2019 Historical: How Does My Team Look Thread

[Roy H.]

I'm going to offer some thoughts on each of the teams.  Some caveats:  I didn't watch all of these players.  I have my own biases, which I'm probably not really going to be a lot on.  I've got my own internal criteria for judging teams, which I'm probably completely inconsistent on.  For the most part, I'm going to be pretty liberal in terms of skills adjusting.  If a guy had a rangy jump shot when he played, I'm going to assume he'd be a good shooter now.  If a guy played elite defense in his era, I'm going to assume he could do it today.  So, with that said:

BOSTON
LeBron James
David Robinson
Rick Barry
Bob McAdoo
Allen Iverson
Chauncey Billups
Dwight Howard
Kevin McHale
Reggie Miller
Deron Williams

Robinson / McHale / Lebron is a heck of a combo.  I'm not completely sold on the back court in a league of all-time greats, but both Reggie and Chauncey would be able to play off of Lebron.  Every guy in the starting lineup can create his own shot while also playing off the ball.  Very solid bench, although I'm not sure if I like Deron Williams here.  He had some very good seasons, and might even belong here, but I think he lost luster as his career went on. 

Preliminary East ranking:  2nd

PHILADELPHIA
Larry Bird
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Nate "Tiny" Archibald
Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Sidney Moncrief
Jerry Lucas
Bob Lanier
Mark Aguirre

Having the top pick helps tremendously, even with the depth in this draft.  I always said that if I had the #1 pick, I'd trade down and pick one of two players:  Magic (my presumptive #1 pick) or Larry.  Those two epitomized what it meant to get the most out of teammates.  Larry easily could have hung more stats, but instead he focused on doing what was best for the team.  I think only a handful of superstars had that mentality.  So, he's the perfect type of player to build around.

Larry, though, isn't enough of a foundation to win in a league like this.  Like anybody, he needs a team around him, and I think this team is constructed almost perfectly.  Karl Malone is a rare combination of size, strength and athleticism.  Until Tim Duncan came along, he was pretty much the consensus best PF of all-time.  Filling out the front court is Ewing, who was excellent at scoring, rebounding, and defending. 

I really agree with Who's evaluation of this team.  Every single player in the starting lineup could defend.  Bob Lanier and Sidney Moncrief could be starters in this league, but both come off the bench.  Nate Archibald is a 30 / 10 microwave of a player.  The only question I have is Jerry Lucas,  because I never saw him and haven't done a ton of research on him.  However, from what I read he was a 20 / 20 guy who could shoot at an elite level.  As probably a 10th man, that's dang impressive.

I think why I really like this team is the versatility.  Larry can easily move up to PF, with Pierce at SF and Moncrief at SG.  In shifting around its lineup, the team loses nothing, which most teams can't say.  There are really no weaknesses here:  offense, defense, passing, rebounding, shooting.

Preliminary East Ranking:  1st

CHICAGO
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Willis Reed
Sam Jones
Dan Majerle
Scottie Pippen
Mitch Richmond
Bob Cousy
Rasheed Wallace

This team made two of the best value picks of the draft, Elgin Baylor and Bob Cousy.  And, it's a really strong team, but I've got to be honest:  I think they took a real step back by dealing McHale and Reggie.  As I've mentioned previously, my view of leagues like this -- where all talent is elite -- is that games are won or lost based upon mismatches.  The Duncan / McHale front court created that sort of mismatch, where any team was going to be smothered defensively going up against those two.  I think that was lost a little.  Yes, Pippen is a great defender as well, but he's not going to work in conjunction with Duncan in the same way.  I also think Elgin Baylor's role is a little confused now.  Is he slotted to play SG?  Yes, he was 6'5" (without shoes?) but he was a SF / PF.  I like him at SF, but that puts him in conflict with Scottie.  The team is still supremely talented, but I think they took a step back.

Preliminary East Ranking:  3rd

DETROIT
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
John Stockton
Elvin Hayes
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Bernard King
Pete Maravich
Michael Cooper
Al Horford

I love a lot of these players individually, but I think the team lacks a top-15 player of all-time, which really sets it back.  I like the defensive identity, but my personal belief in these leagues is that great offense is going to beat great defense.  The hope is that players will add both, but when speaking about pure defense, I don't think anybody can "shut down" the all-time greats, which is why a team needs to pack elite scoring punch to win.  I'm not sure that this team has that.

Preliminary East ranking:  6th

MIAMI
Shaquille O'Neal
Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
Paul George
Nate Thurmond
Manu Ginobili
Bobby Jones
Chris Webber
Marcus Smart
Detlef Schrempf

Shaq plus West is one of the best -- if not the best -- inside/outside duos in the league.  This team has us consider one of the great what ifs in NBA history:  what is Shaq and Webber had played together?  Would that have worked?  Orlando didn't think so, mostly due to spacing and FT shooting.  I would have loved to see that lineup in the real NBA.  In this league, would they get in each other's way?  It's a possibility, but I give it the benefit of the doubt.

I think this team had a couple of overdrafts, which leads to a very slight talent deficit, but overall a fun team to watch.

Preliminary East ranking:  5th

ATLANTA
Wilt Chamberlain
Dirk Nowitzki
Walt Frazier
Paul Westphal
Grant Hill
George Gervin
Ralph Sampson
Robert Parish
Terry Porter
Marques Johnson

This team has been a hard one for me to evaluate.  With each pick after Wilt and outside of George Gervin, I've questioned whether there was better talent on the board, whether Who was reaching a bit.  However, after 10 rounds I just really like how this team fits together.  Wilt / Dirk / Hill / Westphal / Frazier would just really fit together well as a team, and probably the right mix of talent to get the most out of Wilt.

