Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals

[Atzar]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

A wing player who can't dribble or shoot, has bad-decision making skills and is a willing but flawed defender? Which current NBA player with a similar skill-level and quality to Giddens is actually able to contribute at the NBA level? I mean there are always guys like DeMarcus Nelson and similar scrubs. Giddens is at their level.

We have one on our team, his name is Tony Allen.

You really need to see Giddens playing.

My bad, I read your post wrong - I thought you were just asking for players with the general skillset of flawed but potent defense, poor ballhandling and shooting and questionable decision-making.  Giddens isn't on their level, that's certainly true.

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

Thank you and TP.  You managed to sum up in a sentence what I failed to explain in several paragraphs. 

Really? I thought you disagreed with my stance that Giddens defensive game is flawed from a fundamentals perspective, that he has to work hard on it and that he's not ready to play NBA defence - you even said you believe his defence was NBA ready in spite of not watching him playing.

Nice to see you agreeing with my assessment now though.

And I think I spent most of my text in this thread simply stating that I'd rather take Danny's analysis over yours, and that the mental side of the game is an important aspect for every player.  I never said that Giddens' defense wasn't flawed, I just believe that he has the physical ability to play with the Celtics right now and play reasonably effective one-on-one defense.  However, I don't think his head is in the right place for him to do this if he gets jelly-legged when Doc puts him on the court. 

[The Walker Wiggle]

Yes, I've watched the last 3 games.

I've written here that Giddens is an excellent rebounder for his position.

No, rebounding ability isn't a skill as important for a guard as it is for a big man. Do you disagree? If not, what's exactly your point?

Good try.  Go back and read my post again, if you don't understand my point. (It's kind of obvious  ). Otherwise, what is your point? Or the point of a "what's your point?" response. Also, rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man? Huh? Do you want to make any other obvious observations?  Outside shooting is more important for a two guard than a center, therefore cordobes hates Mehmet Okur. 

Has anybody mentioned that Giddens passes the ball as well as any two guard out of this years' draft? Better than O.J. Mayo. Better than Courtney Lee. Also better than T.A. 

[cordobes]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

Thank you and TP.  You managed to sum up in a sentence what I failed to explain in several paragraphs. 

Really? I thought you disagreed with my stance that Giddens defensive game is flawed from a fundamentals perspective, that he has to work hard on it and that he's not ready to play NBA defence - you even said you believe his defence was NBA ready in spite of not watching him playing.

Nice to see you agreeing with my assessment now though.

And I think I spent most of my text in this thread simply stating that I'd rather take Danny's analysis over yours, and that the mental side of the game is an important aspect for every player.  I never said that Giddens' defense wasn't flawed, I just believe that he has the physical ability to play with the Celtics right now and play reasonably effective one-on-one defense.  However, I don't think his head is in the right place for him to do this if he gets jelly-legged when Doc puts him on the court. 
[/quote]

I'm still struggling to understand why is Giddens head and his mental inability to deal with the NBA game causing him to attempt to block shots with the wrong hand or to stare at the ball when guarding cuts or to bite fakes by taking his eyes off the opponent belly during D-League games. It's really weird.

Anyway, you're surely entitled to have an opinion, but you either agree with what the flaws are or you actually believe that his defence is NBA ready from a fundamentals perspective.

And everybody agrees that the mental part of the game is very important.

[xmuscularghandix]

Yes, I've watched the last 3 games.

I've written here that Giddens is an excellent rebounder for his position.

No, rebounding ability isn't a skill as important for a guard as it is for a big man. Do you disagree? If not, what's exactly your point?

Good try.  Go back and read my post again, if you don't understand my point. (It's kind of obvious  ). Otherwise, what is your point? Or the point of a "what's your point?" response. Also, rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man? Huh? Do you want to make any other obvious observations?  Outside shooting is more important for a two guard than a center, therefore cordobes hates Mehmet Okur. 

Has anybody mentioned that Giddens passes the ball as well as any two guard out of this years' draft? Better than O.J. Mayo. Better than Courtney Lee. Also better than T.A. 

i think i've mentioned that at some point, but the average NBA fan is clueless about a player until they've played for 2 years in the league, or have started from the get go. Just becuase a kid isn't playing doesn't mean he sucks, it just means he needs to develop before they can count on him.

[cordobes]

Yes, I've watched the last 3 games.

I've written here that Giddens is an excellent rebounder for his position.

No, rebounding ability isn't a skill as important for a guard as it is for a big man. Do you disagree? If not, what's exactly your point?

