Poll

What should the Celtics do this summer?

Bring back the same team.  Add mediocre help with MLE..
25 (53.2%)
Go after Deron Williams.
13 (27.7%)
Blow it up and target restricted free agents (OJ Mayo, for example)
9 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?  (Read 30230 times)

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Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2012, 10:19:06 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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We have a good deal with Rondo,  that good deal in terms of money should be put toward a top 5 or 10 active Center where we need  help so bad.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2012, 10:34:32 AM »

Offline chambers

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I wouldn't be upset if we got Deron, but I'm not sure if we need to get him.
Rondo is consistently improving, and his contract is very friendly. I would actually say no to the Deron pursuit unless it meant we could get Howard with him.
Rondo's jumpshot is just getting better and better and it makes me think *hope* that he can improve his free throw shooting to somewhere around 75%.
I think that if Rondo did this, he becomes the better player.
I think it's close now, but Deron has the edge- I don't see Deron improving much, but I feel Rondo might only be 75 to 80% of what he could realistically achieve as a player and utilize as a skill set.



Right now, Deron is better because of his jump shot and offense is always more valuable in the NBA than defense- his strength in the pick and roll is on par with Chris Paul and Nash.
Rondo is faster, a better defender, is a better passer and has a higher bball IQ but his shooting, attitude fluctuations and the need for good shooters around him to make him truly effective limit him- I also beleive that Deron (or anyone for that matter apart from Nash) wouldn't be able to find those shooters as well as Rondo does so it's a give/take situation.

Edge goes to Deron right now, but Rondo's value and his potential are greater in my opinion.
Magic Johnson thinks Rondo is the best PG in the league but to the guy who just said 'Deron can't even get the Nets out of being a lottery team', do you honestly think that Rondo could get that pathetic line up out of the bottom 4 teams too? Highly unlikely, the Nets suck and if Deron goes to the Mavericks you'll see him shine.
I say that I wouldn't pursue Deron BUT taking Larbrd33's intent into consideration
 If I knew I could get him and trade Rondo for a superstar I have to pull the trigger. Ie: get Deron, go after Dwight. If that fails go after Gasol hard. The inside outside tandem would just be nasty.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 10:41:04 AM by chambers »
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2012, 10:46:54 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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I don't know if this point has already been made, but the problem with signing Deron Williams is that we can say with a pretty high level of certainty that Rondo doesn't have much trade value around the league.  You know that Danny was letting teams know he was available; he wasn't getting terribly good offers (if he did, Rondo would be gone right now). 

Then, add in the fact that teams are going to know that Danny would be desperate to move Rondo.

So yeah, you *might* incrementally improve the team by signing Deron.  You're going to have to get rid of Rondo, and I really don't think you're going to get all that much for him. 

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2012, 10:47:41 AM »

Offline alajet

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Well, the topic asks about the offer. It's not a direct comparison between point guards. Topic holder just asks whether you would, as a GM, consider going after Deron or not.
The answer is simple. Of course, you would. And surely, DA will try to make a move in that direction. No direct indication of his lack of trust in Rondo's capabilities. In fact, if this recent stretch did not convince him about Rondo's leadership skills, nothing will. But when you see a franchise player without a contract in the market, and you have the cap space to make a move on him, you generally try to do something about it.

For me, Deron slightly outclasses Paul and Rondo is not far behind at the third spot overall. Yeah, Rose and Westbrook, in my opinion, are more of combo guards, not pure point guards as my top three, so, I could exclude them from an overall list.
So, this leads to the question of what you get in return of a possible Rajon trade. The problem is, although Rajon is nowhere near being a basketball deity, you will still end up as the losing side of a possible trade.
Names that are thrown around are simply unacceptable. Josh Smith, Mr. Inconsistency (he's having a great season, hats off to him, but anyone willing to bet on his next season production?). Cousins, well, someone demanding a trade as a sophomore. He thinks he is a superstar and he is NOT. At least, not yet.
Paul George? I love his game and he still has areas to improve. But I just can't see how a George-Rondo trade would favor our team.
A Rondo for Gasol trade rumor was flying around back in March, but I don't see it as the greatest benefit ever, either. If Rajon could have helped the team in landing a proven center (show me a good one not named Howard or Bynum), I'd immediately try to sign Deron and trade Rajon. But we know that such trade isn't quite probable to happen.

I merge this points with my logic and can say comfortably that we stick to Rajon.
But in reality, DA is going to make that offer, get rejected and Deron will probably join Dirk in Mavs next season.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2012, 10:55:43 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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No.

We already have a top-flight PG, who is getting better.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2012, 11:04:57 AM »

Offline BballTim

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 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.

  Sorry if this is hard for you to see. From your numbers, the Nets are 21st in offensive efficiency. So I guess that your claim must be that there are 20 point guards in the league that run an offense better than Deron does. Other people might consider the fact that a player's teammates might have something to do with how good the offense is.

  You're trying to claim that Deron doesn't have success because of his teammates, yet you're also claiming that how those players fare when Deron's not playing is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.  You can't have it both ways.  

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2012, 11:17:49 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Man it sure would be fun to see how well Rondo would do with Kris Humphries and Anthony Morrow as his best players, though.  I imagine more points and a lot less assists... his lack of shooting ability would bury him.

