JR could contribute at the NBA level.

reasonable people disagree all the time. you don't have to be right to be reasonable... especially on something that is speculative.

Because he would be an offensive liability (finishing on transition and some cuts to the basket are nice but you need more from a perimeter player in the NBA, especially one who can't shoot or make FTs) and his defence lacks a good amount of polishing to be a factor.

I mean, maybe he's as ready as Bill Walker. But would you consider Bill Walker NBA ready?

You just described Rajon Rondo in his rookie year.

Except that Giddens is a terrible on-the-ball guard and Rondo wasn't. Besides that, Rondo's defence as a rookie was much better than Giddens'.

You're misremembering. Rajon was/is a gambler who know understands team defense better than he did his rookie season, though rookie PGs still light him up when he reaches.
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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #289 on: April 24, 2009, 09:59:30 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Walker is more ready than Giddens, and even if you consider them equal Walker is automatically better anyways becuase his FT shooting and he's younger.

I don't understand this statement at all. This screams of I love Walker's vicious dunks more.
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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #290 on: April 26, 2009, 01:04:34 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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I love Walker's vicious dunks.
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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #291 on: April 26, 2009, 11:07:38 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

I can see that perspective - but you  also have to understand that some people are very good at learning by studying film and having things explained to them while others are more adept at learning by doing.

I think Giddens is someone who needs to make mistakes in action and have them corrected, which is why TC and pre-season will be big for him.

I don't think this team could afford to teach him like that, but I do believe on a lesser team such as Memphis he would have grown alot by being a part of the mix, having reviews of his on-court performance with the coaching staff, and going through practices with a defined role.

The D-League has allowed him to play a role comparable to his college role - he needs extended time being pushed into his projected NBA role IMO - the role you are talking about.

Not everyone is cut out to just watch and learn and JR is a very hyper, hands-on type person. It is probably much easier for him to learn by trial and error.

Whether or not the team can afford to do this is another thing, but if JR is smart he'll stay at the Waltham facility all summer and play pick-up games with high-level NBA types so he can grow.

This off-season and upcoming TC/pre will be very important for his long-term future.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #292 on: April 26, 2009, 11:14:19 AM »

Offline Chief

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okay, but how quickly that potential could be tapped into is part of the debate here.

speaking for myself, I think with playing time this year, he could have already demonstrated that potential at the NBA level.

Why?

I don't. I think he needs a coaching camp way more than playing time. But first of all he needs to know what type of player he's trying to be. If it's the kind of player I think he should be, then he needs to develop his shooting and defensive fundamentals - and competing in NBA games wouldn't help him a lot there.

I can see that perspective - but you  also have to understand that some people are very good at learning by studying film and having things explained to them while others are more adept at learning by doing.

I think Giddens is someone who needs to make mistakes in action and have them corrected, which is why TC and pre-season will be big for him.

I don't think this team could afford to teach him like that, but I do believe on a lesser team such as Memphis he would have grown alot by being a part of the mix, having reviews of his on-court performance with the coaching staff, and going through practices with a defined role.

The D-League has allowed him to play a role comparable to his college role - he needs extended time being pushed into his projected NBA role IMO - the role you are talking about.

Not everyone is cut out to just watch and learn and JR is a very hyper, hands-on type person. It is probably much easier for him to learn by trial and error.

Whether or not the team can afford to do this is another thing, but if JR is smart he'll stay at the Waltham facility all summer and play pick-up games with high-level NBA types so he can grow.

This off-season and upcoming TC/pre will be very important for his long-term future.

TP. I 100% agree.
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Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #293 on: April 26, 2009, 11:24:24 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Even Michael Jordan was flawed. What's your point?

my point is that Giddens is also good but flawed....but didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate and build on on his game in the way that Lee and Mbah did.

There are thousands of players who are good but flawed. What exactly separates Giddens from them?

What I'm saying is that Courtney Lee is a much better player than Giddens - one is ready to be a solid NBA role-player, the other has to improve in order to reach that level. That shouldn't be a surprise. Btw, about how many starters from playoff teams you believe that they wouldn't get decent minutes if they were in the Boston roster ? There are 75 guys or so in those conditions.

I disagree very strongly with the theory that getting playing time is always good for the development of a player. Each case is a case. Some players can benefit from not playing at a higher level.

I guess the question is "how settled" the debate is over the "readiness" of Giddens...

your position seems to be that it is completely settled because if he were ready, he would have played.

