If can only choose one to keep after this season - Stevens or Irving (poll)

[PhoSita]

Agreed; I'd rather have a mediocre but stable vet like Darren Collison or DJ Augustin than Rozier.

Rozier's numbers as a starter this year are similar to Collison's. They're actually a little better than Collison's, but similar.

I don't have the numbers but I can only imagine the Collison is more consistent, and less frequently torpedoes his team by taking a series of dumb, hasty shots.


Also Collison is shooting 49.5% on two pointers this year, which is also his career average.

Terry: 43.1% on twos, 40.6% career average.


Terry's shooting stats are way better in the 11 games that he's started.

How much of that is due to him being much better as a starter, and how much is due to the fact that he only starts if Kyrie is resting, which tends to happen against lesser opponents?

My feeling is that if Terry were the starter full time, then opponents would have more time to gameplan for him and his overall numbers would end up somewhere between his current starter / bench split.



Finally, at the risk of really taking this too far since I suspect you're not really trying to stan for Terry Rozier here or anything, I would point out that I imagine Collison, Augustin or the like will expect fewer years and less money.

[nickagneta]

Agreed; I'd rather have a mediocre but stable vet like Darren Collison or DJ Augustin than Rozier.

Rozier's numbers as a starter this year are similar to Collison's. They're actually a little better than Collison's, but similar.

I don't have the numbers but I can only imagine the Collison is more consistent, and less frequently torpedoes his team by taking a series of dumb, hasty shots.


Also Collison is shooting 49.5% on two pointers this year, which is also his career average.

Terry: 43.1% on twos, 40.6% career average.


Terry's shooting stats are way better in the 11 games that he's started.

How much of that is due to him being much better as a starter, and how much is due to the fact that he only starts if Kyrie is resting, which tends to happen against lesser opponents?

My feeling is that if Terry were the starter full time, then opponents would have more time to gameplan for him and his overall numbers would end up somewhere between his current starter / bench split.



Finally, at the risk of really taking this too far since I suspect you're not really trying to stan for Terry Rozier here or anything, I would point out that I imagine Collison, Augustin or the like will expect fewer years and less money.

When you look at all 46 games Rozier has started, both regular season and playoffs, his numbers would project to being a middle of the road starter in the NBA with numbers of 15.5/5.5/5.5 with shooting of 41/37/81.

He's a good starter. Just horrible off the bench. It's hard to explain.

[PhoSita]

Agreed; I'd rather have a mediocre but stable vet like Darren Collison or DJ Augustin than Rozier.

Rozier's numbers as a starter this year are similar to Collison's. They're actually a little better than Collison's, but similar.

I don't have the numbers but I can only imagine the Collison is more consistent, and less frequently torpedoes his team by taking a series of dumb, hasty shots.


Also Collison is shooting 49.5% on two pointers this year, which is also his career average.

Terry: 43.1% on twos, 40.6% career average.


Terry's shooting stats are way better in the 11 games that he's started.

How much of that is due to him being much better as a starter, and how much is due to the fact that he only starts if Kyrie is resting, which tends to happen against lesser opponents?

My feeling is that if Terry were the starter full time, then opponents would have more time to gameplan for him and his overall numbers would end up somewhere between his current starter / bench split.



Finally, at the risk of really taking this too far since I suspect you're not really trying to stan for Terry Rozier here or anything, I would point out that I imagine Collison, Augustin or the like will expect fewer years and less money.

When you look at all 46 games Rozier has started, both regular season and playoffs, his numbers would project to being a middle of the road starter in the NBA with numbers of 15.5/5.5/5.5 with shooting of 41/37/81.

He's a good starter. Just horrible off the bench. It's hard to explain.

The explanation I've seen sometimes, which is that when he's coming off the bench he presses the issue because he knows he has limited time to get his numbers, makes sense to me and feels correct.


I know Terry's starter numbers are basically average for the position, which is better than the names I mentioned.

