Revisiting the 2016 Draft

[moiso]

Simmons and Embiid should be able to play together.  It seems like an excuse to blame the Embiid pairing for Simmons not being a great player.  I don't think it makes 100% sense to think he'd be better off with Brook Lopez than the best center in the league.  Since Magic Johnson was brought up, nobody wanted to get rid of Kareem to make room for Magic on the court.  If Simmons is a point guard like he says he is, he should be able to play with Embiid, who takes plenty of 3's himself.  Some people are claiming that they both need the same space on the court but Embiid is on the perimeter a lot of the time.  Simmons has every opportunity to get in the paint.

[W8ting2McHale]

I don’t remember Kareem hurting Magic’s game, how is Embiid hurting Simmons?

If anything he should be inflating his assist numbers, shouldn’t he? Simmons is doing just fine rebounding, so Embiid isn’t pulling down his numbers there. Simmons adding a 3 point shot would help Embiid as much as Simmons, wouldn’t it?

It’s entirely on him to do it, but it seems like his ego as much as anything won’t allow him to. Magic added the 3 when the game started to demand it. He didn’t need it before.

* yes to what Moiso said above *

[celticsclay]

Pretty sure if Toronto offered Siakam for Simmons Brett Brown is driving him to the airport. I feel like people are fairly oblivious that Simmons hasn't developed at all on the offensive end. He shows no improvement from foul line, no willingness to take jumpers and is averaging a career high in turnovers. These are things that players work on improve (look at Brown from ft).

That is probably correct, though it doesn't mean Siakam is better or has more value than Simmons.  That would more a reflection of the poor fit that Simmons is with Embiid.

Where would Simmons fit best? I'm not sure who.

Simmons is a unique talent.  A team probably needs to be designed around him.  Pretty similar to what the Bucks have done around Giannis.  Simmons needs a team that will run and with shooters.  I think you give him that type of environment and the sky is the limit on what he can be.  He is an excellent defender.  He handles well.  He rebounds and passes at an elite level.  He scores highly efficiently in the paint.  Obviously not a shooter, but he doesn't need to be in the right situation.  That just isn't Philly though.  He is not a great mix with Embiid.  They occupy the same space and are both better with shooters around them.

I don’t get how we can just gloss over his non-shooting and refusal to even take long jumpers. Giannis has worked on his shot to the point he can take 5 a game now and hit them at a 34% clip. It has completely changed his game and ceiling as well as the success of the team. If Simmons and Giannis switched places the bucks would go from a 65 win team to a 45 win team instantly. Why build around someone for a 45 win team?

I never suggested Simmons and Giannis could just switch places.  I said Simmons would need a team built around his strengths to be fully successful in much the same way the Bucks built their team around Giannis (or the Magic built around Shaq and then Dwight or the Cavs around Lebron, or countless other teams in history have built a team around the strengths of their players). 

If Simmons was playing PF, would people have the same concern about his shooting?  I mean that honestly.  If he was playing down low more and taking all of those good shots with his normal TS% in the 58% range, would it be as much a deal.  I don't think so.  And let's be clear the guy that Simmons most resembles in Magic Johnson who didn't even take 45 3's in a season until his 9th year in the league.  I get the game is much more 3 centric these days than the 80's, but how could Magic Johnson become the greatest PG ever with terrible shooting for almost his entire career if the 3 is the be all and end all?

Simmons quite simply is on a team built around player that isn't a good fit for Simmons.  It has seriously hampered his growth and I'm not really sure Brown has down a good job for Simmons in that regard.  I actually think that is what is going to get him fired at the end of the day, because I do think he is a quality coach, he just doesn't know what to do with Simmons.  Now maybe behind the scenes Simmons is the problem, but if that is the case, then Philly should move on from him and the fact that they haven't (and gave him that huge extension), tells me that it probably isn't Simmons, and more just a bad roster fit that they think may work itself out somehow.

I think you kind of answered your own question. If Ben Simmons played in the eighties and early 90’s when magic did his shooting wouldn’t be the issue it is. Unfortunately for him, he plays now when even lumbering bigs like brook Lopez and baynes can stretch a defense. It is also quite frankly bizarre he has been unable to even make a modest improvement in his range in 3 years in the league. This suggests to me he is arrogant or lazy, perhaps both.

Here is the thing about Moranis' suggestion. As much as it might be best for Simmons to have a team built around him to bring out the best in him, much like Milwaukee did with Giannis, that's probably not best for any team that has Simmons on it. You are limiting the top end potential of that team because, to put it nicely, Simmons is no Giannis.