Completely wrong. Read my posts.

I say he isn't ready because I watch him playing - and I've detailed the flaws I see in his game. He didn't play much because he isn't ready.

So far the only argument in favour of the thesis that he's ready is "Ainge said he was NBA ready defensively".

Quote
I mean, you brought up Charlie Bell and Pietrus. are you suggesting that the fact they didn't play much means that they aren't able to contribute at the NBA level?

Huh? But they are contributing at the NBA level: they both averaged 25 mpg and started more than 20 games for their teams.

No, the things you pointed out are accurate, but the level to which they balance out against his strengths is your opinion - you keep stating the existence of those flaws as "proof" he is not ready to play NBA minutes period, but that is a massive jump in speculation.

Giddens is not Lee or Mbah Moute - but there are plenty of examples of players who appeared less polished but had great physical tools and figured it out on the fly when put on teams that afforded them the ability to work through errors.

This debate comes down to opinion, not fact. Giddens has plus physical attributes and some solid performance ability in certain areas of his game. Would he be inconsistent? Certainly - but I believe he does enough things well on an NBA court to keep himself on an NBA court in the right situation and grow into a more defined role that accentuates his strengths.

He has a long way to go, but if he had been on the Clippers or Memphis for instance, I believe he would be further along as a player now by learning on the job - the down side to that is sometimes playing through errors prolongs some of the negative habits as well.

Overall though, I think Giddens would be held in higher regard as a prospect if he had been on an NBA court all year somewhere...you disagree, but its your opinion, not fact.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #294 on: April 26, 2009, 11:52:07 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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I'm still struggling to understand why is Giddens head and his mental inability to deal with the NBA game causing him to attempt to block shots with the wrong hand or to stare at the ball when guarding cuts or to bite fakes by taking his eyes off the opponent belly during D-League games. It's really weird.

Anyway, you're surely entitled to have an opinion, but you either agree with what the flaws are or you actually believe that his defence is NBA ready from a fundamentals perspective.

And everybody agrees that the mental part of the game is very important.

I'm talking about mental mistakes.  No, maturity alone isn't going to correct his shotblocking mechanics or his ballwatching tendencies.  But players whose minds aren't in the game make more mistakes.  If you're thinking about the thousands of fans around you or the fact that you can't feel your legs and not about the man who'd like nothing better than to score in your face, then you're not going to play good defense.

Again.  I believe that his defense would be passable, although flawed, in the NBA right now - there are many players in the league who demonstrate the defensive flaws you've mentioned.  A player doesn't have to play fundamentally perfect defense to make a defensive impact on the game.  At the same time, I don't believe that his mental focus is adequate at this point for him to play as well as he is capable of playing.  



As an extension of that - Cordobes, you  keep pointing to the errors he makes fundamentally, but nothing in regards to the volume of those erroneous plays relative to the quality plays he makes in the same situations.

You've watched as much D-League footage as anyone if its been 6-7 games, we're all fairly limited to the same sample size. Don't know how much you watched him last year in NM, but I'll assume you did a bit as well.

But within those sample of games he is making all these fundemental errors, he's also made a good many off and on-ball defensive plays as well as making some very good offensive reads playmaking for himself and others.

Now the ratio may not be acceptable by your standards for getting on an NBA court, but the fact that he does make positive plays in his weaker fundamental areas is exactly what makes me believe that getting in an NBA system and having a clear-cut role established for him would enable to increase the ratio of good plays to bad - this is fairly common in player development with all players who are open to coaching and put the time in to improve on their weaknesses.

JR also has a few solid off/def tendencies that would be IDed on an NBA level and applied to his tutelage/usage in an NBA system.

-down screens for FT line extended catch-and-shoot/one-dribble, slash

- off-ball cuts and put-backs

- set 3-point shooting on kick-outs

He needs a lot of time but is substantially better than his 28% overall percentage with feet set and time to shoot - 35% is not adequate for it being a primary shot, but combined with his mid-range catch-and-shoot/slash game it is a decent complementary option to supplement.

He isn't a good enough ball-handler to run pick-and-role with or to put in ISO and I don't expect him to ever be - but shot-fakes on set shots even out to 3-point range, where he can get by a recovering primary defender, put him in space and he is good at getting to the basket or reading the double and finding the open man - he forces some lower percentage passes sometimes, but he makes some very, very good reads at others.

