Author Topic: CAVSMAGEDDON!!  (Read 51134 times)

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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2018, 06:41:54 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Obviously James' effort has been better the last 4 games, but who was he supposed to be passing the ball to before then (especially with Love out).  Korver can only take so many shots before he is guarded and no one else was hitting the broad side of a barn.  Crowder and Thomas were just awful.  Smith was very inconsistent.  Wade and Rose have never been good shooters.  None of those guys could defend anyone, so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

wait you are saying Lebron shouldn't have tried on defense cause he was playing with bad defensive players?
I'm saying it is a long season and olayers pace themselves throughout.  If time and time again your effort is futile it is only natural that over time ypur effort diminishes.  Look at the Warriors this year.  They keep losing to significantly inferior teams in large part because of their effort.  Kerr has been talking about that for the better part of a month and it why he let them coach themselves i.e. to try and get them more focused.  To expect a player like LeBron to be 100% on night in and night out is silly especially when his teammates either aren't giving the effort or just aren't good enough.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2018, 07:23:32 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.


Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2018, 08:21:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated. 
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2018, 08:30:28 AM »

Online Roy H.

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2018, 08:49:24 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.

Did bird every give up for weeks on end at any point? I was just a kid when he was playing so wasn't really quite as observant back that.

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2018, 09:18:55 AM »

Offline Moranis

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.
Cavs were 24-12 when IT played his first game.  They were 31-22 after the Minnesota game which was IT's last game.  So from IT's first game to his last game they were 7-10.

The Cavs obviously had some problems that pre-dated IT i.e. lack of shooters, older players, lack of defenders, etc., but they were a much worse team after IT started playing both because he was awful on the court and because he was constantly yapping causing all sorts of locker-room problems. 
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2018, 09:39:07 AM »

Online Roy H.

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.
Cavs were 24-12 when IT played his first game.  They were 31-22 after the Minnesota game which was IT's last game.  So from IT's first game to his last game they were 7-10.

The Cavs obviously had some problems that pre-dated IT i.e. lack of shooters, older players, lack of defenders, etc., but they were a much worse team after IT started playing both because he was awful on the court and because he was constantly yapping causing all sorts of locker-room problems.

They lost 4 of 5 prior to him being activated, though, and were a cumulative 1-6 starting December 25 in games IT didn’t play.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2018, 09:43:11 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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The Cavs were becoming a mess with and without IT. He wasn't a good fit for that squad. CLE looks like they were able to right the ship with these decent role players.

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2018, 09:53:03 AM »

Offline Moranis

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.
Cavs were 24-12 when IT played his first game.  They were 31-22 after the Minnesota game which was IT's last game.  So from IT's first game to his last game they were 7-10.

The Cavs obviously had some problems that pre-dated IT i.e. lack of shooters, older players, lack of defenders, etc., but they were a much worse team after IT started playing both because he was awful on the court and because he was constantly yapping causing all sorts of locker-room problems.

They lost 4 of 5 prior to him being activated, though, and were a cumulative 1-6 starting December 25 in games IT didn’t play.
sure and they were 18-1 in the 19 games before that 5 game mostly road stretch.  I'm in the Cleveland area, IT was by far the biggest problem with the team because of the locker-room problems he was causing.  That is all the sports talk was talking about.  That locker-room was a disaster and IT was the main cause of the problems.  The reality is, no matter the profession, when you don't like going to work because you don't get along with your co-workers, your work suffers.  When you do like going to work you work harder, longer, better, etc.  It will always be that way in all walks of life.  IT was the biggest problem with the Cavs the last month and a half.  The whole team just has a lot more life and energy because IT isn't there.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2018, 10:02:47 AM »

Online Roy H.

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.
Cavs were 24-12 when IT played his first game.  They were 31-22 after the Minnesota game which was IT's last game.  So from IT's first game to his last game they were 7-10.

The Cavs obviously had some problems that pre-dated IT i.e. lack of shooters, older players, lack of defenders, etc., but they were a much worse team after IT started playing both because he was awful on the court and because he was constantly yapping causing all sorts of locker-room problems.