Preliminary East ranking:  4th

LOS ANGELES
Kevin Garnett
Steph Curry
Tracey McGrady
Julius Erving
Dave Cowens
Steve Nash
Draymond Green
Artis Gilmore
Shawn Marion
Elton Brand

This team has a really smart starting lineup.  KG + Cowens would be a tenacious starting front court, and Steph Curry makes the team better just by stepping on the court, giving everybody else so much space.  Draymond Green doesn't belong on this team (or in this league), but the rest of this team is extremely smartly built.

Preliminary West ranking:  2nd

GOLDEN STATE
Bill Russell
Kevin Durant
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Isiah Thomas
James Harden
Tom Heinsohn
Bruce Bowen
Billy Cunningham
David Thompson
Joel Embiid

Another really, really good team.  I love Durant in the second round; he's the type of unicorn that will make it hard even for the best of teams to cover him.  Harden off the bench is another such mismatch.  I didn't like the Bowen pick much, and outside of Harden the bench isn't my favorite, but there's a lot to love here.  The big question for me:  how dominant is Giannis in this league?  Can he cover the great PFs?

Preliminary West ranking:  3rd

PORTLAND
Magic Johnson
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
James Worthy
Clyde Drexler
George Mikan
Ben Wallace
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker
Alex English

My guess:  somebody grew up watching basketball in the 80s and 90s, and it shows.  This is another team that just fits really well.  Magic feeding Barkley, Drexler, Worthy and Moses is just incredibly fun to think about.  I would have liked to see more versatile bigs off the bench, but that's a minor quibble.

Preliminary West ranking:  1st

UTAH
Michael Jordan
Bill Walton
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Joe Dumars
Chris Mullin
Klay Thompson
Wes Unseld
Derrick Rose
Andre Iguodala

I think Utah only had two players on its roster at the end of the 4th round, and it shows a little.  Jordan has GOAT credentials, but I think he'd be frustrated based upon a relative lack of talent compared to other teams here.  Yes, Walton had a great couple of seasons, but even then he was banged up.  A lot of the other guys were second or third fiddles on their teams.  In a league of all-time greats, I think Jordan needs another top-20 player to play beside, and here he doesn't necessarily have it.

Preliminary West ranking:  4th

DALLAS
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Anthony Davis
Chris Paul
Vince Carter
Ray Allen
Dominique Wilkins
Ron Artest
Pau Gasol
Chris Bosh
Mark Price

I love a lot of the talent, I'm not crazy about the fit.  In relative teams, I think the defense is weak outside of the Kareem / Davis combo.  I think other teams are going to be able to score on the Dominique / Vince / Ray combo. 

Preliminary West ranking:  5th

SAN ANTONIO
Hakeem Olajuwan
Kobe Bryant
Yao Ming
Gary Payton
Hedu Turkoglu
Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway
Dave DeBusschere
Jimmy Butler
Dale Ellis
Karl-Anthony Towns

I love the Hakeem / Payton combo.  Getting great defenders at center and point guard is a great start.  I wish a handful of these picks could be redone.  I wasn't a giant fan of Yao, Hedu, or Butler.  Also, I question Kobe Bryant.  I think he struggled to share the ball, and I worry about him taking shots away from more efficient players.

Preliminary West ranking:  6th

One quick note:  While I listed my preliminary rankings, things can change wildly with one trade.  There isn't one team here that I'd have "out of contention".  One particularly good or bad trade, and a team could easily move four or five slots in my rankings.

[Somebody]

Los Angeles Lakers

Starting lineup
PG: Stephen Curry
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Julius Erving
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Dave Cowens

Second unit
PG: Steve Nash
SG: TBD
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Elton Brand/Draymond Green
C: Artis Gilmore

With some luck in the 11th and 12th rounds to fill out my SG position, I believe that my team has a nice blend of offense and defense that you'd be hard pressed to find on other teams.

Offense:
The starting lineup will have McGrady being the primary ball handler, even though it may sound baffling to some. His passing was superb, posting assist percentages as high as 30% on 35.2% usage in the 2002-2003 season, and has drawn praise from Jeff Van Gundy as one of the best passing forwards to ever play the game. His combination of scoring and passing will be a handful for any team to defend, and he will be running a bevy of pick and roll/pop plays with two versatile big men in Kevin Garnett and Dave Cowens, who could roll inside to strain interior defenses with speed and physicality, or pop outside to shoot a midrange shot or even a three (I'm assuming we're using the "what if all-time greats were born and raised in the modern game?", so great midrange shooters for their position in KG and Cowens will be assumed to make threes at a decent clip). These plays will likely collapse the defense, and the greatest shooter of all time in terms of sheer volume combined with efficiency in Steph Curry will be hauling up as many decent looks he gets (and likely making them with his incredible shot making!). The Doctor will be waiting for opportunities on the wing to cut/drive for acrobatic finishes only a select few can do, and will get plays run for him in the mid/low post if he gets a mismatch for an easy score. The team will also utilise the high post game of Garnett and Cowens, with both big men able to exploit their defenders with speed and skill. They also were known for their court vision-both can facilitate high quality looks for their teammates with their passing ability when the offense in run through them inside. What I really like about this lineup is that we have a lot of options to choose depending on the matchup, and the players in the starting 5 have games that are flexible enough to retain considerable offensive value no matter how we run the offense.