Good try.  Go back and read my post again, if you don't understand my point. (It's kind of obvious  ). Otherwise, what is your point? Or the point of a "what's your point?" response. Also, rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man? Huh? Do you want to make any other obvious observations?  Outside shooting is more important for a two guard than a center, therefore cordobes hates Mehmet Okur. 

You're confusing things. I've said that his rebounding ability was a factor, a positive point for him and a "nice skill to have". I don't see it as a negative or as a completely immaterial factor.

I don't hate Giddens or Okur, why would I?

If it's obvious that rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man, what's exactly your disagreement with me? That's exactly what I've said. A good skill to have, just not as important as others.

Nice to see we actually agree, TP for a good debate.

[winsomme]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

A wing player who can't dribble or shoot, has bad-decision making skills and is a willing but flawed defender? Which current NBA player with a similar skill-level and quality to Giddens is actually able to contribute at the NBA level? I mean there are always guys like DeMarcus Nelson and similar scrubs. Giddens is at their level.

but this is the problem with the debate, right?

you think that the debate is a "settled", whereas others disagree...

as we know, BFB scouts players and just a couple of pages ago asserted that while he agrees there are deficiencies in JRs game, he thinks he could contribute in a positive way at the NBA level. I tend to agree.

not saying for sure that he is right, but it's certainly not a settled topic.

JR can score, he's really good in transition, rebounds, has some nice defensive skills and is super athletic. It's certainly possible that with solid playing time this year he could have demonstrated the ability to play at this level.

I think Anthony Randolph is a good example of a raw player that, when given PT, showed the ability to contribute at the NBA level...

[Atzar]

I'm still struggling to understand why is Giddens head and his mental inability to deal with the NBA game causing him to attempt to block shots with the wrong hand or to stare at the ball when guarding cuts or to bite fakes by taking his eyes off the opponent belly during D-League games. It's really weird.

Anyway, you're surely entitled to have an opinion, but you either agree with what the flaws are or you actually believe that his defence is NBA ready from a fundamentals perspective.

And everybody agrees that the mental part of the game is very important.

I'm talking about mental mistakes.  No, maturity alone isn't going to correct his shotblocking mechanics or his ballwatching tendencies.  But players whose minds aren't in the game make more mistakes.  If you're thinking about the thousands of fans around you or the fact that you can't feel your legs and not about the man who'd like nothing better than to score in your face, then you're not going to play good defense.

Again.  I believe that his defense would be passable, although flawed, in the NBA right now - there are many players in the league who demonstrate the defensive flaws you've mentioned.  A player doesn't have to play fundamentally perfect defense to make a defensive impact on the game.  At the same time, I don't believe that his mental focus is adequate at this point for him to play as well as he is capable of playing.  

[winsomme]

Yes, I've watched the last 3 games.

I've written here that Giddens is an excellent rebounder for his position.

No, rebounding ability isn't a skill as important for a guard as it is for a big man. Do you disagree? If not, what's exactly your point?

Good try.  Go back and read my post again, if you don't understand my point. (It's kind of obvious  ). Otherwise, what is your point? Or the point of a "what's your point?" response. Also, rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man? Huh? Do you want to make any other obvious observations?  Outside shooting is more important for a two guard than a center, therefore cordobes hates Mehmet Okur. 

You're confusing things. I've said that his rebounding ability was a factor, a positive point for him and a "nice skill to have". I don't see it as a negative or as a completely immaterial factor.

I don't hate Giddens or Okur, why would I?

If it's obvious that rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man, what's exactly your disagreement with me? That's exactly what I've said. A good skill to have, just not as important as others.

Nice to see we actually agree, TP for a good debate.

why does rebounding have to be as important a skill for a guard as a big man?

they were just talking about how CHI has to keep Rondo off the boards....when a guard rebounds well, it has a positive impact...

[cordobes]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

A wing player who can't dribble or shoot, has bad-decision making skills and is a willing but flawed defender? Which current NBA player with a similar skill-level and quality to Giddens is actually able to contribute at the NBA level? I mean there are always guys like DeMarcus Nelson and similar scrubs. Giddens is at their level.

but this is the problem with the debate, right?

you think that the debate is a "settled", whereas others disagree...

as we know, BFB scouts players and just a couple of pages ago asserted that while he agrees there are deficiencies in JRs game, he thinks he could contribute in a positive way at the NBA level. I tend to agree.

not saying for sure that he is right, but it's certainly not a settled topic.

JR can score, he's really good in transition, rebounds, has some nice defensive skills and is super athletic. It's certainly possible that with solid playing time this year he could have demonstrated the ability to play at this level.

I think Anthony Randolph is a good example of a raw player that, when given PT, showed the ability to contribute at the NBA level...

