Author Topic: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?  (Read 3388 times)

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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2019, 01:49:31 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/26077193/nba-best-25-25-new-next-superstar-rankings

Can anyone post some of the content, either stuff about the Celtics or whatever you can?  This is behind the ESPN Insider paywall.
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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2019, 01:53:07 PM »

Offline footey

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball. 

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 01:53:56 PM »

Offline footey

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Per ESPN:

Which young NBA stars are taking over, and which teams have the best collections of young talent in the league?

Chris Herring, Bobby Marks and Kevin Pelton rank their top 25 players under age 25 based on future potential, including Giannis Antetokounmpo, Ben Simmons, Luka Doncic, Jayson Tatum, Joel Embiid and more rising stars.

Note: Each writer's individual rankings are listed at the bottom of this story. These rankings are an average of those ballots. You can find the 2018 version of these rankings here.



1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
Milwaukee Bucks
Forward
Age: 24.2

Any debate over the top spot ended when Anthony Davis turned 25 just after our last edition. That leaves Giannis, one of the leading contenders for MVP with his Bucks on track to post the NBA's best record, as an easy choice.

As if Antetokounmpo getting to the rim for a league-leading 4.2 dunks per game (per Basketball-Reference.com) wasn't scary enough, he has recently started making 3-pointers. After shooting 13 percent beyond the arc before the new year, Giannis is hitting 36 percent in 2019. If Antetokounmpo keeps that up, prayer may be the only defense for him. -- Pelton


2. Joel Embiid
Philadelphia 76ers
Center
Age: 24.9

When healthy, Embiid is a dominant presence on both ends of the court. Besides averaging 27 points and 11 rebounds per game this season, Embiid ranks first in defensive rebounds, second in free throws made and attempted, and seventh in blocks.

If there is a concern, it's about how his heavier workload impacts his health. Not only is he playing more games, but his minutes per game have increased from 25.4 to 30.4 and now 33.7. He is currently sidelined with right-knee soreness and has dealt with back tightness this season. -- Marks


3. Nikola Jokic
Denver Nuggets
Center
Age: 24.0

Denver's franchise center already has shown to be one of the best passing big men -- if not the best -- of all time. But Jokic also is averaging 20 PPG for the first time in his career. He'll never be the most nimble player on the defense, but his smarts and the team's small strategic tweaks this season to play him farther up on screen-and-rolls have helped him immensely.

If and when his perimeter shooting numbers rebound to normal levels, he could easily find himself in future MVP conversations. -- Herring


4. Karl-Anthony Towns
Minnesota Timberwolves
Center
Age: 23.3

Since struggling in October (19 PPG, 10.6 RPG and 43.8 percent shooting) with the franchise mired in controversy, Towns has put together an All-NBA-type season. From November forward, he has played closer to the level that made him a third-team All-NBA choice last season, averaging 23.8 PPG and 12.3 RPG (including 3.4 offensive rebounds) and shooting 52 percent from the field. Towns is also one of the most durable players in the NBA, having played 82 games in three consecutive seasons before being sidelined recently with a concussion.

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His weaknesses are getting to the line (only 5.4 free throw attempts per game) and at the other end. Towns currently ranks No. 87 among all players with a defensive real-plus minus (RPM) of 1.28.

Towns could benefit financially from Anthony Davis' reduced playing time in New Orleans. Currently signed to a five-year, $158 million contract, Towns will see that number increase to $189 million if he earns any All-NBA spot this season. -- Marks


5. Ben Simmons
Philadelphia 76ers
Guard
Age: 22.7

The youngest player in this season's All-Star Game, Simmons has quickly established himself as one of the league's most versatile contributors as a 6-foot-10 point guard.

There's no question Simmons will be a star for seasons to come, but whether he can reach superstardom may depend on his ability to develop a jump shot. Per NBA.com, Simmons has made just 10 shots all season outside the paint after hitting 30 as a rookie. To keep defenses honest and be a threat without the ball in his hands, Simmons must improve his volume and accuracy. -- Pelton


6. Luka Doncic
Dallas Mavericks
Guard/forward
Age: 19.9

Given his precocious performance and the relative value of big men and perimeter players, I think there's a strong case that only Giannis has a higher ceiling than Doncic, who needed less than half a season to erase any doubts that his European production would translate to the NBA.

