Author Topic: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"  (Read 26300 times)

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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2015, 11:43:43 AM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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Anyone else think Sully is turning into Walker?

Although Sully has maybe an inch and definitely a few pounds, they are/were both really pf's who could shoot the 3. With Sully shooting in the low 40's I feel like he's getting the Toine running through him which has him taking more low percentage 3's than low post or inside 10 footers.

I really like Sully despite his flaws but I'm afraid he could very well have a break out year and command a ridiculous contract then regress/ get lazy.
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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2015, 11:48:13 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Toine was much better at basketball.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2015, 11:51:33 AM »

Offline Kane3387

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Of course Ainge later reacquired walker for half a year and a playoff run and then did a sign and trade to help him get the most $ from Miami so whatever


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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2015, 12:15:02 PM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

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It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol ;D. I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha ;D. Those picks would have been gold.
i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.

Well, if Ainge had drafted better, we never would have been in that position in the first place, imo, and yes, it was the wrong thing to do, but again, that's only my view.  I just can't see Red ever doing something like that - he was far too loyal.

As for Wallace ultimately netting us Lee - woo, lol ::) ;D.

Criticizing the trade that brought Wallace here is bold. You're aware that other elements were involved, correct? That deal is likely to go down as one of the great heists in NBA history, when all is said and done.

Yes, I'm aware of the draft picks, but at the same time, we're now headed into year 3 of the rebuild, and I have yet to see any kind of vision or plan in place other than waiting for some team to stupidly make their superstar(s) available.  What we're in right now is a holding pattern, and I'd be more hopeful about said draft selections if Danny had a good-to-great track record when it comes to drafting, which he does not.  Besides, what if those picks never materialize into anything but mid first rounders?  How would you feel at that point?

I'd feel good. It'd still be excellent value for what they traded away. But I sincerely doubt they'll be mid-tier picks. The Nets are not making the playoffs next year, and that's just the beginning of the road. Put more bluntly, Wallace's contract had had zero effect on the Cs, other than to help net them a sick ransom. So you're just dead wrong.

As for your assessment of Ainge's draft record, I really don't think you have the first clue what you're talking about. Ainge has had misses, yes. But he's also had some pretty serious hits, and he's never drafted higher that 6th, I believe -- he had the 5th pick in 2007 but traded it for Ray Allen. Outside of RC Buford (golden God), considering where he's had his picks he looks pretty strong against virtually any GM, and is far better than many.

Where do you think they'll end up for next year, then?  13 or so?  I just think that it's impossible to get equal value for legends, no matter how old they are, and Wallace's contract just seemed like a weight, quite honestly, but what am I dead wrong about, again?

Also, I think that we're going to save ourselves a lot of time and effort if we just agree to disagree about his drafting record, lol ;D, as I've well documented my position on this in the past in numerous threads.  Not necessarily with you, but I just thought that I'd point that out.  If you read over the stuff I'm pretty sure that you'd draw the same conclusion about me as most people do on here - I'm crazy ::), haha ;D. No big deal.  Don't get me wrong, I hope that it all works out, but I'm also a pessimist, so I'm not exactly looking forward to the prospect of seeing us rely on more ping pong balls, lol ;D. Ugh.

You're dead wrong in attaching any negative significance to Wallace's presence and contract. It was a) essential for the deal to be made (like Bogans), and b) the price of doing business. A trade is not one-sided. For The Celtics to get what they wanted (the mountain of picks) they had to take something The Nets wanted to give up. That was Gerald Wallace and his large contract. As The Celtics were going all in on rebuilding eeking out the cap space to sign a few veterans was irrelevant. The willingness to take on Wallace's contract (who btw was nothing but a positive influence on the youth movement) is what facilitated that deal in both salary matching and in motivation from The Nets (obviously they desired PP and KG as a main motivation, players The Celtics could not give up without taking back salary --- in the form of GW).