But I'd rather pay less, for fewer years, and for a guy who is more likely to accept a role as a 24-28 mpg supporting player as opposed to a guy who wants to recapture the "Scary Terry" magic.


Even at his best, Terry doesn't have great court vision or decision-making, which are important traits for a starting guard.

[NKY fan]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

[Donoghus]

I don't know how much money TR is going to get in the open market but, at the end of the day, I hope its another team that's paying it. 

[blink]

Agreed; I'd rather have a mediocre but stable vet like Darren Collison or DJ Augustin than Rozier.

Rozier's numbers as a starter this year are similar to Collison's. They're actually a little better than Collison's, but similar.

I don't have the numbers but I can only imagine the Collison is more consistent, and less frequently torpedoes his team by taking a series of dumb, hasty shots.


Also Collison is shooting 49.5% on two pointers this year, which is also his career average.

Terry: 43.1% on twos, 40.6% career average.


Terry's shooting stats are way better in the 11 games that he's started.

How much of that is due to him being much better as a starter, and how much is due to the fact that he only starts if Kyrie is resting, which tends to happen against lesser opponents?

My feeling is that if Terry were the starter full time, then opponents would have more time to gameplan for him and his overall numbers would end up somewhere between his current starter / bench split.



Finally, at the risk of really taking this too far since I suspect you're not really trying to stan for Terry Rozier here or anything, I would point out that I imagine Collison, Augustin or the like will expect fewer years and less money.

When you look at all 46 games Rozier has started, both regular season and playoffs, his numbers would project to being a middle of the road starter in the NBA with numbers of 15.5/5.5/5.5 with shooting of 41/37/81.

He's a good starter. Just horrible off the bench. It's hard to explain.

The explanation I've seen sometimes, which is that when he's coming off the bench he presses the issue because he knows he has limited time to get his numbers, makes sense to me and feels correct.


I know Terry's starter numbers are basically average for the position, which is better than the names I mentioned.

But I'd rather pay less, for fewer years, and for a guy who is more likely to accept a role as a 24-28 mpg supporting player as opposed to a guy who wants to recapture the "Scary Terry" magic.


Even at his best, Terry doesn't have great court vision or decision-making, which are important traits for a starting guard.

I think any bad decision making seems to come into play with bad shot selection and poor FG%.  I know it is the most frustrating thing to see Rozier jack up a bad shot, but that only tells part of the story.  But.....

I think as a decision maker in general, for say assists to turnovers, he is pretty good.  For example he was great in last years playoffs - 5.73 assists / 1.16 turn overs per game.  In the regular season he is 3.4 A/T - which is best on the team.  This is better than Kyrie who is 2.8 A/T, and Smart who is 2.7 A/T this year in the regular season.

For as much crap as we give Terry, he has been good at taking care of the ball and finding open guys.  Those are also important traits related to decision making.

[PhoSita]

I think as a decision maker in general, for say assists to turnovers, he is pretty good.  For example he was great in last years playoffs - 5.73 assists / 1.16 turn overs per game.  In the regular season he is 3.4 A/T - which is best on the team.  This is better than Kyrie who is 2.8 A/T, and Smart who is 2.7 A/T this year in the regular season.

For as much crap as we give Terry, he has been good at taking care of the ball and finding open guys.  Those are also important traits related to decision making.

Taking care of the ball is not the same thing as having good court vision.  Terry has a tendency toward tunnel vision.  He's a shot-hunter first and foremost. 

Yes, it's less bad when he's starting as opposed to coming off the bench and feels like he needs to force the issue, but he's still not the type of guy I prefer as a starting point.

I'm not a traditional "point guards should be passers first" kind of guy, either, but I do think it's really important to have a steady operator at the point of attack as your main pick and roll ballhandler.


Barring major improvement from Hayward or a leap forward in ballhandling, passing, and vision from Brown or Tatum, the Celts will need their point guard to be a really capable as the lead playmaker.  I don't have a lot of confidence in Terry for that role.