Simmons upside best just isn't good enough to warrant building a team around him. Way too many shortcomings, and quite frankly, I think Moranis is painting some of his other skills in a very favorable light.

I mean, you would never even suggest to build a team around a young Rondo and I see Simmons as being very similar type player....only 4-5 inches taller.

Well said Nick. This is how I feel a hundred percent we are not sitting here talking about building a franchise around buddy hield, Ingram or
Brown. Right now Simmons is not out performing those guys. At a certain point it is irrelevant he was drafted number 1

[Moranis]

A team built to suit Ben Simmons should be a team where Simmons is the sole paint player on the floor. That means he needs to play next to a stretch five (like a Brook Lopez). It should also be on a team without a ball dominant perimeter player (such as Harden). An offense more similar to Boston or Golden State. More ball movement and multiple threats. And the 4 other players on the floor with Simmons should all be 3 point shooters.

The more time Simmons can play in the paint the more effective he can be offensively. The less destructive his lack of a jump-shot can be on his teams.

I could see Simmons playing as a PG and initiating the offense before handing it off to the wing players or, more likely, as a playmaking PF. A lot of elbow touches, dribble hand offs, some PnRs, post up opportunities.

In such a scenario, Simmons could be quite effective offensively which in addition to his defensive value & possession creation would make him a very valuable individual player. Simmons could be the best player on such a team (contending team) or more likely the second best player.

This is what I was getting at.  Simmons doesn't have to be the best player on the team, it just has to fit him.  I was actually thinking him having Capela's role on a team like the Rockets would suit his skill set pretty well.  I think he could play next to Jokic on the Nuggets also.  For some lesser teams, how good would Simmons be on a team like the Kings?  I think he would be awesome playing in that Holmes role.  He would elevate the Kings into the upper echelon (if they get Fox back healthy).  Fox, Hield, Barnes, Simmons, Bjelica is a fantastic starting 5. 

[celticsclay]

A team built to suit Ben Simmons should be a team where Simmons is the sole paint player on the floor. That means he needs to play next to a stretch five (like a Brook Lopez). It should also be on a team without a ball dominant perimeter player (such as Harden). An offense more similar to Boston or Golden State. More ball movement and multiple threats. And the 4 other players on the floor with Simmons should all be 3 point shooters.

The more time Simmons can play in the paint the more effective he can be offensively. The less destructive his lack of a jump-shot can be on his teams.

I could see Simmons playing as a PG and initiating the offense before handing it off to the wing players or, more likely, as a playmaking PF. A lot of elbow touches, dribble hand offs, some PnRs, post up opportunities.

In such a scenario, Simmons could be quite effective offensively which in addition to his defensive value & possession creation would make him a very valuable individual player. Simmons could be the best player on such a team (contending team) or more likely the second best player.

This is what I was getting at.  Simmons doesn't have to be the best player on the team, it just has to fit him.  I was actually thinking him having Capela's role on a team like the Rockets would suit his skill set pretty well.  I think he could play next to Jokic on the Nuggets also.  For some lesser teams, how good would Simmons be on a team like the Kings?  I think he would be awesome playing in that Holmes role.  He would elevate the Kings into the upper echelon (if they get Fox back healthy).  Fox, Hield, Barnes, Simmons, Bjelica is a fantastic starting 5.

The problem with this is you are just creating ridiculous scenarios with no regard to the fact that Simmons is about to be on a max contract. How are you adding him to the Kings with fox, hield, Barnes, ariza and Dedmon all under contract. How are the rockets adding him to harden and Westbrook (And Gordon and tucker?). We can all come up with fantasy situations where we just add jaylen brown to a team with lots of talent and no regard for his salary, but why would we do that?

[smokeablount]

A team built to suit Ben Simmons should be a team where Simmons is the sole paint player on the floor. That means he needs to play next to a stretch five (like a Brook Lopez). It should also be on a team without a ball dominant perimeter player (such as Harden). An offense more similar to Boston or Golden State. More ball movement and multiple threats. And the 4 other players on the floor with Simmons should all be 3 point shooters.

The more time Simmons can play in the paint the more effective he can be offensively. The less destructive his lack of a jump-shot can be on his teams.

I could see Simmons playing as a PG and initiating the offense before handing it off to the wing players or, more likely, as a playmaking PF. A lot of elbow touches, dribble hand offs, some PnRs, post up opportunities.

In such a scenario, Simmons could be quite effective offensively which in addition to his defensive value & possession creation would make him a very valuable individual player. Simmons could be the best player on such a team (contending team) or more likely the second best player.