Kill the deal as a whole if you want but to isolate Gerald Wallace and make that the key element or principal pillar of that deal is either misguided or disingenuous.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2015, 12:40:54 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Toine was much better at basketball.

Agree.

Quote
Anyone else think Sully is turning into Walker?

Although Sully has maybe an inch and definitely a few pounds, they are/were both really pf's who could shoot the 3. With Sully shooting in the low 40's I feel like he's getting the Toine running through him which has him taking more low percentage 3's than low post or inside 10 footers.

I really like Sully despite his flaws but I'm afraid he could very well have a break out year and command a ridiculous contract then regress/ get lazy

Truth be told, Sully can't shoot threes but he rarely makes them.  AW was never a great three point shooter either while here and is a career  .32.5% from there.  Sully is .275%.   So both can physically shoot that shot but I would not call either of them a good shooter from there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkean02.html

Field goal wise both suffer because of their tendency to take shots that they are not particularly good at.

The area they are most similar is that both think they are better than what they are and thought they could pig out.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2015, 12:52:25 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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^ Good points, but I would say that it would be very hard to find an NBA athlete that doesn't think they're better than they are.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2015, 12:54:02 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Quote
Toine was much better at basketball.

Agree.

Quote
Anyone else think Sully is turning into Walker?

Although Sully has maybe an inch and definitely a few pounds, they are/were both really pf's who could shoot the 3. With Sully shooting in the low 40's I feel like he's getting the Toine running through him which has him taking more low percentage 3's than low post or inside 10 footers.

I really like Sully despite his flaws but I'm afraid he could very well have a break out year and command a ridiculous contract then regress/ get lazy

Truth be told, Sully can't shoot threes but he rarely makes them.  AW was never a great three point shooter either while here and is a career  .32.5% from there.  Sully is .275%.   So both can physically shoot that shot but I would not call either of them a good shooter from there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkean02.html

Field goal wise both suffer because of their tendency to take shots that they are not particularly good at.

The area they are most similar is that both think they are better than what they are and thought they could pig out.

If Sully ever becomes a multiple time all-star, leads the team to several solid playoff runs, and is the vocal / energetic leader of this team, I will be psyched. Right now he will be lucky to have a Danny Fortson type career.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2015, 01:33:36 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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I think people may not be seeing that this article is from 2003 - not too long after the first trade, where I agree with Antoine. Raef was a terrible return and his contract and injury history left a lot to be desired.

I believe Danny had control issues in his first couple of years in Boston. When he traded back for Antoine is when I think he became a good GM - doing what was best for the team rather than showing who was boss.


'Toine was obviously emotionally hurt as he had become the face of the franchise-albeit Pierce had emerged into this role soon after arrival. 
Walker had envisioned being part of the Celtic lore-perhaps having his number raised to the rafters one day.  Ainge dashed those hopes.  Clearly, 'Toine and his agent were told things and were surprised by the trade. 
Walker and Pierce had become a powerful duo- and Raef was simply a poor return.

Auerbach, had been known to make trades-but typically was loyal to his players-helped them land in situations that were beneficial to them-oftentimes keeping them in the loop. 
Ainge did not do this in the first Walker deal.

He has matured and grown a great deal since then.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:36:41 AM by ThaPreacher »
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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2015, 01:45:14 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I think the first Walker trade may be Ainge's worst trade. He is not alone in doing a bad move at the start of a tenure, a lot of the worst moves made occur when a new management group takes over and wants to put their stamp on the team (if you follow baseball check out the Padre's offseason and their results this year).  New owners/GMs fire good manager's or trade good players because they are not "their guy" and end up worse for it.

If Ainge had exercised a little of the patience that he now regularly shows, I find it really doubtful that he could not get a better player than Raef at some point for Walker especially part way through the season to a contending team. If he could not, he would have been better off just letting walker's contract expire. Additionally, it seems like we also gave up the second best player in the deal in Tony Delk was also a good offensive guard off the bench that was in his prime at 29 years old.