At age 19 (he'll turn 20 Thursday), Doncic is one of just six rookies since the ABA-NBA merger with a usage rate of 29 percent or higher. Yet he has remained reasonably efficient thanks to high-volume 3-point shooting. As Doncic improves his physique and skills, All-Star production seems like a floor. -- Pelton


7. Donovan Mitchell
Utah Jazz
Guard
Age: 22.5

The Jazz might have gotten a glimpse of the future when Mitchell took over point guard duties after injuries to Ricky Rubio and Dante Exum.

From Jan. 9-18, Mitchell averaged 30 points and 5.7 assists per game, shot 51.2 percent from the field, including 40.5 percent from 3, and had a usage rate of 32.5. The Jazz also went 6-0 with Mitchell playing PG. -- Marks


8. Jayson Tatum
Boston Celtics
Forward
Age: 20.9

Expectations for Tatum probably got a bit too high after his strong rookie season and in particular during the Celtics' playoff run. He was 24th in ESPN's preseason NBArank, ahead of six players chosen 2019 All-Stars.

Although Tatum is scoring more in Year 2, his efficiency is down in a season that has been perceived as disappointing. Taking a step back, Tatum won't turn 21 until next week and is still the second option on one of the league's best teams. As he improves his shot selection and learns to manage high expectations, Tatum's future is bright. -- Pelton


9. De'Aaron Fox
Sacramento Kings
Guard
Age: 21.2

The fastest riser on the list, Fox didn't receive a single vote for last year's list in the midst of a rookie season that saw him rank outside the NBA's top 500 in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM). Adding a consistent 3-point shot (he's making 37 percent from downtown after hitting just 30 percent as a rookie) has transformed Fox's game.

He's a leading contender for Most Improved Player and still just scratching the surface of his talent as he continues to master the pick-and-roll game in half-court offense. -- Pelton


10. Devin Booker
Phoenix Suns
Guard
Age: 22.3

It is déjà vu all over again for Booker. The Suns are headed to the lottery and Booker is on pace to average about 25 points per game. Sound familiar?

The lack of team success was evident when the All-Stars were selected this year. Of the players in the top 15 in PPG, Booker was the lone player not to be selected for a spot in Charlotte.

One concern is the impact that losing could have on Booker. The shooting guard ranks in the top 10 in technical fouls this season. -- Marks


11. Kristaps Porzingis
Dallas Mavericks
Center
Age: 23.6

Aside from seeing how he looks physically once he returns from his ACL injury, we now have to see how Porzingis adjusts to playing alongside another star, in Doncic. The two could be a much bigger, better-defending version of Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas, a duo that has both the ability to run pick-and-rolls and pick-and-pops.

But with a table-setter of Doncic's caliber, Porzingis should now be willing to cut out the junk that was ruining his shot selection at times in New York. -- Herring


12. Pascal Siakam
Toronto Raptors
Forward
Age: 24.9

This future All-Star is now both good enough to help the Raptors try to retain free-agent-to-be Kawhi Leonard and a potential face of the franchise in case Leonard leaves for another team.

That didn't seem possible when Leonard was acquired from the Spurs. But seven months later, Toronto has a young power forward in Siakam who has gone from a rotation player averaging fewer than 20 MPG in his first two seasons combined to a core player logging 31.6 minutes. -- Marks


T-13. D'Angelo Russell
Brooklyn Nets
Guard
Age: 23.0

It took four years for Russell to make good on his potential as the No. 2 pick in 2015 by the Lakers, but improved 3-point shooting (2.8 makes per game on career-best 37 percent accuracy) and greater maturity translated into an All-Star selection.

Russell's defensive limitations put a cap on his long-term potential, which explains why he rates behind younger players who are currently less productive. He'll also have to prove his success is sustainable. Still, Russell's breakout came at the right time, as he'll be a coveted restricted free agent this summer. -- Pelton


T-13. Lauri Markkanen
Chicago Bulls
Forward/center
Age: 21.8

The Finnish 7-footer has been on the biggest tear of his career lately, averaging 26.5 points and 12.5 rebounds in February on 49 percent shooting overall and 38 percent from 3. He and Zach LaVine have played well off each other this season.