This is what I was getting at.  Simmons doesn't have to be the best player on the team, it just has to fit him.  I was actually thinking him having Capela's role on a team like the Rockets would suit his skill set pretty well.  I think he could play next to Jokic on the Nuggets also.  For some lesser teams, how good would Simmons be on a team like the Kings?  I think he would be awesome playing in that Holmes role.  He would elevate the Kings into the upper echelon (if they get Fox back healthy).  Fox, Hield, Barnes, Simmons, Bjelica is a fantastic starting 5.

The problem with this is you are just creating ridiculous scenarios with no regard to the fact that Simmons is about to be on a max contract. How are you adding him to the Kings with fox, hield, Barnes, ariza and Dedmon all under contract. How are the rockets adding him to harden and Westbrook (And Gordon and tucker?). We can all come up with fantasy situations where we just add jaylen brown to a team with lots of talent and no regard for his salary, but why would we do that?

TP, and aside from salary, how in this example do the Kings get Simmons without giving up even 1 starter when he isn’t a FA? Are we suggesting Simmons isn’t even worth a core player on Sac and at the same time that he should somehow go #1 in a redraft with such low value, or just making up excuses and fantasy scenarios?

[Somebody]

I don’t remember Kareem hurting Magic’s game, how is Embiid hurting Simmons?

If anything he should be inflating his assist numbers, shouldn’t he? Simmons is doing just fine rebounding, so Embiid isn’t pulling down his numbers there. Simmons adding a 3 point shot would help Embiid as much as Simmons, wouldn’t it?

It’s entirely on him to do it, but it seems like his ego as much as anything won’t allow him to. Magic added the 3 when the game started to demand it. He didn’t need it before.

* yes to what Moiso said above *

Kareem and Magic are in a different universe offensively compared to Embiid and Simmons though. You're comparing one of the finest offensive engines and one of the holy duo of offensive big man centrepieces to a fringe MVP calibre big man who derives a lot of value from defence and a big forward who's inept at generating half court offence.

[Androslav]

Siakam/Brown is a tossup for me.

Big versatile wings on offense that play defense.

Siakam is 2 years and 7 months older.

[A Future of Stevens]

I have never understood why the Sixers are trying to make Simmons something he isn't. They want him to be Magic, when his playstyle is Lebron light without the scoring. Even Lebron benefits from not being the only PG. Simmons should punish other PFs and destroy teams with his level of playmaking from the post and facing up. Granted him + Embiid down low is cramped, but they already play both players anyway.

[Moranis]

A team built to suit Ben Simmons should be a team where Simmons is the sole paint player on the floor. That means he needs to play next to a stretch five (like a Brook Lopez). It should also be on a team without a ball dominant perimeter player (such as Harden). An offense more similar to Boston or Golden State. More ball movement and multiple threats. And the 4 other players on the floor with Simmons should all be 3 point shooters.

The more time Simmons can play in the paint the more effective he can be offensively. The less destructive his lack of a jump-shot can be on his teams.

I could see Simmons playing as a PG and initiating the offense before handing it off to the wing players or, more likely, as a playmaking PF. A lot of elbow touches, dribble hand offs, some PnRs, post up opportunities.

In such a scenario, Simmons could be quite effective offensively which in addition to his defensive value & possession creation would make him a very valuable individual player. Simmons could be the best player on such a team (contending team) or more likely the second best player.

This is what I was getting at.  Simmons doesn't have to be the best player on the team, it just has to fit him.  I was actually thinking him having Capela's role on a team like the Rockets would suit his skill set pretty well.  I think he could play next to Jokic on the Nuggets also.  For some lesser teams, how good would Simmons be on a team like the Kings?  I think he would be awesome playing in that Holmes role.  He would elevate the Kings into the upper echelon (if they get Fox back healthy).  Fox, Hield, Barnes, Simmons, Bjelica is a fantastic starting 5.

The problem with this is you are just creating ridiculous scenarios with no regard to the fact that Simmons is about to be on a max contract. How are you adding him to the Kings with fox, hield, Barnes, ariza and Dedmon all under contract. How are the rockets adding him to harden and Westbrook (And Gordon and tucker?). We can all come up with fantasy situations where we just add jaylen brown to a team with lots of talent and no regard for his salary, but why would we do that?