In the stories surounding this deal Ainge also said how important Jiri Welsch was for the getting the deal done. While we did flip Welsch for a first (http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=2771)

Ainge clearly misjudged his talent too.



Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2015, 03:51:39 PM »

Offline 33_Larry Legend_33

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The label I'd put on Antoine would be "frustrating"...

He could do so much, but then again, he'd often just frustrate the daylights out of you.  On any given night he could be Karl Malone - just going strong to the rim, with outstanding low-post moves.  His vision was amazing, sometimes he even looked like Magic Johnson on the floor.  But then he'd stand outside and just chuck 3 after 3...

I honestly think part of his problem was Rick Pitino.  I'm not sure it's good for a guy to be coached in the pros by the same guy who coached him in college.  I think the two of them wore on each other. 

Personally, I actually liked Antoine.  But for all he did good, he brought so much ugliness to the table.  Passionate.  Unique skills.  But ultimately, frustrating to watch.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2015, 04:20:36 PM »

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I look back on the Antoine days fondly.  Yes, he was flawed.  When he and Pierce got it going, though, the Celtics were a lot of fun to watch.

I wonder, in an alternative history, what happens if the Celts don't botch the 2001 draft.  If we'd just ignored the Kedrick Brown nonsense and focused on the conventional wisdom of who we should have taken, we're looking at:

Vitali Potapenko / Tony Battie
Antoine Walker / Troy Murphy
Paul Pierce / Eric Williams / Waltah!
Joe Johnson
Tony Parker / Kenny Anderson

Even after all of Pitino's missteps, that team could have made the Finals.

Anyway, Antoine was mostly wrong in his assessment of Danny, but he was right that trading him for Raef LaFrentz was a huge miscalculation.  When you trade your franchise star -- even a flawed one -- you hope to get a building block, rather than somebody where you have to sacrifice a lottery pick just to get rid of their contract.


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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2015, 04:21:34 PM »

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The label I'd put on Antoine would be "frustrating"...

He could do so much, but then again, he'd often just frustrate the daylights out of you.  On any given night he could be Karl Malone - just going strong to the rim, with outstanding low-post moves.  His vision was amazing, sometimes he even looked like Magic Johnson on the floor.  But then he'd stand outside and just chuck 3 after 3...

I honestly think part of his problem was Rick Pitino.  I'm not sure it's good for a guy to be coached in the pros by the same guy who coached him in college.  I think the two of them wore on each other. 

Personally, I actually liked Antoine.  But for all he did good, he brought so much ugliness to the table.  Passionate.  Unique skills.  But ultimately, frustrating to watch.

If we were going to lay blame at a coach for the evolvement of Walker as a player why not start with ML Carr. As a whole I don't put a whole lot of stock in this "team culture" and "culture of winning stuff", but when I do Antoine Walker and ML Carr are two of the first people I think of. I think toine would have possibly had a very different career if he came into a system with a few veterans trying to be competitive instead of one of the few teams to ever admit outright tanking. You think Stevens his rookie year wouldn't have had a difference than "roll the ball out and do what you want" Carr?

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Anyway, Antoine was mostly wrong in his assessment of Danny, but he was right that trading him for Raef LaFrentz was a huge miscalculation.  When you trade your franchise star -- even a flawed one -- you hope to get a building block, rather than somebody where you have to sacrifice a lottery pick just to get rid of their contract.
A healthy Raef LaFrenz is pretty darn good. The problem was he wasn't healthy.
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Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2015, 04:46:36 PM »

Offline 33_Larry Legend_33

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The label I'd put on Antoine would be "frustrating"...

He could do so much, but then again, he'd often just frustrate the daylights out of you.  On any given night he could be Karl Malone - just going strong to the rim, with outstanding low-post moves.  His vision was amazing, sometimes he even looked like Magic Johnson on the floor.  But then he'd stand outside and just chuck 3 after 3...

I honestly think part of his problem was Rick Pitino.  I'm not sure it's good for a guy to be coached in the pros by the same guy who coached him in college.  I think the two of them wore on each other. 