Defense:
The starting lineup is also quite strong defensively. Although Steph Curry is perceived to be a weak defender, he's not that bad-he consistently puts in the effort to stay in front of his man, has sound defensive positioning and good court awareness, which culminated in him leading the league in steals aside from winning the scoring title in the 2015-2016 season by disrupting passing lanes and occasionally getting the steal in man to man defense. He's by no means a lockdown defender, but he is certainly adequate to stay in front of opposing PGs and provide a positive impact with his intangibles. McGrady is also a decent defender-he used his size and length to contest shots, and he had the athleticism to stay in front of his man. I might have rose coloured glasses on but I believe that he can crank it up when he has a better supporting cast to make life on offense easier for him ala Houston (he posted 4.5 DWS and 1.6 DBPM as an SG for the Rockets in the 06-07 season, both pretty good marks). The Doctor was above average-not great, but he was certainly a positive on that end with his otherwordly athleticism that allowed him to recover from defensive lapses and provide some stunning help defense. The heart of the defense will be the tandem of Kevin Garnett and Dave Cowens, as both are strong interior defenders who can also step out and cover perimeter players if needed on switches. Garnett's video game skillet will be the lynchpin of our defense-he can switch to all 5 positions in a possession seamlessly and still play lockdown defense, whether is it being a second rim protector to help out Dave Cowens inside, patrolling the court alongside the Doctor as a help defense duo, or even as a safety valve when Curry or McGrady are thrown into the blender in isolation/the pick and roll. Overall I think this team is can hold their own defensively, and can be disruptive when needed.

Bench
The second unit will mainly have their offense run through Steve Nash, who is one of the best floor generals on offense. There is synergy in the lineup-Nash and Marion had some fantastic runs together in Phoenix, and I believe that the two former teammates can form a strong partnership that can cover each other's weaknesses (defense for Nash, and offense for Marion). The frontcourt will consist of Elton Brand and Artis Gilmore, with the former being a two way force who could impose his will on either end of the court, and the latter being one of the finest rim protectors in NBA history. The defense of the frontcourt trio will cover Nash's defensive issues adequately imo, as opposing bench mobs would find it immensely difficult to go through the Matrix one on one and score on Brand and the A-Train once they get to the rim. Can't really go in depth about the second unit due to me lacking a backup shooting guard though.

I love the offense and spacing you get from your 3 backcourt player, but they are horrible defensively.  You really need to get 2 defense stoppers 1 at PG and 1 at SG to round the team out.  Dr. J is awesome.  I think he was the right guy to trade for, but he too is not exactly a defensive stopper either, though having Marion on your bench helps there.  I'm not sure I really love the KG and Cowens fit.  Both excellent all around players, but I wouldn't have thought of pairing them together. Gilmore was a great value selection, but I don't like Brand or Green in this.  Brand is just too ordinary i.e. good scorer, rebounder, etc.,but not great at anything.  Don't like that type of player in this.  As for Green, he thrives defensively against modern players, but I think he struggles guarding both PF's and C's that are on every team in this.

I think another trade could really help you out.  Not sure what it is necessarily but your bench could use some work.

I thought Brand was one of the PFs who were a level below KG/Duncan/Dirk in the 00s in his prime. Heard a lot of good things about him: efficient scorer on decently high volume, good rebounder and defender.

[Somebody]

Golden State Warriors - Pick 10

Starting Center - Bill Russell

Starting Power Forward - Giannis Antetokounmpo

Starting Small Forward - Kevin Durant

Starting Shooting Guard - Bruce Bowen

Starting Point Guard - Isiah Thomas

Starting 5 Synopsis -  Strategy - Overview


This is my pre-specific season pick, general overview and decision making philosophy.

I'll start with the most "interesting" inclusion in this group, the pick probably had more than a few of you wondering if I am sleep deprived, drunk, high and/or all of the three. I assure you, I am and was not. My decision to make this pick, which I admittedly . could have made later on, was representative of my consideration of useage, spacing, winning culture, team and individual defense. As many of you know, Bruce Bowen was a member of some San Antonio teams that embodied the team first moto. He is a career .440% shooter from the corners, a spot from which he took a staggering 80% of his threes. I considered this to be my greatest ally as it relates to both Isiah Thomas and Giannis. His ability to effectively defend 3 positions and 1 at an elite level while being an elite team player/team defender, is central to my usage theory. Bill Russell had similar players on his team that were asked to do more offensively. On this team, Russell orders Bowen around the perimeter with the intention of shepherding SG's into my other two perimeter defenders, Giannis and Durant.

While I feel I made a bit of a mistake and should have selected Gary Payton, I would ask Isiah Thomas to pick up full court and lead the other teams ball handler, if size is applicable, to the side of the court that correlates with their weak hand - yes I know these guys don't have weak hands, but much of this is a statistics game and it is proven, generally, when you force someone on to their unnatural side they perform, even at this elite-elite level, a tad less great. On offense id ask him to be 13 assist a game Isiah. Id run double pick and rolls a la 2008-11 celtics and force teams to switch slower bigs onto his with Durant and Russell. Id pop Durant most frequently and look for the biggest gaps created. I actually think this would create the most chances for Giannis with ball movement finding him coming downhill against an unorganized defense.

