25 Greatest Celtics of All-Time : #12

[2short]

JoJo
Cedric Maxwell (how could the '81 MVP and starter on the '84 team be completely overlooked so far?!)
Ramsey

I'm sorry but look at the list we have lots of hall of famers, max just isn't that good

[paintitgreen]

JoJo
Cedric Maxwell (how could the '81 MVP and starter on the '84 team be completely overlooked so far?!)
Ramsey

I'm sorry but look at the list we have lots of hall of famers, max just isn't that good

While that was a solid argument earlier, look at the list of remaining candidates - DJ, Jo Jo, Reggie, Satch and Ainge aren't Hall of Famers. Max was a starter on as many Celtic championship teams - 2 - as any of those guys except Satch. Like Jo Jo, he was a Finals MVP in Boston (over Bird). And like most of the guys on the list, he was also a very good defender, handling all the better opposing forwards for Bird during his time in Boston.

The only other Hall of Famers on the list right now are Ed Macauley, KC Jones and Frank Ramsey (and in the future Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen). Macauley won 0 titles in 6 (All Star) seasons in Boston, KC averaged only 7.4 points and 4.3 assists a game during his 9-season, 8-title (0-All Star) career alongside Russell, Sam, and Hondo, and Ramsey is often (unfairly) dismissed as a periphery (0 All Star) player on stacked teams (already featuring Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam, later Hondo).

The facts: Max played 8 seasons in green, winning two titles and a Finals MVP. He was a high quality defender, and averaged 13.7 points and 6.6 rebounds while playing with the Big Three. He also shot .559 from the field in his 8 Celtic seasons, so he didn't get a ton of shots playing with Bird, McHale, Parish, Tiny, and later DJ, but made the most of those opportunities. In 79, pre-Bird, when he was the man, he averaged 19, 10, a steal and a block while shooting a league-leading .588 from the field. In 80, alongside Bird and Tiny but before Parish and McHale, he averaged 17 and 9 with a steal and block while shooting a league-leading .609 from the field for a 61 win team.

Was he the best Celtic of his time? Not even close. Is he near the top of the all-time greats list? Absolutely not. But he belongs in this portion of the discussion. I'll still put KG, Jo Jo, DJ, KC, Ramsey, probably Satch and maybe Macauley ahead of him, but Maxwell was a pretty [dang] good Celtic who has become somewhat underrated because Bird questioned his dedication after he missed 25 games in the 85 season and Red shipped him out of town for Walton. He also might be underrated because he's never bowed down to Bird and some people are put off by his announcing and radio work (I personally love it, but I know there are strong dissents to that). 

[hardlyyardley]

if we consider kg, we MUST consider tiny archibald....there should be a minimum # years as a celtic

also no way ml or loscy belongs there over silas

[slamtheking]

JoJo
Cedric Maxwell (how could the '81 MVP and starter on the '84 team be completely overlooked so far?!)
Ramsey

I'm sorry but look at the list we have lots of hall of famers, max just isn't that good

While that was a solid argument earlier, look at the list of remaining candidates - DJ, Jo Jo, Reggie, Satch and Ainge aren't Hall of Famers. Max was a starter on as many Celtic championship teams - 2 - as any of those guys except Satch. Like Jo Jo, he was a Finals MVP in Boston (over Bird). And like most of the guys on the list, he was also a very good defender, handling all the better opposing forwards for Bird during his time in Boston.

The only other Hall of Famers on the list right now are Ed Macauley, KC Jones and Frank Ramsey (and in the future Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen). Macauley won 0 titles in 6 (All Star) seasons in Boston, KC averaged only 7.4 points and 4.3 assists a game during his 9-season, 8-title (0-All Star) career alongside Russell, Sam, and Hondo, and Ramsey is often (unfairly) dismissed as a periphery (0 All Star) player on stacked teams (already featuring Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam, later Hondo).