But it will be worth watching where the Bulls land in the draft lottery -- and who they get -- since Chicago already has a couple of young, talented scorers who thrive with the ball. -- Herring


15. Clint Capela
Houston Rockets
Center
Age: 24.8

If we were basing the rankings on present and future production compared to salary, Capela would be in the top 10. Signed to an $80 million contract in the offseason -- No. 19 among all centers -- Capela is a bargain.

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He is perfect fit for the Rockets' offense because 54 percent of his production comes out of the pick-and-roll and cuts, according to Synergy. In fact, per NBA Advanced Stats, more than 99 percent of Capela's shot attempts have come from within nine feet of the rim.

If there is a concern, it would be in the dip in production on the defensive end. Capela has seen his defensive rebounding percentage drop from 30.8 to 26.7 and his defensive rating go from 103.8 last season to 110.1. -- Marks


16. Jaren Jackson Jr.
Memphis Grizzlies
Forward/center
Age: 19.4

Just as it looked like we were going to see Jackson get extended run as the man in the middle after the Marc Gasol trade, the rookie will be forced to sit out indefinitely with a deep thigh bruise.

He arguably has -- and often shows -- more defensive potential than any other player from this most recent draft. He can stay with ball handlers and more than holds his own at the rim. But he can score, too. And he'll be a legitimate problem for the league if he ends up being anywhere near a 40 percent shooter from deep. -- Herring


T-17. Jamal Murray
Denver Nuggets
Guard
Age: 22.0

Having recently celebrated his 22nd birthday, Murray is already the second-leading scorer for a Nuggets team contending for the top seed in the Western Conference. That thumbnail sketch overstates Murray's current value; he scores with below-average efficiency and benefits from Jokic handling much of Denver's playmaking.

Given the typical development curve for point guards, however, Murray will likely improve his shooting accuracy and give the Nuggets a star-caliber perimeter creator to complement Jokic. -- Pelton


T-17. Deandre Ayton
Phoenix Suns
Center
Age: 20.6

By the box score, Ayton's rookie season has been an amazing success. The No. 1 overall pick is averaging 16.4 points and 10.5 rebounds per game while shooting 59 percent. Per Basketball-Reference.com, Ayton's 20.9 player efficiency rating is ninth best on record for a 20-year-old player averaging at least 30 MPG.

In an era where efficient scoring and rebounding are easy to find at center, Ayton must expand his game to help the Suns win. He has made progress as a defender but the 112.1 defensive rating Phoenix allows with Ayton on the court (per NBA.com) would rank 29th in the league. -- Pelton


19. John Collins
Atlanta Hawks
Forward
Age: 21.4

On a roster that features six first-round picks, Collins is the lone Hawks representative on our list. He fits the mold of a prototypical small-ball center.

Collins is multidimensional based on his ability to stretch the floor (shooting 37 percent from 3, including 49 percent from the corner), rebound (ranking eighth with 3.6 offensive rebounds per game) and score down low (76 percent of his field goals made from five feet or less, per NBA.com).

Although he has played only 18 percent of his minutes at center this season, expect that to change in the future, especially with current starter Dewayne Dedmon set to be a free agent. -- Marks


20. Jusuf Nurkic
Portland Trail Blazers
Center
Age: 24.5

Five years into his NBA career, Nurkic cracks the 25-under-25 list on his last chance. After signing a four-year, $48 million contract in 2018, Nurkic is having his best statistical season on both ends of the court. He ranks No. 7 among centers in win shares (6.64), No. 6 in RPM (4.02) among centers and No. 6 in defensive RPM (3.62) among all players.

The question moving forward is if Nurkic can stretch his game outside the paint -- 82 percent of his field goal attempts this season have occurred within nine feet (per NBA.com). -- Marks


T-21. Marvin Bagley III
Sacramento Kings
Forward
Age: 19.9

Bagley represents an even more extreme version of the disconnect between box-score production (20 points and 10.4 rebounds per 36 minutes) and impact (he ranks 91st among power forwards in RPM) than Ayton. At best, Bagley's combination of size and athleticism looks unstoppable in the paint. At worst, he develops tunnel vision offensively and is often in the wrong place on D.

