Author Topic: CAVSMAGEDDON!!  (Read 51110 times)

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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2018, 08:40:10 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Very painful day.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2018, 09:49:21 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

He scored more as in 11.0 more points per game.  That's a huge amount, especially when maintaining efficiency.  For perspective, that's about the same scoring differential as there is between Lebron and Andre Drummond this year.

Win Shares, BPM, VORP, PER...  all of them have IT having a better season by a wide margin. 

Kevin Love isn't any more of a complete player than IT was last season.  Love is a terrible defender, just like IT.  The difference is that IT added much, much more on the offensive end, while creating his own shot and opportunities for his teammates.  That's why IT made All-NBA second team, while Love hasn't made an All-NBA team in four seasons (and won't think year).
Love is playing with LeBron. Love's last year in Minnesota he was better than 26 and 12 (not to mention 4.4 apg).  Love isn't a worse player now at age 29 then he was then at age 25 or at age 23 when he finished 6th in MVP voting.  Just because he plays with James this year and James and Irving the last 3 stunting his stats doesn't mean he is a worse player.  Kevin Love is better than IT and always has been.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2018, 09:53:07 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2018, 12:12:23 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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Very painful day.

I agree. We had no effort and played like crap. Worst of all we have to deal with cavs fans gloating on here and talking about how great they are for the next few weeks. Sad we have to deal with that's on a Celtics forum

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2018, 12:20:22 AM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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Give it time folks, I am sure LeBron is on his best behavior right now.   Let these guys get to know him, LeBron is a great time when he is winning but a lose or two and he will start blaming everyone but himself.

Yeah I 100% agree. Jeff Van Gundy even mentioned it on the broadcast today.

It's easy to be happy and feel good during wins, BUT when any sort of losing happens or adversity strikes, that's when things can get testy.

Remember when everything looked great at The Land during their winning streak? What happened when they started losing more and playing with less effort. Half the team got shipped out.

This isn't directed at you, Phantom, you just happened to bring it up:

I think "The Land" is a weak attempt at a nickname, and not known broadly enough to have it on a jersey.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2018, 06:09:03 AM »

Online Roy H.

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts

You said Love this year was better than IT last year. There’s no real objective support for that position. We judge players based upon results.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2018, 07:11:51 AM »

Offline Big333223

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts

You said Love this year was better than IT last year. There’s no real objective support for that position. We judge players based upon results.

Yeah, this is a pretty wild argument to me. I know IT gets some hate around this board now, but arguing that Kevin Love is having a better season this year than IT had last year is... just wild.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2018, 08:15:02 AM »

Offline Erik

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:25:10 AM by Erik »

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2018, 08:24:57 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts

You said Love this year was better than IT last year. There’s no real objective support for that position. We judge players based upon results.
By this logic IT was a better player then both Curry and Durant last year also.  Stats are based on team role, surrounding players, etc.  Stats don't tell you who a better player is.  They certainly play a role.  IT had the 5th best season last year, but he wasn't the 5th best player in the world. 

Kevin Love had multiple seasons of at least 26 ppg and 12.5 rpg.  One of those seasons he added nearly 4.5 apg (the other was 2).  He finished 6th in MVP voting one of those seasons (he was 11th in the other).  He was 2nd Team All NBA both of those seasons.  He was the #1 option on that team, but was aged 23 and 25 in those seasons (age 24 year he was injured).  He then went to a team where he was no longer the #1 option and that had other excellent rebounders and his stats diminished.  He is now 29, which historically is right in the middle of a players physical prime.  Kevin Love is thus the best actual player he has ever been and that player is at least a 26/12/4 player as a #1 option and that player is a better player than IT has ever been.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2018, 08:29:31 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The whole thing feels a little desperate to me. Which makes sense, the Cavs are desperate.

I think George Hill is going to be the X-Factor to this whole thing. If he keeps having the season he's been having, I don't see the Cavs making it out of the second round. If he was just bored in Sacramento and starts looking like he did last year in Utah, then he could be a nice compliment for Lebron and Love and then, who knows.
Hill is leading the league in 3pt percentage.  His numbers aren't much different from last season and he has been on a much worse team playing 5 mpg less.

So is he their 3rd best player? He is a far cry from Kevin Love (who obviously is now the Cavs second best player). This could help them win the east for sure, but I don't see how the Rockets or Warriors wouldn't sweep them (and probably the thunder in 5).
Love has been their 2nd best player all year.  I actually think they could be a better overall team than any time since Lebron has returned (except that first season when Love and Irving were injured in the playoffs) even though they have less top end talent.  They have a lot more cohesion and balance in the roster construction from top to bottom.  They got younger, more athletic, better defensively, with better shooters, and a roster that suits what James (and to a lesser extent Love) do well.  They have a very nice 2 deep rotation at every position (except center) and the players actually fit together well.  There will of course be games where they will miss what Irving can do offensively, but overall I think they might just be a better team (they will still almost certainly lose to the Warriors if they both get there, but they lost in 5 last year so that wouldn't be an unexpected result).  That of course assumes that Love returns and their roster actually gels and learns how to play together in the short time they have.  Those are two very big if's, but assuming both do actually happen, I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs aren't in the Finals again.


this is just a hilarious take. Stars win in the NBA in the playoffs, not role-players. Celtics fans should know that of everyone because our team of gutty role-players and IT4 dragged the team all the way to the eastern conference finals where talent finally took over and we got wrecked.

look at the talent on even last years team, and to say this years has more is just a hot take. just Irving alone is worth more than those roleplayers. Unless you trust them to win you a game and get tough points..
you misunderstood my post.  So let me clarify,  James has always been Cleveland's best player.  He and Irving weren't a very good fit.  Their offense would often stagnant with them just taking turns doing their thing.  They had no real cohesion and they both often ignored each other and Love, who is a great offensive player in his own right.   If this team makes it work, it will have significantly better cohesion and a much clearer sense of team and identity.  It is James' team, James' offense, etc.  Obviously there are times where Irving's ability to get a basket will be misssed, but overall the team is constructed to better utilize its best player and in the process also better utilize Love.  It has mich better defense overall as well and when the Cavs lose, they lose on that end of the floor.