Durant is one of my three matchup nightmares. Because Durant is playing the 3 I think he is my biggest mismatch on BOTH ends of the floor. I firmly believe I have the only player in this game who can effectively defend Durant position specific. He can do it all on the offensive end and I would ask him to. He is my MJ on offense, an elite scorer, creator, ball handler, and mismatch nightmare. On defense, I would ask him to press higher up the court and deny as many post opportunities as possible.

Giannis is someone whom I feel is an absolute steal. His largest critiques are that he is unproven in the playoffs and has a small body of work. I think those crits to mitigated with the winners he is surrounded by. His transcendent talent is undeniable and his size/agility combo is, imo, the most extreme example since shaq. I think he is a bigger freak than Lebron, not saying he is better though, simply referencing their genetic makeup. Giannis would, admittedly have a difficult time defending some of the larger/more imposing PFs in history, but of those guys I don't feel any are capable of defending him. Defensively Id ask him to have a similar role to Durant and play relentless perimeter defense, frequently switch, and foul hard. Offensively, Id use Durant/Thomas to create movement and rotation in the opposing defense. Id look to get him the ball frequently with the defense rotating and attack opposite momentum any time he see a chance. That spin move is deadly.

Russell's chief responsibility would be to be the chief. He would quarterback our defense and demand us to play crisp offense. His responsibility would be to take on the other teams biggest threat, from a big stand point. Crash the glass, catch lobs from my 3 other playmakers. Do all the dirty work. Something tells me he would cherish the opportunity.

Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to everyone for being so patient, this week has been a freakin whirlwind. If anyone wants to come out to see a Notre Dame game this fall, let me know!

Isiah is a feisty defender, but I don't see him as a guy who can full court press an elite PG and then go 13 APG mode on offense. I love the Durant-Giannis-Russell frontcourt though, excellent defense and very efficient offense. I'd probably go for a point guard who can shoot more efficiently than IT, Giannis and Russell hurts your spacing quite a bit and you can use a point guard who can space the floor better.

Yea, I was initially concerned about ITs shooting, but when I looked closer I found that he is a career .346% from 3 In the playoffs and shot 47% during one of his championship runs on 3.5 attempts per game. I think that is fair precedent to more than suggest he would be an average to above average shooter in today’s era and more than capable of filling a role as an outside shooter. Couple that with people making agreements that many of these bigs would be better outside shooters today and using that speculation to reinforce their own teams values - I would argue that it is fair to say he is a league average + three point shooter in the playoffs. It is my stance that my teams makes the playoffs in this context.

Ah okay. Still not sold on him playing incredible two way basketball though lol.

[gouki88]

One quick note:  While I listed my preliminary rankings, things can change wildly with one trade.  There isn't one team here that I'd have "out of contention".  One particularly good or bad trade, and a team could easily move four or five slots in my rankings.

This is probably one of the most fun and exciting aspects of the game. The margin is so slim that one good or bad trade could completely shake things up. Let's hope some start firing!

TP for the evaluation of my team

[Somebody]

I'm going to offer some thoughts on each of the teams.  Some caveats:  I didn't watch all of these players.  I have my own biases, which I'm probably not really going to be a lot on.  I've got my own internal criteria for judging teams, which I'm probably completely inconsistent on.  For the most part, I'm going to be pretty liberal in terms of skills adjusting.  If a guy had a rangy jump shot when he played, I'm going to assume he'd be a good shooter now.  If a guy played elite defense in his era, I'm going to assume he could do it today.  So, with that said:

BOSTON
LeBron James
David Robinson
Rick Barry
Bob McAdoo
Allen Iverson
Chauncey Billups
Dwight Howard
Kevin McHale
Reggie Miller
Deron Williams

Robinson / McHale / Lebron is a heck of a combo.  I'm not completely sold on the back court in a league of all-time greats, but both Reggie and Chauncey would be able to play off of Lebron.  Every guy in the starting lineup can create his own shot while also playing off the ball.  Very solid bench, although I'm not sure if I like Deron Williams here.  He had some very good seasons, and might even belong here, but I think he lost luster as his career went on. 

Preliminary East ranking:  2nd

PHILADELPHIA
Larry Bird
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Nate "Tiny" Archibald
Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd
Sidney Moncrief
Jerry Lucas
Bob Lanier
Mark Aguirre

Having the top pick helps tremendously, even with the depth in this draft.  I always said that if I had the #1 pick, I'd trade down and pick one of two players:  Magic (my presumptive #1 pick) or Larry.  Those two epitomized what it meant to get the most out of teammates.  Larry easily could have hung more stats, but instead he focused on doing what was best for the team.  I think only a handful of superstars had that mentality.  So, he's the perfect type of player to build around.

Larry, though, isn't enough of a foundation to win in a league like this.  Like anybody, he needs a team around him, and I think this team is constructed almost perfectly.  Karl Malone is a rare combination of size, strength and athleticism.  Until Tim Duncan came along, he was pretty much the consensus best PF of all-time.  Filling out the front court is Ewing, who was excellent at scoring, rebounding, and defending. 

I really agree with Who's evaluation of this team.  Every single player in the starting lineup could defend.  Bob Lanier and Sidney Moncrief could be starters in this league, but both come off the bench.  Nate Archibald is a 30 / 10 microwave of a player.  The only question I have is Jerry Lucas,  because I never saw him and haven't done a ton of research on him.  However, from what I read he was a 20 / 20 guy who could shoot at an elite level.  As probably a 10th man, that's dang impressive.