We've seen players overcome poor RPM early in their career to become valuable contributors, and Bagley can follow in their footsteps by improving his weaknesses while reinforcing the strengths that made him the No. 2 pick last June. -- Pelton


T-21. Caris LeVert
Brooklyn Nets
Guard
Age: 24.5

The Brooklyn swingman was fortunate to avoid what, at the time, looked like it would be a season-ending injury when he suffered a dislocated right foot. But in the time he missed, D'Angelo Russell became an All-Star, perhaps forcing LeVert to take at least a half-step back in the offense while he regains his bearings.

Nonetheless, the 6-foot-7 wing has shown the ability to potentially average 20-5-5 in extended minutes, all while playing above-average D. It just may take him time to shake off rust -- or an opportunity to showcase his ability without having to split the ballhandling responsibilities with such capable players in Russell and Spencer Dinwiddie. -- Herring


T-21. Kyle Kuzma
Los Angeles Lakers
Forward
Age: 23.6

We are giving Kuzma the benefit of the doubt based on his upside, and not what he has done for most of this season. If we are judging Kuzma solely on analytics and not the eye test, the forward would not be on this list. He ranks No. 36 among power forwards (behind Noah Vonleh and D.J. Wilson) in RPM (minus-0.12) and has seen his 3-point shooting take a dip this season (from 36.6 to 31.8 percent).

To be fair, some of this can be blamed on the revolving point guard situation in L.A., with Lonzo Ball and Rajon Rondo each missing time after injuries. The top seven lineups for the Lakers this season feature Ball alongside Kuzma. -- Marks


24. Lonzo Ball
Los Angeles Lakers
Guard
Age: 21.3

Nothing has reinforced Ball's value to the Lakers during his second season more than his month-plus absence due to a severe ankle sprain, during which L.A. has gone 4-9 despite LeBron James' return midway through that stretch.

Ball has struggled with confidence in his shot during Year 2, making just 42 percent of his free throws (though he has improved his accuracy on both 2-pointers and 3-pointers). Nonetheless, the value Ball brings as an unselfish playmaker and defender gives him the potential to develop into a key part of a contending team. -- Pelton


25. Jaylen Brown
Boston Celtics
Forward
Age: 22.3

Is this three-spot drop from last season's rankings due to Brown peaking prematurely during his sophomore season, the realization that he could be best suited coming off the bench or a lack of confidence based on an undefined role? The answer could be a combination of all three.

One thing to keep in mind is that Brown is still only 22 and one year removed from being labeled one of the NBA's elite young wings thanks to his size, strong frame, wingspan and ability to play downhill. -- Marks

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 02:04:26 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't have ESPN + how did our young guns do?

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 02:05:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball.

I said this in another thread, but it is truly bizarre to have Mitchell above Tatum. Tatum kills him in just about every single category and it is not even close on advanced stats...

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 02:13:03 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball.

I said this in another thread, but it is truly bizarre to have Mitchell above Tatum. Tatum kills him in just about every single category and it is not even close on advanced stats...
Tatum has more top end potential, but Mitchell is currently a better player.  So it does seem odd that a list based on future potential would have them in the opposite order.  Now maybe they think Mitchell is more likely to reach his potential and since he is already better, they ranked him higher, but solely on future potential I can't see having Mitchell ahead of Tatum.
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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 02:17:34 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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No they did not forget lngram. He's garbage

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 02:23:36 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Pretty good. Tatum is probably about right. Luka should probably be above Simmons. It's hard to believe Devin Booker is still so young. Great to see Jaylen making the list and Ingram missing it. I'd definitely rather have Jaylen than Ingram.
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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 02:25:18 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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No they did not forget lngram. He's garbage


The New Orleans Pelicans agree with you.

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 03:04:20 PM »

Offline footey

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No they did not forget lngram. He's garbage

He should be on the list, even if at the bottom. Can't believe his stock has dropped that much in one year.  Most NBA GM's would take him over Ball, and many would take him over Jaylen right now, as having more upside. It just seems very odd to me he was left off completely.

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2019, 03:05:42 PM »

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No they didn't, and honestly I think Ball is a stretch.
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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2019, 03:12:41 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball.

I said this in another thread, but it is truly bizarre to have Mitchell above Tatum. Tatum kills him in just about every single category and it is not even close on advanced stats...
Tatum has more top end potential, but Mitchell is currently a better player.  So it does seem odd that a list based on future potential would have them in the opposite order.  Now maybe they think Mitchell is more likely to reach his potential and since he is already better, they ranked him higher, but solely on future potential I can't see having Mitchell ahead of Tatum.