I was using those as an example of situations where Simmons would fit and work well to maximize his potential.  I wasn't trying to build a team.  Obviously you can't just put Simmons on other teams.  The point I was making is, that the Sixers quite simply have mismanaged Simmons.  They are trying to make a square peg into a round hole, rather than putting him into a situation that would best utilize his skills.  This happens all of the time with players, they just aren't usually the 1st pick in the draft with unique skill sets.  If the Sixers did a better job of crafting the team they wouldn't have this problem, but they really mismanaged the rebuild, which isn't surprising since Colangelo mismanages everything.  And they have known that Embiid and Simmons don't work well for 3 years.  They needed to address that issue before now.  I do really think they should have tried to trade Simmons for Davis (or Irving or George in prior summers) or some other win now type trade like that.  They keep just hoping that something is going to change with Simmons/Embiid and it just hasn't and probably won't.  That is why I do think unless they make the Finals, they are going to let Brown go, because maybe a different coach can figure something out better with those 2 than Brown has.

[Fafnir]

I don’t remember Kareem hurting Magic’s game, how is Embiid hurting Simmons?

If anything he should be inflating his assist numbers, shouldn’t he? Simmons is doing just fine rebounding, so Embiid isn’t pulling down his numbers there. Simmons adding a 3 point shot would help Embiid as much as Simmons, wouldn’t it?

It’s entirely on him to do it, but it seems like his ego as much as anything won’t allow him to. Magic added the 3 when the game started to demand it. He didn’t need it before.

* yes to what Moiso said above *

Kareem and Magic are in a different universe offensively compared to Embiid and Simmons though. You're comparing one of the finest offensive engines and one of the holy duo of offensive big man centrepieces to a fringe MVP calibre big man who derives a lot of value from defence and a big forward who's inept at generating half court offence.

Its also that the league plays much better defense, is allowed to play more effective defense in the paint, is allowed to play less effective defense on the perimeter, and now punishes non shooters much more aggressively.

[Somebody]

I don’t remember Kareem hurting Magic’s game, how is Embiid hurting Simmons?

If anything he should be inflating his assist numbers, shouldn’t he? Simmons is doing just fine rebounding, so Embiid isn’t pulling down his numbers there. Simmons adding a 3 point shot would help Embiid as much as Simmons, wouldn’t it?

It’s entirely on him to do it, but it seems like his ego as much as anything won’t allow him to. Magic added the 3 when the game started to demand it. He didn’t need it before.

* yes to what Moiso said above *

Kareem and Magic are in a different universe offensively compared to Embiid and Simmons though. You're comparing one of the finest offensive engines and one of the holy duo of offensive big man centrepieces to a fringe MVP calibre big man who derives a lot of value from defence and a big forward who's inept at generating half court offence.

Its also that the league plays much better defense, is allowed to play more effective defense in the paint, is allowed to play less effective defense on the perimeter, and now punishes non shooters much more aggressively.

For sure, but we're going with impact by era no? Magic and Kareem have much larger statistical footprints (even in +/- studies), ntm that they're much better than Simmons and Embiid on offence even if you go by the eye test. Magic was an awesome half court creator even in his first few seasons (Simmons is pretty inept at half court creation), while Kareem's skyhook+basic post counters and passing far trump whatever offensive skills Embiid has.

[Fafnir]

For sure, but we're going with impact by era no?

No we're not. We're talking about how two players can fit together. In the 80s it wasn't rare or particularly damaging to have 2 or sometimes 3 non-shooters (or poor shooters) on the floor.

No one was using the 3 point shot as a true weapon to warp the court or punish teams. Having two post or paint players was normal and didn't strangle your offense. So cross era comparisons to duos that complimented each other are meaningless no matter how you evaluate the players respective value.

[Somebody]

For sure, but we're going with impact by era no?

No we're not. We're talking about how two players can fit together. In the 80s it wasn't rare or particularly damaging to have 2 or sometimes 3 non-shooters (or poor shooters) on the floor.

No one was using the 3 point shot as a true weapon to warp the court or punish teams. Having two post or paint players was normal and didn't strangle your offense. So cross era comparisons to duos that complimented each other are meaningless no matter how you evaluate the players respective value.

Oh okay. Still doesn't change what I said about their skillsets, Magic and Kareem would still be a better fitting duo than Simmons and Embiid in the modern NBA simply due to the massive gap between Magic and Simmons in terms of half court offence as well as the disparity in passing between Kareem and Embiid. One more thing to note is that Magic was a strong outside shooter by the late 80s/early 90s when he was still very much in his prime, which bodes well for his game scaling to the modern NBA.

[Moranis]

Today against the Bucks is what Simmons is capable of.  15 points on 7 of 10 shooting (1 of 2 from line), with 14 assists, 7 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks, and just 2 turnovers.  I think if he was on a roster more suited to him, he would pretty consistently have those type of lines.  He just needs to be on a team where the primary scorer is a better fit with him.