Defensively, he is a capable man defender at times, but does not pay attention to opponents strengths and definitely gets caught daydreaming enough to cause him problems - the focus issues are going to be a major obstacle for him, but as he learns his opponents tendencies he should improve tremendously by simply denying their primary drive side, eliminating separation spacing for shooters, and using his length to challenge pull ups or soft drives that he can shadow.

Off-ball he is great at picking up steals, ala Larry Hughes back in the day - doesn't make him a good defender as he has to know when to range off his assignment or risk getting burned - but its a good thing to have this anticipation ability. He  needs to learn when to do it.

When I look at everything he does well and everything he does not do well, most of his flaws in terms of judgement can be improved by being coached to play a certain way in order to fit his skills into a specific role.

Boston had JR's role filled by Tony Allen - someone who is light years ahead in both knowlege of the system and overall experience. But, on another team, Giddens may have had a unique skillset in this regard.

His shooting must improve, but his shot-selection brings down his numbers overall. His actual spot-shooting, catch-and-shoot off screen, and pull-up aren't bad - much better than TA and reliable enough to set up his slashing game.

Picking spots is about learning where those spots are and getting repetition in - The D-League isn't doing this for him to the extent that an NBA team narrowing his focus down to 2-3 specific things would do.

You put him on the court, pump him up and gain his peak attentiveness by keeping him involved, and then break down film with him, get on the practice court and walk-through his spots and reads, and establish goals --- that's how you grow JR Giddens as a player IMO.

He will never learn as quickly without that specific guidance - playing an all-around game as he did in Utah will grow his overall ability, but its too broad in focus to quickly improve the specific skills he would need for a set role on Boston's team.

So, again - summer/TC/Pre will determine his progress on the Celtics as that will be the time he'll have the most exposure to the Celtics system, the most court time, and the most coaching...

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #295 on: April 26, 2009, 11:58:01 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Are you really arguing that Giddens could play in the GSW system? With his outside shooting? Who was the last guard who was successful there without being able to shoot the ball? Seriously, I'd really like to know the answer to this.

Funny thing is that I've always liked Giddens more than most and my post was generally complimentary of him. However, the homerism in this boards is just too much. Everything less than "oh, he's just as good as Orlando starting SG, he just didn't have the chance to prove it because our bench is so superior to the Magic's one..." is considered hate. It's truly mind-boggling.

Who's the strawman now?

Most of this thread is NOT stating outlandish or overboard projections for JR - the core of this thread is about whether or not JR Giddens could play positive NBA minutes with enough volume to be a contributor to an NBA rotation while growing as a player in the process.

A 20 page thread is going to get a few off-base comments, such as anything relating Courtney Lee to Giddens in terms of NBA readiness or situation.

Don't think there's been much homerism overall - just a difference in opinion about where Giddens is as a prospect.

Re: Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals
« Reply #296 on: April 26, 2009, 12:21:47 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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As for Bill Walker, I'm not sure how you cite what he's done thus far as a "contribution". Walker outside of a few highlight-reel dunks has been galactically bad. Missing rotations, turning the ball over, and fouling seemingly at a rate that makes Mikki Moore look good.

That's precisely why I cited him.

And I agree with that. However, I think Walker's game is far more raw than Giddens. Right now Walker contributes raw size at the 3. JR's game is far more versatile even in the places it needs refinement. On our team, experience is a HUGE factor in playing time unless Doc's hand is forced by injury. If Pollard wasn't injured all of last year guaranteed we wouldn't have even seen Davis last year, and not much of Powe at all. And after Brown was added despite his ineffectiveness he played. You don't seem to see it for some reason but context plays a HUGE role in what Courtney Lee is doing right now compared to what JR is doing. Courtney's offensive game is good now but JR's game is more versatile and defensively he projects to be much better. Unfortunately I have to use the word "projects" because Doc didn't want to give the kid the chance to learn on the fly in the regular season like Van Gundy did with Lee.

Courtney Lee won't pick up blocks and rebounds like Giddens, but he is going to be a very stout defender in the NBA and his offensive game is pretty versatile - set shooting, pull-up, slash, floaters, etc...

I would take Courtney Lee over JR Giddens in a heartbeat - the things that Giddens has better upside in are not substantial enough to off-set Lee's more reliable projected development and the gap between the two as players if they both peaked at max potential is not that wide in terms of overall impact.