  At the beginning of the year PP was either out or playing like garbage and KG was playing like he was in his 40s. Rondo still managed to get his assists and his scoring went up by a fair amount. Historically, every time one or more of the big three go out of the lineup Rondo's stats get better. If you've got any evidence that Rondo's assists would drop with other players around him (say, younger players that could run the break with him?) I'd love to hear it. Otherwise I'll claim that your assessment of Rondo is way off.

  You keep talking about the big picture. The *real* big picture is that some people here disagree with your opinions and aren't really swayed by "I'm right because I said so" or "only a homer would disagree with me". That's especially true if you are (and you seem to be) unable to refute the argument that others make.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2012, 11:35:56 AM »

Offline alajet

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 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.

  Sorry if this is hard for you to see. From your numbers, the Nets are 21st in offensive efficiency. So I guess that your claim must be that there are 20 point guards in the league that run an offense better than Deron does. Other people might consider the fact that a player's teammates might have something to do with how good the offense is.

  You're trying to claim that Deron doesn't have success because of his teammates, yet you're also claiming that how those players fare when Deron's not playing is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.  You can't have it both ways.  

Totally agreed. It's pretty much as irrelevant as making a direct comparison between the two by looking at defensive efficiencies of their respective teams when they're on the court and making a judgement based on that.
For a team that turns the ball over and over, and gets very little out of offensive rebounds, and also plays at a very slow pace in general, I really wonder what kind of offensive efficiency number people are looking for within this system.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2012, 12:18:52 PM »

Offline Jon

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You really have to be careful who you hand out max contracts to.  Signing a guy like Williams to a max deal could work for a team that already has the #1 guy on the team (think like a Durant or Howard).  But I don't think we have that kind of guy in Rondo, so I wouldn't blow valuable cap space on a guy who in the best case is a #2 guy on a championship team.

To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

Too much risk to blow that kind of cap space.  We need to either sign a top 5-10 player in the NBA with that kind of money or build up assets so we can acquire one. 

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2012, 01:26:26 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

I don't think there's any possible way you'd make that offer to Deron Williams without a plan to trade Rondo for a big - that's just nonsensical.  At the very least, clearing out his contract to make a run for Dwight Howard in 2013.  You can't have close to $30M tied up between two point guards, and if you play them together you still haven't solved the problem of Rondo being on the floor and unable to shoot.  You can't play Rondo at the 2-guard, he's got to have the ball in his hands to do what he does best).  Deron Williams isn't going to sign here to *not* play point guard. 

And that's the problem - what appears to be a decided lack of interest in other teams who want Rondo.

So, I agree with you - it doesn't work because he's a PG.  I just don't think they would even considering making a max-offer to Williams without having a trade plan for Rondo already lined up.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2012, 02:17:45 PM »

Offline Jon

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To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

I don't think there's any possible way you'd make that offer to Deron Williams without a plan to trade Rondo for a big - that's just nonsensical.  At the very least, clearing out his contract to make a run for Dwight Howard in 2013.  You can't have close to $30M tied up between two point guards, and if you play them together you still haven't solved the problem of Rondo being on the floor and unable to shoot.  You can't play Rondo at the 2-guard, he's got to have the ball in his hands to do what he does best).  Deron Williams isn't going to sign here to *not* play point guard. 

And that's the problem - what appears to be a decided lack of interest in other teams who want Rondo.

So, I agree with you - it doesn't work because he's a PG.  I just don't think they would even considering making a max-offer to Williams without having a trade plan for Rondo already lined up.

Well, I suppose hypothetically you could use Williams at the 2 on offense and let Rondo with his long arms guard the opposing 2. 

Still, as we both said, there are just way too many problems to justify a max contract for Williams. 

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2012, 03:27:03 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote
 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2012, 03:53:06 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I don't know if this point has already been made, but the problem with signing Deron Williams is that we can say with a pretty high level of certainty that Rondo doesn't have much trade value around the league.  You know that Danny was letting teams know he was available; he wasn't getting terribly good offers (if he did, Rondo would be gone right now).  

Then, add in the fact that teams are going to know that Danny would be desperate to move Rondo.

So yeah, you *might* incrementally improve the team by signing Deron.  You're going to have to get rid of Rondo, and I really don't think you're going to get all that much for him.  
You bring up an excellent point.  All the noise surrounding the Celtics said were that they were shopping Rondo hard.  I think there is more concern with his attitude behind the scenes than they are letting on.  Unfortunately, teams outside of Boston don't see Rondo as that valuable.  Supposedly Golden State turned down trading Steph Curry for Rondo and the Lakers turned down trading an aging Pau Gasol for Rondo.  

The kind of guys Boston wanted for Rondo weren't available.   Despite this, I still think signing Deron Williams affords you the luxury of trading Rondo for a complementary piece.  Like, I think the Celtics would be have been buried this season had they traded Rondo for Josh Smith or Al Jefferson... Who would play the point guard?... but I think that's the kind of trade you could make (and the other team would do) if you already had a star PG in place (Deron)

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2012, 04:29:06 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.

Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2012, 04:36:34 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 04:42:44 PM by LarBrd33 »