They lost 4 of 5 prior to him being activated, though, and were a cumulative 1-6 starting December 25 in games IT didn’t play.
sure and they were 18-1 in the 19 games before that 5 game mostly road stretch.  I'm in the Cleveland area, IT was by far the biggest problem with the team because of the locker-room problems he was causing.  That is all the sports talk was talking about.  That locker-room was a disaster and IT was the main cause of the problems.  The reality is, no matter the profession, when you don't like going to work because you don't get along with your co-workers, your work suffers.  When you do like going to work you work harder, longer, better, etc.  It will always be that way in all walks of life.  IT was the biggest problem with the Cavs the last month and a half.  The whole team just has a lot more life and energy because IT isn't there.

Sports talk isn’t all that persuasive to me.

The team slumped without IT. That’s an undeniable fact.

Lebron made no effort to bring the team together. He seemed more invested in taking himself out of the offense, going through the motions on defense, and cussing out executives. That’s without even getting into his detiorated relationship with Kyrie, and the multiple year isolation of Kevin Love.

At what point does Lebron get even an once of blame?


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2018, 10:04:42 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Cavs have improved a lot since the trade, in part because it has re-energized Lebron, and who can blame him.

I really like their second unit.  Always liked Clarkson and Nance.  Hood was a steal.  GM of the year just on this trade alone.

GM of the year?! This might have re-energized Lebron (for who knows how long - don't forget the Cavs had a 13 game win streak earlier in the year), but that award usually goes to a GM who has a noticeably better team than the previous year. I think we can all objectively say that is not the case.

Koby Altman may have moved up from [literally] last place on the list, but look no further than our own Danny Ainge if you are looking for front runners for the award.

Yeah, the Kyrie trade counts in his annual evaluation.  The Cavs are worse now than they were last year.
Are you really so sure of that?  Yes, they don't have as much top end talent, and top end talent often is the most important thing, but it doesn't always work that way.  Irving and James weren't a great fit offensively as they are both incredibly ball dominant offensive players and their offense would often just be a your turn/my turn type of offense, which generally didn't yield the best results, especially for the other players on the team.  Obviously, there will be times when not having Irving's ability to create a shot out of nothing will be a problem for the Cavs, but I wouldn't be so sure the team this year won't end up being better than the Cavs team from last year.  They have a much more cohesive unit, have a much younger and more athletic bench that not only has better shooters, but also much better defenders.  Remember the Cavs bench in the playoffs last year was Kyle Korver, Richard Jefferson, Deron Williams, and Iman Shumpert with guys like Derrick Williams, Dahntay Jones, Channing Frye, and James Jones playing here and there.  You don't necessarily win playoff series with your bench, but you can certainly lose them.  And for as great as Irving is, he was -32 against the Warriors in the 5 games, while James was -7.  The Cavs will only be as good as James, and I wouldn't bet against the current group being a better fit with James and thus making James even better. 
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #161 on: February 15, 2018, 10:07:58 AM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Cavs have improved a lot since the trade, in part because it has re-energized Lebron, and who can blame him.

I really like their second unit.  Always liked Clarkson and Nance.  Hood was a steal.  GM of the year just on this trade alone.

Clarkson and Nance were bench players on a lottery team.  Hood was a toss away.  Give me a break.

Pretty telling when someone like Royce O'Neale who played well in sparingly few minutes, managed to convince the Jazz brass that he was the clear cut choice over Hood.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2018, 10:09:30 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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so why would you expect James to make the defensive effort when at least 3 of the other players could do whatever they wanted without resistance.

I think he is probably the team captain no?   Aren't those guys supposed to set an example.   LeBron deserves his share of the blame for the early debacle that was the Cavs.  His apologists like yourself seem to think he never deserves a share of the blame.
of course he deserves some blame for his lack of effort, but no one was providing effort because that locker room was a mess.  They just didn't get alone.  Once Thomas was extricated a lot of the ill will dissipated.

The Cavs had issues long before IT was activated, though. He just became a convenient scapegoat.

Lebron should take accountability for his lack of leadership. He basically gave up for a few weeks.
Cavs were 24-12 when IT played his first game.  They were 31-22 after the Minnesota game which was IT's last game.  So from IT's first game to his last game they were 7-10.