Personally, I actually liked Antoine.  But for all he did good, he brought so much ugliness to the table.  Passionate.  Unique skills.  But ultimately, frustrating to watch.

If we were going to lay blame at a coach for the evolvement of Walker as a player why not start with ML Carr. As a whole I don't put a whole lot of stock in this "team culture" and "culture of winning stuff", but when I do Antoine Walker and ML Carr are two of the first people I think of. I think toine would have possibly had a very different career if he came into a system with a few veterans trying to be competitive instead of one of the few teams to ever admit outright tanking. You think Stevens his rookie year wouldn't have had a difference than "roll the ball out and do what you want" Carr?

ML Carr was a sacrificial lamb.  And it was THE DUMBEST thing the Celtics ever did in my lifetime (of which I started watching basketball when I was around 8-10 yrs old in 1980).  ML wasn't a coach nor a GM, but a PR guy.  Bias dies...but the C's still at least have something to move forward with.  But in 92 Larry retires.  93 Reggie dies and McHale retires.  94 is Parish's last season.  95 is the Dominique season.  And it just went downhill fast from there.  The Celtics bring in Antoine and they should have immediately hired a coach...  But no, they let this thing run a foolish course of stupidity.  Then the Pitino hiring.  And I'm sure Antoine was probably spinning, and also angry.  I saw KY play live a few times as I lived there (work-related) during the Walker era.  All he wanted to do was win.  But he came to the Celtics in a time in which they didn't care about winning...  So yes, what you're saying is totally legit, and it's sad this all came out the way it did.  In many ways, this whole saga ruined Antoine.

Re: A classic read: "Danny is a snake"
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2015, 05:10:05 PM »

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The label I'd put on Antoine would be "frustrating"...

He could do so much, but then again, he'd often just frustrate the daylights out of you.  On any given night he could be Karl Malone - just going strong to the rim, with outstanding low-post moves.  His vision was amazing, sometimes he even looked like Magic Johnson on the floor.  But then he'd stand outside and just chuck 3 after 3...

I honestly think part of his problem was Rick Pitino.  I'm not sure it's good for a guy to be coached in the pros by the same guy who coached him in college.  I think the two of them wore on each other. 

Personally, I actually liked Antoine.  But for all he did good, he brought so much ugliness to the table.  Passionate.  Unique skills.  But ultimately, frustrating to watch.

If we were going to lay blame at a coach for the evolvement of Walker as a player why not start with ML Carr. As a whole I don't put a whole lot of stock in this "team culture" and "culture of winning stuff", but when I do Antoine Walker and ML Carr are two of the first people I think of. I think toine would have possibly had a very different career if he came into a system with a few veterans trying to be competitive instead of one of the few teams to ever admit outright tanking. You think Stevens his rookie year wouldn't have had a difference than "roll the ball out and do what you want" Carr?

ML Carr was a sacrificial lamb.  And it was THE DUMBEST thing the Celtics ever did in my lifetime (of which I started watching basketball when I was around 8-10 yrs old in 1980).  ML wasn't a coach nor a GM, but a PR guy.  Bias dies...but the C's still at least have something to move forward with.  But in 92 Larry retires.  93 Reggie dies and McHale retires.  94 is Parish's last season.  95 is the Dominique season.  And it just went downhill fast from there.  The Celtics bring in Antoine and they should have immediately hired a coach...  But no, they let this thing run a foolish course of stupidity.  Then the Pitino hiring.  And I'm sure Antoine was probably spinning, and also angry.  I saw KY play live a few times as I lived there (work-related) during the Walker era.  All he wanted to do was win.  But he came to the Celtics in a time in which they didn't care about winning...  So yes, what you're saying is totally legit, and it's sad this all came out the way it did.  In many ways, this whole saga ruined Antoine.

related to this, found this article analyzing some of ML Carr's moves as GM http://www.celticslife.com/2009/09/was-ml-carr-that-bad.html