You didn't answer me on the other thread when i provided all their basic and advanced stats, how exactly is mitchell better?
He shoots worse, turns the ball over a ton and is worse or even on most advanced ratings..

Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2019, 03:46:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball.

I said this in another thread, but it is truly bizarre to have Mitchell above Tatum. Tatum kills him in just about every single category and it is not even close on advanced stats...
Tatum has more top end potential, but Mitchell is currently a better player.  So it does seem odd that a list based on future potential would have them in the opposite order.  Now maybe they think Mitchell is more likely to reach his potential and since he is already better, they ranked him higher, but solely on future potential I can't see having Mitchell ahead of Tatum.

You didn't answer me on the other thread when i provided all their basic and advanced stats, how exactly is mitchell better?
He shoots worse, turns the ball over a ton and is worse or even on most advanced ratings..
I have no idea what other thread you are talking about.  Mitchell is the #1 option on a good team.  He takes the brunt of the offensive focus from opposing defenses negatively affecting his stats.    Mitchell's TOV% is 11% that is more than Tatum, but not exactly a ton either.  Mitchell generates steals and assists at nearly the double rate of Tatum (while Tatum nearly doubles Mitchell in TRB%).  Mitchell had a poor November and December where he was struggling with all of the defensive attention (which he has acknowledged was a factor), but has been much better since (and was on fire in January).  I just don't see their situations as all that comparable given just how much attention Mitchell has been getting while Tatum gets far less defensive attention (he is barely 2nd in shots per 36 while Mitchell has over 7 more shots per 36 than Rubio who is 2nd on the team).  That lesser attention and more even distribution greatly increases a players percentages and conversely the more focused attention diminishes a players stats.  For the future, I'd take Tatum, but if I needed to win a playoff series this year, I'd take Mitchell as I believe he is the better player right now.
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Re: ESPN's New Top 25 under 25--Did they forget Brandon Ingram?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2019, 03:57:34 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Biggest takes:

1. Ingram not on list.
2. Tatum 8th, just after Mitchell at 7.
3. KAT is 4th, which seems too high to me.
4. Doncic is 6th, just after Simmons at 5.
5. Fox jumped up to 9.
6. Zinger dropped to 11.
7. Siakam jumped up to 12.
8. Russell jumped to 13, tied with Markkanen.
9. Jaylen is 25th, just after Kuzma and Ball.

I said this in another thread, but it is truly bizarre to have Mitchell above Tatum. Tatum kills him in just about every single category and it is not even close on advanced stats...
Tatum has more top end potential, but Mitchell is currently a better player.  So it does seem odd that a list based on future potential would have them in the opposite order.  Now maybe they think Mitchell is more likely to reach his potential and since he is already better, they ranked him higher, but solely on future potential I can't see having Mitchell ahead of Tatum.

You didn't answer me on the other thread when i provided all their basic and advanced stats, how exactly is mitchell better?
He shoots worse, turns the ball over a ton and is worse or even on most advanced ratings..
I have no idea what other thread you are talking about.  Mitchell is the #1 option on a good team.  He takes the brunt of the offensive focus from opposing defenses negatively affecting his stats.    Mitchell's TOV% is 11% that is more than Tatum, but not exactly a ton either.  Mitchell generates steals and assists at nearly the double rate of Tatum (while Tatum nearly doubles Mitchell in TRB%).  Mitchell had a poor November and December where he was struggling with all of the defensive attention (which he has acknowledged was a factor), but has been much better since (and was on fire in January).  I just don't see their situations as all that comparable given just how much attention Mitchell has been getting while Tatum gets far less defensive attention (he is barely 2nd in shots per 36 while Mitchell has over 7 more shots per 36 than Rubio who is 2nd on the team).  That lesser attention and more even distribution greatly increases a players percentages and conversely the more focused attention diminishes a players stats.  For the future, I'd take Tatum, but if I needed to win a playoff series this year, I'd take Mitchell as I believe he is the better player right now.

Ya I have no issue with Mitchell being above Tatum, I wouldn't mind if it was the other way around either. But right now Mitchell is doing more in a bigger role, and that gives him the lead. Saying Tatum is "only" the eighth bets under 25 isnt an insult.