The Cavs obviously had some problems that pre-dated IT i.e. lack of shooters, older players, lack of defenders, etc., but they were a much worse team after IT started playing both because he was awful on the court and because he was constantly yapping causing all sorts of locker-room problems.

They lost 4 of 5 prior to him being activated, though, and were a cumulative 1-6 starting December 25 in games IT didn’t play.
sure and they were 18-1 in the 19 games before that 5 game mostly road stretch.  I'm in the Cleveland area, IT was by far the biggest problem with the team because of the locker-room problems he was causing.  That is all the sports talk was talking about.  That locker-room was a disaster and IT was the main cause of the problems.  The reality is, no matter the profession, when you don't like going to work because you don't get along with your co-workers, your work suffers.  When you do like going to work you work harder, longer, better, etc.  It will always be that way in all walks of life.  IT was the biggest problem with the Cavs the last month and a half.  The whole team just has a lot more life and energy because IT isn't there.

Sports talk isn’t all that persuasive to me.

The team slumped without IT. That’s an undeniable fact.

Lebron made no effort to bring the team together. He seemed more invested in taking himself out of the offense, going through the motions on defense, and cussing out executives. That’s without even getting into his detiorated relationship with Kyrie, and the multiple year isolation of Kevin Love.

At what point does Lebron get even an once of blame?

I think with most non-Cleveland fans he gets a lot. I think players around the NBA are seeing how much air Lebron sucks out of the room and it is becoming less appealing to play with him. We are at 2 all stars from last years game that didn't want to play with him in the last 9 months. Kevin love doesn't look thrilled either. He is going to have to tone down his prima Donna routine as he ages or it is going to be an ugly twilight to his career

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2018, 10:12:47 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Cavs have improved a lot since the trade, in part because it has re-energized Lebron, and who can blame him.

I really like their second unit.  Always liked Clarkson and Nance.  Hood was a steal.  GM of the year just on this trade alone.

Clarkson and Nance were bench players on a lottery team.  Hood was a toss away.  Give me a break.

Pretty telling when someone like Royce O'Neale who played well in sparingly few minutes, managed to convince the Jazz brass that he was the clear cut choice over Hood.
Well, Hood has missed about 60 of the last 140 games with various injuries, so there's that.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2018, 11:03:05 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Cavs have improved a lot since the trade, in part because it has re-energized Lebron, and who can blame him.

I really like their second unit.  Always liked Clarkson and Nance.  Hood was a steal.  GM of the year just on this trade alone.

GM of the year?! This might have re-energized Lebron (for who knows how long - don't forget the Cavs had a 13 game win streak earlier in the year), but that award usually goes to a GM who has a noticeably better team than the previous year. I think we can all objectively say that is not the case.

Koby Altman may have moved up from [literally] last place on the list, but look no further than our own Danny Ainge if you are looking for front runners for the award.

Yeah, the Kyrie trade counts in his annual evaluation.  The Cavs are worse now than they were last year.
Are you really so sure of that?  Yes, they don't have as much top end talent, and top end talent often is the most important thing, but it doesn't always work that way.  Irving and James weren't a great fit offensively as they are both incredibly ball dominant offensive players and their offense would often just be a your turn/my turn type of offense, which generally didn't yield the best results, especially for the other players on the team.  Obviously, there will be times when not having Irving's ability to create a shot out of nothing will be a problem for the Cavs, but I wouldn't be so sure the team this year won't end up being better than the Cavs team from last year.  They have a much more cohesive unit, have a much younger and more athletic bench that not only has better shooters, but also much better defenders.  Remember the Cavs bench in the playoffs last year was Kyle Korver, Richard Jefferson, Deron Williams, and Iman Shumpert with guys like Derrick Williams, Dahntay Jones, Channing Frye, and James Jones playing here and there.  You don't necessarily win playoff series with your bench, but you can certainly lose them.  And for as great as Irving is, he was -32 against the Warriors in the 5 games, while James was -7.  The Cavs will only be as good as James, and I wouldn't bet against the current group being a better fit with James and thus making James even better.

I’m sure of it, yes. 

The Cavs cruised into the Finals at 12-1 in the East last year.  Replacing Kyrie’s 26 ppg will be easier said than done.


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