I think why I really like this team is the versatility.  Larry can easily move up to PF, with Pierce at SF and Moncrief at SG.  In shifting around its lineup, the team loses nothing, which most teams can't say.  There are really no weaknesses here:  offense, defense, passing, rebounding, shooting.

Preliminary East Ranking:  1st

CHICAGO
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Willis Reed
Sam Jones
Dan Majerle
Scottie Pippen
Mitch Richmond
Bob Cousy
Rasheed Wallace

This team made two of the best value picks of the draft, Elgin Baylor and Bob Cousy.  And, it's a really strong team, but I've got to be honest:  I think they took a real step back by dealing McHale and Reggie.  As I've mentioned previously, my view of leagues like this -- where all talent is elite -- is that games are won or lost based upon mismatches.  The Duncan / McHale front court created that sort of mismatch, where any team was going to be smothered defensively going up against those two.  I think that was lost a little.  Yes, Pippen is a great defender as well, but he's not going to work in conjunction with Duncan in the same way.  I also think Elgin Baylor's role is a little confused now.  Is he slotted to play SG?  Yes, he was 6'5" (without shoes?) but he was a SF / PF.  I like him at SF, but that puts him in conflict with Scottie.  The team is still supremely talented, but I think they took a step back.

Preliminary East Ranking:  3rd

DETROIT
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
John Stockton
Elvin Hayes
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Bernard King
Pete Maravich
Michael Cooper
Al Horford

I love a lot of these players individually, but I think the team lacks a top-15 player of all-time, which really sets it back.  I like the defensive identity, but my personal belief in these leagues is that great offense is going to beat great defense.  The hope is that players will add both, but when speaking about pure defense, I don't think anybody can "shut down" the all-time greats, which is why a team needs to pack elite scoring punch to win.  I'm not sure that this team has that.

Preliminary East ranking:  6th

MIAMI
Shaquille O'Neal
Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
Paul George
Nate Thurmond
Manu Ginobili
Bobby Jones
Chris Webber
Marcus Smart
Detlef Schrempf

Shaq plus West is one of the best -- if not the best -- inside/outside duos in the league.  This team has us consider one of the great what ifs in NBA history:  what is Shaq and Webber had played together?  Would that have worked?  Orlando didn't think so, mostly due to spacing and FT shooting.  I would have loved to see that lineup in the real NBA.  In this league, would they get in each other's way?  It's a possibility, but I give it the benefit of the doubt.

I think this team had a couple of overdrafts, which leads to a very slight talent deficit, but overall a fun team to watch.

Preliminary East ranking:  5th

ATLANTA
Wilt Chamberlain
Dirk Nowitzki
Walt Frazier
Paul Westphal
Grant Hill
George Gervin
Ralph Sampson
Robert Parish
Terry Porter
Marques Johnson

This team has been a hard one for me to evaluate.  With each pick after Wilt and outside of George Gervin, I've questioned whether there was better talent on the board, whether Who was reaching a bit.  However, after 10 rounds I just really like how this team fits together.  Wilt / Dirk / Hill / Westphal / Frazier would just really fit together well as a team, and probably the right mix of talent to get the most out of Wilt.

Preliminary East ranking:  4th

LOS ANGELES
Kevin Garnett
Steph Curry
Tracey McGrady
Julius Erving
Dave Cowens
Steve Nash
Draymond Green
Artis Gilmore
Shawn Marion
Elton Brand

This team has a really smart starting lineup.  KG + Cowens would be a tenacious starting front court, and Steph Curry makes the team better just by stepping on the court, giving everybody else so much space.  Draymond Green doesn't belong on this team (or in this league), but the rest of this team is extremely smartly built.

Preliminary West ranking:  2nd

GOLDEN STATE
Bill Russell
Kevin Durant
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Isiah Thomas
James Harden
Tom Heinsohn
Bruce Bowen
Billy Cunningham
David Thompson
Joel Embiid

Another really, really good team.  I love Durant in the second round; he's the type of unicorn that will make it hard even for the best of teams to cover him.  Harden off the bench is another such mismatch.  I didn't like the Bowen pick much, and outside of Harden the bench isn't my favorite, but there's a lot to love here.  The big question for me:  how dominant is Giannis in this league?  Can he cover the great PFs?

Preliminary West ranking:  3rd

PORTLAND
Magic Johnson
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
James Worthy
Clyde Drexler
George Mikan
Ben Wallace
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker
Alex English

My guess:  somebody grew up watching basketball in the 80s and 90s, and it shows.  This is another team that just fits really well.  Magic feeding Barkley, Drexler, Worthy and Moses is just incredibly fun to think about.  I would have liked to see more versatile bigs off the bench, but that's a minor quibble.

Preliminary West ranking:  1st

UTAH
Michael Jordan
Bill Walton
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Joe Dumars
Chris Mullin
Klay Thompson
Wes Unseld
Derrick Rose
Andre Iguodala

I think Utah only had two players on its roster at the end of the 4th round, and it shows a little.  Jordan has GOAT credentials, but I think he'd be frustrated based upon a relative lack of talent compared to other teams here.  Yes, Walton had a great couple of seasons, but even then he was banged up.  A lot of the other guys were second or third fiddles on their teams.  In a league of all-time greats, I think Jordan needs another top-20 player to play beside, and here he doesn't necessarily have it.