The facts: Max played 8 seasons in green, winning two titles and a Finals MVP. He was a high quality defender, and averaged 13.7 points and 6.6 rebounds while playing with the Big Three. He also shot .559 from the field in his 8 Celtic seasons, so he didn't get a ton of shots playing with Bird, McHale, Parish, Tiny, and later DJ, but made the most of those opportunities. In 79, pre-Bird, when he was the man, he averaged 19, 10, a steal and a block while shooting a league-leading .588 from the field. In 80, alongside Bird and Tiny but before Parish and McHale, he averaged 17 and 9 with a steal and block while shooting a league-leading .609 from the field for a 61 win team.

Was he the best Celtic of his time? Not even close. Is he near the top of the all-time greats list? Absolutely not. But he belongs in this portion of the discussion. I'll still put KG, Jo Jo, DJ, KC, Ramsey, probably Satch and maybe Macauley ahead of him, but Maxwell was a pretty [dang] good Celtic who has become somewhat underrated because Bird questioned his dedication after he missed 25 games in the 85 season and Red shipped him out of town for Walton. He also might be underrated because he's never bowed down to Bird and some people are put off by his announcing and radio work (I personally love it, but I know there are strong dissents to that). 

Excellent points to address my initial comments about the lack of love for Cornbread.  TP for you Paint.

I don’t know what planet 2short is living on to suggest Max wasn’t a terrific player but maybe his memory of Max’s playing days is “2 short” or his lifespan is “2 short” to have watched Max in his day.  Max is definitely a candidate for discussion at this point (even sooner).  His level of play and time with the team (not too mention being the bright spot pre-Bird) more than qualify him for this list.  If DJ is getting consideration for his brief time with the team and lower level of play (not only at that time in his career but also in comparison to Max’s level of play with the C’s), Max is definitely a candidate for this honor.

I rated JoJo ahead of max simply because I think he played as well or better than Max in his time in green and was more critical to the 70’s championships.  It’s a close call.

Ramsey would be 3rd at this point due to his contributions to the Russell era.  Tiny would be a reasonable option as well considering his injury in ’83 demonstrated how critical he was to the team’s success when the Bucks swept the C’s out of the playoffs when Tiny was out with an injury.

All would rate ahead of DJ, Reggie, KG and Ray due to their short their short times with the team.  If this were based on overall careers, you’d have to open up the door to so many great players that passed through the C’s roster (Maravich, Walton, Dominique, etc…) but since this is based on time with the C’s, KG and Ray have to put in another 2-3 years with another title or 2 to rank this high in the list.

[2short]

 
i watched the celtics long before max was drafted boys
to put him at the same level as jojo, dj, sharman and whoever the next top group is just is incorrrect
yes he belongs on the list but not yet, he'll be near satch sanders (who was better)
max was a good player on a bad team , then when the team got better he was a role player or at best a solid player
the c's still being listed are all stars etc
and dj and jojo belong in the hall of fame, no doubt
dj should be in the hall of fame before his # hangs from our rafters

[xmuscularghandix]

JoJo
DJ
Reggie

[paintitgreen]

if we consider kg, we MUST consider tiny archibald....there should be a minimum # years as a celtic

also no way ml or loscy belongs there over silas

I agree about Tiny, as far as I'm concerned any Celtic player is fair game. I just happen to think KG's contributions to the Celtics in two years were bigger and better than Tiny's contributions in 6. I'll definitely put him up there.

Silas is another guy I'd love to see discussed. Silas only played 4 years in Boston, from 72-73 to 75-76, but he averaged 11.5 points and 12.3 boards and made 3 All Defensive Teams and an All Star team, and those Celtics squads he started on went 238-90 (.726 win %) and won two titles in four years, making the Eastern Conference Finals each season.

That stretch is clearly underrated (the fourth best player on the 84-87 teams that also won 2 titles is about to beat out the third best player on the 73-76 teams) probably since it happened (A) between the Russell dominance and the fan favorite Bird era and (B) during the ABA era. The fact is the 60s and 80s teams had a truly transcendent star leading the way and raising the level of teammates. The 70s teams just had a bunch of very good players who played really f'n hard - Cowens, an older Havlicek, Jo Jo and Silas being the main cogs with Nellie, Chaney, and Westphal supporting - maximizing their ability. Let's not forget the 72-73 team had the best record in Celtics history (68-14) and seemed to be the clear champion before getting upset by the Knicks (who were helped by a Havlicek injury) in the ECF.