[blink]

I think as a decision maker in general, for say assists to turnovers, he is pretty good.  For example he was great in last years playoffs - 5.73 assists / 1.16 turn overs per game.  In the regular season he is 3.4 A/T - which is best on the team.  This is better than Kyrie who is 2.8 A/T, and Smart who is 2.7 A/T this year in the regular season.

For as much crap as we give Terry, he has been good at taking care of the ball and finding open guys.  Those are also important traits related to decision making.

Taking care of the ball is not the same thing as having good court vision.  Terry has a tendency toward tunnel vision.  He's a shot-hunter first and foremost. 

Yes, it's less bad when he's starting as opposed to coming off the bench and feels like he needs to force the issue, but he's still not the type of guy I prefer as a starting point.

I never said that taking care of the ball is the same thing as having good court vision.  I actually didn't say anything about court vision at all. 

I was responding to your original post where you said Terry is bad at  "decision-making".   What I said is that a good assist to turnover ration is ONE way to judge a player's decision making, and it is.  Terry is pretty good at taking care of the ball, but he is bad at taking bad / quick shots. 

Look I am not saying Rozier is my fav replacement for Kyrie.  He is probably gone after this year no matter what.  But when we rag on players over and over again for bad decision making we need to consider the whole story.  You can't ignore a guard's A/T ratio when you are having that conversation.

[RJ87]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

[NKY fan]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

He may want to play with Harden or he may want to play griffin. Whatever he wants just don稚 leave for nothing

[Spicoli]

Irving with no hesitation. This team is going nowhere under Stevens' leadership. I would do anything to not have to watch another second of this small ball offense. His offensive philosophy is terrible and honestly so is his defensive philosophy. Any team that runs pick and roll over and over again will defeat the Celtics. Not even sure what Stevens does well at this point.

[nickagneta]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

Yup. No more 5th year on sign and trades. Soooo, there is no reason for for a max level paid player to agree to a sign and trade because he gets to keep that extra guaranteed year of pay on their next max contract if they are moving on from their team.

Kyrie will not be doing the Celtics any favors by agreeing to a sign and trade. Boston won't be doing Kyrie any favor by sign and trading him so he can go play for a team he wants to go to but doesn't have the cap space to sign him.

It comes down to Kyrie will either sign here for a five year deal, or he will sign elsewhere for 4 years somewhere else. That is really the only options with Kyrie this off season.

[Tr1boy]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

yes...and the new team he goes to would weaken

but he would get an extra year salary and provide the Celts a nice farewell gift

[PhoSita]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

Yup. No more 5th year on sign and trades. Soooo, there is no reason for for a max level paid player to agree to a sign and trade because he gets to keep that extra guaranteed year of pay on their next max contract if they are moving on from their team.

Kyrie will not be doing the Celtics any favors by agreeing to a sign and trade. Boston won't be doing Kyrie any favor by sign and trading him so he can go play for a team he wants to go to but doesn't have the cap space to sign him.

It comes down to Kyrie will either sign here for a five year deal, or he will sign elsewhere for 4 years somewhere else. That is really the only options with Kyrie this off season.

Eh, if he wanted to I'm sure he could get some team to do a Durant-style 1-and-1 or 2-and-1.

He seems to like to follow in LeBron's footsteps, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's the way he decides to go.  Complain a ton about free agency questions but make it so he's always on the verge of free agency so he never has to be fully committed to a team long term.

[nickagneta]

I wonder if kyrie would be willing to do a sign and trade.
If he is the only possibilities I see are :
Houston for Gordon or Paul
Detroit for Jackson plus picks or Drummond

1.) He's not going to either of those teams. I'll eat my shirt if he does.
2.) Why should he do a sign and trade? He'd get nothing out of it.

yes...and the new team he goes to would weaken

but he would get an extra year salary and provide the Celts a nice farewell gift

Gotta read that link I provided you triboy. No more extra years on sign and trades.