Preliminary West ranking:  4th

DALLAS
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Anthony Davis
Chris Paul
Vince Carter
Ray Allen
Dominique Wilkins
Ron Artest
Pau Gasol
Chris Bosh
Mark Price

I love a lot of the talent, I'm not crazy about the fit.  In relative teams, I think the defense is weak outside of the Kareem / Davis combo.  I think other teams are going to be able to score on the Dominique / Vince / Ray combo. 

Preliminary West ranking:  5th

SAN ANTONIO
Hakeem Olajuwan
Kobe Bryant
Yao Ming
Gary Payton
Hedu Turkoglu
Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway
Dave DeBusschere
Jimmy Butler
Dale Ellis
Karl-Anthony Towns

I love the Hakeem / Payton combo.  Getting great defenders at center and point guard is a great start.  I wish a handful of these picks could be redone.  I wasn't a giant fan of Yao, Hedu, or Butler.  Also, I question Kobe Bryant.  I think he struggled to share the ball, and I worry about him taking shots away from more efficient players.

Preliminary West ranking:  6th

One quick note:  While I listed my preliminary rankings, things can change wildly with one trade.  There isn't one team here that I'd have "out of contention".  One particularly good or bad trade, and a team could easily move four or five slots in my rankings.

TP for the analysis.

[Who]

Here is our Celtics Strong Historical Draft 2019 MIA Heat after 10 rounds:

PG - Jerry West / Marcus Smart
SG - Dwyane Wade / Manu Ginobili
SF - Paul George / Detlef Shrempf / Bobby Jones
PF - Chris Webber - Nate Thurmond / Bobby Jones
C - Shaquille O'Neal / Nate Thurmond

My backcourt is lead by Jerry West, with Dwyane Wade being capable of handling PG duties while JW plays off the ball from time to time. Jerry West provides elite offense as well as a several 1st Team Defensive awards. JW also earned Finals MVP in a losing effort. Wade - while not a great defender - is a great shot-blocking guard and is widely recognized as the 3rd best SG of all-time (behind Michael and Kobe). I also could not pass up DWayde's elite rim-attacking abilities. He is not a great shooter from deep but has solid deep two range. Dwyane Wade also earned a FInals MVP.

My backcourt bench so far features Elite 6th man Manu Ginobili and Mr. Impact Marcus Smart. Manu is my do-all utility knife - providing very good ball-handling and distributing skills, solid threat from deep, solid rim-attacking skills and good defense.

I absolutely love Marcus Smart. He is a great teammate, a dogged defender and capable of making IMPACT plays that the team feeds off of. I have seen Smart do this time and time again for the Boston Celtics and I know he would continue with impact plays for my team here. He also had his best offensive improvement the past year.

Smart can also defend 1's, 2s and some threes in this format. He's done it repeatedly against modern day players and I'm certain he would be a heady, smart and savvy player in an all-time great format. Marcus does not need the ball to make impact plays and affects the game in various ways.

Paul George is leading my SFs. He is an elite SF in the modern NBA - providing elite defense, a deep threat and capable scoring. Injuries have kept him out of perhaps the top 5 modern day conversation but make no mistake he has few holes in his game.

Loved Detlef when he played for SEA. He reminded me of Dirk Nowitski in that he was a big PF that could stretch the floor. He also spent considerable time at SF. Detlef is another 6th man of the year player on our team as well.

My PFs provide an array of skills and talent to fit both the modern and past NBA. Nate Thurmond gave Bill Russell and Wilt fits on the defensive end, was a capable scorer down low, an elite rebounder and defender. He was also a decent passer and could shoot from mid-range even though most of his scoring came from down low near the rim. I can also see Nate being a good perimeter defender in that he was athletic, quick and extremely long - with a wingspan reportedly longer than Wilt's. He was 6'11" and a chiseled 225 ad I don't see him having much trouble switching out and defending in space if needed.

Chris Webber gives me a Big that can take opposing bigs off the dribble, is an elite distributor, has a reliable jumper and is a threat to attack the rim. I can see him pulling opposing bigs away from Shaq with his offensive talent and giving Shaq one on one opportunities. He  is no slouch on defense either.

Bobby Jones is another 6th man of the year addition AND an elite defender - being perhaps the most disruptive force on our team defensively. Jones was long, wiry, strong, quick, athletic and loved to run the floor. In the modern NBA I can see him spending time at SF defensively.

Shaquille O'Neal was recently called The Most Dominant Ever by none other than Kobe Bryant. His playing days featured an extremely intelligent, athletic, powerful and intimidating presence on the floor, quick off his feat and was a virtual lock to score in the paint. Shaq also possessed very good passing skills if doubled and would thrive in this format with capable shooters on the floor with him. He was also a capable defender and rim protector for 3 years, earning 2nd-team Defensive awards.

Shaquille O'Neal's FT woes are well-documented but amazingly this was not a determining factor in many games. Great coaching seemed to mitigate this shortcoming for Shaq. He also seemed to make FTs when they counted in crunch time. Shaq also earned multiple Finals MVP awards.

Love how my team fits and there won't be any drama here.

Looking forward to feedback and thanks in advance.

I liked the C-Webb pickup and move into the starting lineup. I like Nate Thurmond but was not a fan of him at PF. Much better at center. And I did not like the fit of Thurmond next to Shaq's paint-only offense. So C-Webb starting and Nate moving to a bench role is a big move in my eyes.

The West & D-Wade backcourt is very strong. Two combo guards who can play PG or SG. Dynamic duo. Both capable of creating offense from anywhere on the floor. Both play good D, rebound well and pass the ball well on offense.