Contribute like Courtney Lee, Bill Walker or DeMarcus Nelson?

[The Walker Wiggle]

You're confusing things. I've said that his rebounding ability was a factor, a positive point for him and a "nice skill to have". I don't see it as a negative or as a completely immaterial factor.

I don't hate Giddens or Okur, why would I?

If it's obvious that rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man, what's exactly your disagreement with me? That's exactly what I've said. A good skill to have, just not as important as others.

Nice to see we actually agree, TP for a good debate.

Glad you were willing to admit you were wrong regarding Rondo and Gidden's and both players ability to impact the game with their rebounding. Assuming that's what you are doing now? (No wonder I'm a little confused. Ha ha!) Although your not "completely immaterial" line still strikes me as [dang]ing with faint praise. Right? Unless I am missing your point or you don't really have one with that line? Would you elaborate more, please?

Obviously you don't hate Okur. JK.

[cordobes]

why does rebounding have to be as important a skill for a guard as a big man?

It doesn't and I've never said so. I don't have the time and the patience to keep answering to strawman arguments.

[winsomme]

why does rebounding have to be as important a skill for a guard as a big man?

It doesn't and I've never said so. I don't have the time and the patience to keep answering to strawman arguments.

so why did you make the point that rebounding is not as important for a guard as a big man?

[cordobes]

You're confusing things. I've said that his rebounding ability was a factor, a positive point for him and a "nice skill to have". I don't see it as a negative or as a completely immaterial factor.

I don't hate Giddens or Okur, why would I?

If it's obvious that rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man, what's exactly your disagreement with me? That's exactly what I've said. A good skill to have, just not as important as others.

Nice to see we actually agree, TP for a good debate.

Glad you were willing to admit you were wrong regarding Rondo and Gidden's and both players ability to impact the game with their rebounding. Assuming that's what you are doing now? (No wonder I'm a little confused. Ha ha!) Although your not "completely immaterial" line still strikes me as [dang]ing with faint praise. Right? Unless I am missing your point or you don't really have one with that line? Would you elaborate more, please?

I was wrong?

I've said 2 things about this issue:

1 - Giddens is an excellent rebounder for his position, that's a nice skill to have and worthy of note (that's why I stressed it in the OP). You seem to agree.

2 - Rebounding isn't as important a skill for a guard as a big man. You labelled this observation (originally made by Budweiser Celtic) as obvious (and it is), so I guess you also agree with it.

So, where exactly was/am I wrong?

[cordobes]

why does rebounding have to be as important a skill for a guard as a big man?

It doesn't and I've never said so. I don't have the time and the patience to keep answering to strawman arguments.

so why did you make the point that rebounding is not as important for a guard as a big man?

Let's see..... because it isn't? Can it be? I just said, and I quote myself "Yeah, of course the rebounding prowess is a positive for him, but it's not like it's something he can rely on, as he was a PF". Some guy thought I was saying Giddens plays at the 4 and Budweiser Celtic explained "That's not what he meant. He's saying that his rebounding skills would be something to rely on if he were a PF, but since he is a guard, it won't as big of a factor." Clarified? 

Now, may I ask you a question? Why have you suggested I said that rebounding has to be such as important of a skill for a guard as a big man?

[winsomme]

again, like you said, all players have flaws. the debate is whether those flaws mean that he is not NBA ready or able to contribute at the NBA level, not whether or not people disagree with what the flaws are...

I find extremely difficult to believe any reasonable observer would simultaneously agree with the flaws I've described on Giddens game and that he's ready to play in the NBA.

A wing player who can't dribble or shoot, has bad-decision making skills and is a willing but flawed defender? Which current NBA player with a similar skill-level and quality to Giddens is actually able to contribute at the NBA level? I mean there are always guys like DeMarcus Nelson and similar scrubs. Giddens is at their level.

but this is the problem with the debate, right?

you think that the debate is a "settled", whereas others disagree...

as we know, BFB scouts players and just a couple of pages ago asserted that while he agrees there are deficiencies in JRs game, he thinks he could contribute in a positive way at the NBA level. I tend to agree.

not saying for sure that he is right, but it's certainly not a settled topic.

JR can score, he's really good in transition, rebounds, has some nice defensive skills and is super athletic. It's certainly possible that with solid playing time this year he could have demonstrated the ability to play at this level.

I think Anthony Randolph is a good example of a raw player that, when given PT, showed the ability to contribute at the NBA level...

Contribute like Courtney Lee, Bill Walker or DeMarcus Nelson?

why are those the choices? what about Randolph or Batum?

I could definitely see JR putting up some nice stats on GS with their transition game...also could see Walker doing the same out there.