However, I don't think there should be a minimum as I've expressed before.

2short - I respect that, I think I mentioned that I'd put Max below a lot of other guys (I'm thinking around 18-20), but it's not crazy to put him in the conversation.

[slamtheking]

if we consider kg, we MUST consider tiny archibald....there should be a minimum # years as a celtic

also no way ml or loscy belongs there over silas

I agree about Tiny, as far as I'm concerned any Celtic player is fair game. I just happen to think KG's contributions to the Celtics in two years were bigger and better than Tiny's contributions in 6. I'll definitely put him up there.

Silas is another guy I'd love to see discussed. Silas only played 4 years in Boston, from 72-73 to 75-76, but he averaged 11.5 points and 12.3 boards and made 3 All Defensive Teams and an All Star team, and those Celtics squads he started on went 238-90 (.726 win %) and won two titles in four years, making the Eastern Conference Finals each season.

That stretch is clearly underrated (the fourth best player on the 84-87 teams that also won 2 titles is about to beat out the third best player on the 73-76 teams) probably since it happened (A) between the Russell dominance and the fan favorite Bird era and (B) during the ABA era. The fact is the 60s and 80s teams had a truly transcendent star leading the way and raising the level of teammates. The 70s teams just had a bunch of very good players who played really f'n hard - Cowens, an older Havlicek, Jo Jo and Silas being the main cogs with Nellie, Chaney, and Westphal supporting - maximizing their ability. Let's not forget the 72-73 team had the best record in Celtics history (68-14) and seemed to be the clear champion before getting upset by the Knicks (who were helped by a Havlicek injury) in the ECF.

However, I don't think there should be a minimum as I've expressed before.

2short - I respect that, I think I mentioned that I'd put Max below a lot of other guys (I'm thinking around 18-20), but it's not crazy to put him in the conversation.

I'm not so sure Max should even fall as low as 18-20.  Following your thought process, which is very sensible, Max was arguably the 2nd best player on the '81 team behind Bird (I think he had a better year than Chief and Tiny personally) and was definitely right there with Parish and Mchale in '84.  DJ was past his prime at that point even though he had a solid year.

I'm not discounting DJ's contributions but I think there are a few players that played longer for the C's at a higher level. 

[2short]

if we consider kg, we MUST consider tiny archibald....there should be a minimum # years as a celtic

also no way ml or loscy belongs there over silas

I agree about Tiny, as far as I'm concerned any Celtic player is fair game. I just happen to think KG's contributions to the Celtics in two years were bigger and better than Tiny's contributions in 6. I'll definitely put him up there.

Silas is another guy I'd love to see discussed. Silas only played 4 years in Boston, from 72-73 to 75-76, but he averaged 11.5 points and 12.3 boards and made 3 All Defensive Teams and an All Star team, and those Celtics squads he started on went 238-90 (.726 win %) and won two titles in four years, making the Eastern Conference Finals each season.

That stretch is clearly underrated (the fourth best player on the 84-87 teams that also won 2 titles is about to beat out the third best player on the 73-76 teams) probably since it happened (A) between the Russell dominance and the fan favorite Bird era and (B) during the ABA era. The fact is the 60s and 80s teams had a truly transcendent star leading the way and raising the level of teammates. The 70s teams just had a bunch of very good players who played really f'n hard - Cowens, an older Havlicek, Jo Jo and Silas being the main cogs with Nellie, Chaney, and Westphal supporting - maximizing their ability. Let's not forget the 72-73 team had the best record in Celtics history (68-14) and seemed to be the clear champion before getting upset by the Knicks (who were helped by a Havlicek injury) in the ECF.

However, I don't think there should be a minimum as I've expressed before.

2short - I respect that, I think I mentioned that I'd put Max below a lot of other guys (I'm thinking around 18-20), but it's not crazy to put him in the conversation.

agreed , max just mentioned a bit early at how could he be overlooked so far
one that had me shaking my head was sam jones being not on peoples lists for a long time
max will make it ,of course his broadcasts might hurt his chances 
and silas yes should get a real look
when you think of max in the 18-20 numbers makes me think antoine isn't top 20