Paul George is a good glue guy at SF to play defense and shoot 3s. I am not wild about PG13's overall offensive game (handles, passing, versatility of shot creation) but here he can play a more contained role and be very successful (like Ewing in Philly).

Webber I am not overly fond of (dodgy D, bad shot selection, so-so efficiency, don't trust him in big games) but I do see him as big improvement at PF over Thurmond. Thurmond is a strong backup center. Terrific man D. Good team D. Strong rebounding. Passes the ball well. Team player through and through. He was a guy I was looking to play behind Wilt. I thought Nate with his passing, D and rebounding would be a great facilitator / backbone for the 2nd unit.


I think the bench drags you back a bit. I don't think Marcus Smart or Detlef Schrempf are rotation players in this league. I think you could find better options with your final two picks. That would help even out your depth.

I love Manu Ginobili. I think he can start in this league. Terrific skill-set and personality. Willing to sacrifice and do whatever is necessary for the betterment of the team. Nate Thurmond is a strong backup C. Bobby Jones is a good backup PF/SF.

[Who]

Los Angeles Lakers

Starting lineup
PG: Stephen Curry
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Julius Erving
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Dave Cowens

Second unit
PG: Steve Nash
SG: TBD
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Elton Brand/Draymond Green
C: Artis Gilmore

With some luck in the 11th and 12th rounds to fill out my SG position, I believe that my team has a nice blend of offense and defense that you'd be hard pressed to find on other teams.

Offense:
The starting lineup will have McGrady being the primary ball handler, even though it may sound baffling to some. His passing was superb, posting assist percentages as high as 30% on 35.2% usage in the 2002-2003 season, and has drawn praise from Jeff Van Gundy as one of the best passing forwards to ever play the game. His combination of scoring and passing will be a handful for any team to defend, and he will be running a bevy of pick and roll/pop plays with two versatile big men in Kevin Garnett and Dave Cowens, who could roll inside to strain interior defenses with speed and physicality, or pop outside to shoot a midrange shot or even a three (I'm assuming we're using the "what if all-time greats were born and raised in the modern game?", so great midrange shooters for their position in KG and Cowens will be assumed to make threes at a decent clip). These plays will likely collapse the defense, and the greatest shooter of all time in terms of sheer volume combined with efficiency in Steph Curry will be hauling up as many decent looks he gets (and likely making them with his incredible shot making!). The Doctor will be waiting for opportunities on the wing to cut/drive for acrobatic finishes only a select few can do, and will get plays run for him in the mid/low post if he gets a mismatch for an easy score. The team will also utilise the high post game of Garnett and Cowens, with both big men able to exploit their defenders with speed and skill. They also were known for their court vision-both can facilitate high quality looks for their teammates with their passing ability when the offense in run through them inside. What I really like about this lineup is that we have a lot of options to choose depending on the matchup, and the players in the starting 5 have games that are flexible enough to retain considerable offensive value no matter how we run the offense.

Defense:
The starting lineup is also quite strong defensively. Although Steph Curry is perceived to be a weak defender, he's not that bad-he consistently puts in the effort to stay in front of his man, has sound defensive positioning and good court awareness, which culminated in him leading the league in steals aside from winning the scoring title in the 2015-2016 season by disrupting passing lanes and occasionally getting the steal in man to man defense. He's by no means a lockdown defender, but he is certainly adequate to stay in front of opposing PGs and provide a positive impact with his intangibles. McGrady is also a decent defender-he used his size and length to contest shots, and he had the athleticism to stay in front of his man. I might have rose coloured glasses on but I believe that he can crank it up when he has a better supporting cast to make life on offense easier for him ala Houston (he posted 4.5 DWS and 1.6 DBPM as an SG for the Rockets in the 06-07 season, both pretty good marks). The Doctor was above average-not great, but he was certainly a positive on that end with his otherwordly athleticism that allowed him to recover from defensive lapses and provide some stunning help defense. The heart of the defense will be the tandem of Kevin Garnett and Dave Cowens, as both are strong interior defenders who can also step out and cover perimeter players if needed on switches. Garnett's video game skillet will be the lynchpin of our defense-he can switch to all 5 positions in a possession seamlessly and still play lockdown defense, whether is it being a second rim protector to help out Dave Cowens inside, patrolling the court alongside the Doctor as a help defense duo, or even as a safety valve when Curry or McGrady are thrown into the blender in isolation/the pick and roll. Overall I think this team is can hold their own defensively, and can be disruptive when needed.

Bench
The second unit will mainly have their offense run through Steve Nash, who is one of the best floor generals on offense. There is synergy in the lineup-Nash and Marion had some fantastic runs together in Phoenix, and I believe that the two former teammates can form a strong partnership that can cover each other's weaknesses (defense for Nash, and offense for Marion). The frontcourt will consist of Elton Brand and Artis Gilmore, with the former being a two way force who could impose his will on either end of the court, and the latter being one of the finest rim protectors in NBA history. The defense of the frontcourt trio will cover Nash's defensive issues adequately imo, as opposing bench mobs would find it immensely difficult to go through the Matrix one on one and score on Brand and the A-Train once they get to the rim. Can't really go in depth about the second unit due to me lacking a backup shooting guard though.

I love the Cowens and Garnett duo. They are the spine of the team with their defense, rebounding and team offense.

Steph Curry is a major mismatch in this game with his outside shooting. Another level from every other PG's shooting capabilities. The closest guy to him is Nash and you have him too as your backup PG!