You are asking Lebron to be superhuman every night(which is entirely possible) and not have any off games.

lets not forget Kyrie Irving won them their first championship with his shot over Curry or they may very well have lost in 7 games.

I just think the NBA is a game where superstars dominate. and we saw that last year when a scrappy "team" of role-players in the celtics got steamrolled by a team that basically just played lebron/kyrie iso

I would have more faith in these guys gelling right away if the team had an actual coach. and not Tyron lue
James and Love are both better players than anyone on last year's Celtics. To compare them is just silly

Last year’s IT > this year’s Love.
no he wasn't. He scored more on slightly better shooting efficiency but IT was not a better player than Love. Love is a mich more complete player on both ends of the floor.

Wrong.

Isaiah was a Top-5 MVP candidate that averaged 29/6 and he made All-NBA 2nd team. Love had a great season but his defense wasn't elite either, and Isaiah's impact overall on the C's outweighs Kevin Love's impact on the Cavaliers.

To say Kevin Love's season last year > Isaiah's is honestly ridiculous to me. Even stats seem to disagree with that despite Isaiah also being horrible on defense (which is actually amazing to be honest - he did have a helluva year for us last year).
I said Love was better than IT. I never said Love this year or last year has had a better season than IT had last year.  There is a very big difference between those statemwnts

You said Love this year was better than IT last year. There’s no real objective support for that position. We judge players based upon results.

Yeah, this is a pretty wild argument to me. I know IT gets some hate around this board now, but arguing that Kevin Love is having a better season this year than IT had last year is... just wild.
Again I never argued Love was having a better season, I said he is a better player.  There is a very large difference between those two statements.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2018, 08:32:31 AM »

Offline Moranis

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.
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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2018, 08:43:07 AM »

Online Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2018, 08:56:28 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.

I agree. IT was better than Kevin Love one year. That being said, I would have traded IT for Kevin Love straight up at the end of last year.

At this point, IT is being traded as if he has very little value. Whether we love IT or not, the NBA does not value him very much as a basketball player. This is a tough time to defend his value.

Re: Cavsmageddon: The Cavs have improved. They are better than the Celtics.

Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2018, 09:04:34 AM »

Online Roy H.

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.

I agree. IT was better than Kevin Love one year. That being said, I would have traded IT for Kevin Love straight up at the end of last year.

At this point, IT is being traded as if he has very little value. Whether we love IT or not, the NBA does not value him very much as a basketball player. This is a tough time to defend his value.

Current value, yes. He’s got a hip condition and is rusty.  Danny probably sold high.

But, Love doesn’t have much value himself. Rememember, the Cavs reportedly were having trouble finding a team to take him when they were trying to trade for Love over the summer.


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Re: CAVSMAGEDDON!!
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2018, 09:14:35 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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It's obvious IT performed better last year than Kevin Love this year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id1_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y1=2017&player_id1=thomais02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kevin+Love&player_id2_select=Kevin+Love&y2=2018&player_id2=loveke01&idx=players

Maybe what Moranis was getting at is that an entire NBA team (top to bottom, offense, defense)  wasn't designed around Kevin Love like it was for IT and he could perform similarly if that were the case. I think that I would probably agree with that because Love has consistently been regarded as a top 30 player (sometimes 20, 10, 5). IT had one season in which he was maybe top 10. The evidence strongly points to ITs success being more the system than the player and that Love is an actual star.
This is basically what I've been arguing.  That the stats don't actually tell you who a better player is.  Kevin Love is a better player than Isaiah Thomas and he has been every single year IT has been in the league, despite the fact that IT had a better statistical season last year.

Then Kevin Love is the biggest underachiever in recent memory.  Players are measured in achievement and production, not some unrealized potential.

I agree. IT was better than Kevin Love one year. That being said, I would have traded IT for Kevin Love straight up at the end of last year.

At this point, IT is being traded as if he has very little value. Whether we love IT or not, the NBA does not value him very much as a basketball player. This is a tough time to defend his value.

Current value, yes. He’s got a hip condition and is rusty.  Danny probably sold high.

But, Love doesn’t have much value himself. Rememember, the Cavs reportedly were having trouble finding a team to take him when they were trying to trade for Love over the summer.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't you in the camp that thought that IT's hip was not a serious concern? At this point (and at his age), it not crazy to think that IT won't regain his athleticism.

I think this is the source of IT's frustration. He realizes that he's damaged goods, at the worst possible time. I think it is disingenuous for IT to hint that he should have shut it down during the playoffs- IT wanted to perform under the big lights more than anyone. He deserves the admiration of Danny, but that's about it.

I don't see how a team gives him big money for more than 2 years at this point.