Tracy McGrady and Julius Erving is a tough wing duo to play against. Physically and athletically - just to matchup against those guys takes a lot. Both can impact the game in multiple ways.

Dr J is one of the best transition players ever. T-Mac no slouch either. With Curry spotting up for 3s and two floor running bigs, this is one of the best transition teams in the league.

Nash is awesome to have off the bench. He really should be starting somewhere. He is one of the best offensive PGs ever. Magic, Steph and Nash. Oscar. Top 4.

Artis Gilmore is a good backup center. Draymond Green and Shawn Marion are solid defensive forwards. Elton Brand gives you a different option when you need more of a shot-creator at PF. I love Marion's defense & rebounding at SF. Not the most skilled offensive player but he always finds a way to get himself hoops. I am a big Draymond fan. Add a shooter at SG and this is a strong bench.

One of the better teams in the league. LAL and Portland stand out the most to me in the West.

[Who]

The San Antonio Spurs

PG: Gary Payton ---Penny Hardaway
SG: Kobe Bryant --- Dale Ellis
SF: Jimmy Butler --- Hedu Turkoglu
PF: Dave Debusscherre --- Karl-Anthony Towns
C: Hakeem Olajuwon --- Yao Ming

i firmly believe that I have the most interesting team of all.
And I also believe that my team can cause a number of debates, which was kind of the point of it all.

First off, no ones team features the defense that mine has. DPOY and greatest defensive PG of all time, 9 time all nba 1st defensive SG, a tough hard nosed defensive SF, a PF who was named all nba defensive 1st team 6 times (the award wasnt a thing when he started playing) who is also considered one of the greatest defensive PFs ever, and the greatest defensive DPOY center of all time.

add to that lineup offensively, my PG is arguable top 5 of all time as a pg, my sg is second all time, my center is top 5 all time, arguable top 3 all time. and all three of them are polished offensive forces. My main trio are multiple time all nba 1st team we have MVPs, finals MVPs, scoring champs, etc. My team will dog you defensively, and expose your weaknesses offensively.

My starting lineup is going to create so many turnovers and fast break opportunities its crazy.


And my bench, my beautiful bench is littered with mismatches for other teams.

There is no bench PG that is going to be able to contain Penny, no one. The only guards that are capapble of slowing penny on the perimeter give up size and he will post them up. mismatch

My shooting guard is 6foot8 and has long arms and a deadly shot that he can get off over anyone, also very adept ball handler and a willing passer. he is also a bruiser that can post up. mismatch

My small forward is 6foot10 and has ball handling skill, is clutch, is a fantastic shooter and playmaker who can post up smaller guards and run circles around larger forwards. mismatch

My PW is a 7foot1 faceup/postup monster who shoots over 40% from 3 and grabs lots of boards. Putting someone small on him he will shoot over them, or post them up. someone bigger on him and he can speed past them. mismatch.

My center is a 7foot6 monster with a soft touch and great hands. he commands respect all the way out to 22 feet from the basket, can set massive screens, and can also make great passes out of the post. He forces teams to play bigmen on him opening the door for the other bench players to take advantage. mismatch

I also have ultimate flexibility as Penny can play 3 positions, Kobe 2 positions, Butler 2 positions, Hedu 2 positions, dave 2 positions, s 2 positions, KAT 2 positions and Hakeem 2 positions.

All this gives me huge matchup flexibility as I can move ny of Ellis, Penny, Hedu or Kat into the starting lineup easily and not miss a beat.

I like Jimmy Butler and Dave DeBusschere as your starters. I love KAT's offensive game but his defense lags behind too much to play major minutes in this league. I prefer him as a small minute bench player. I would go with Butler over Dale Ellis because Ellis was a really bad defensive player & rebounder.

I love the defensive identity of the team with Hakeem, Payton, Kobe and DeBusschere. Butler fits into that well also. I think their defense will carry them and they should get enough offense from Kobe, Hakeem and Payton to be solid there as well.

Penny Hardaway is an awesome bench player. Good enough to start at PG or SG in this league. I am not much of a Yao Ming fan. I think he is too slow. He has his uses though. Dale Ellis is a good shooter / gunner off the bench to offer your offense something different. I like that - offering something different, able to change the flow of the game when needed. Not a fan of Hedo as a rotation player.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I'm going to offer some thoughts on each of the teams.  Some caveats:  I didn't watch all of these players.  I have my own biases, which I'm probably not really going to be a lot on.  I've got my own internal criteria for judging teams, which I'm probably completely inconsistent on.  For the most part, I'm going to be pretty liberal in terms of skills adjusting.  If a guy had a rangy jump shot when he played, I'm going to assume he'd be a good shooter now.  If a guy played elite defense in his era, I'm going to assume he could do it today.  So, with that said:

DETROIT
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
John Stockton
Elvin Hayes
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Bernard King
Pete Maravich
Michael Cooper
Al Horford

I love a lot of these players individually, but I think the team lacks a top-15 player of all-time, which really sets it back.  I like the defensive identity, but my personal belief in these leagues is that great offense is going to beat great defense.  The hope is that players will add both, but when speaking about pure defense, I don't think anybody can "shut down" the all-time greats, which is why a team needs to pack elite scoring punch to win.  I'm not sure that this team has that.

Preliminary East ranking:  6th

Thanks for the insight, Roy. Really appreciate that. I would use that to determine the last two picks I have and maybe get a better assessment next time.

With that said, I feel like I have to defend my guys here for a little bit.

1. Kawhi Leonard in '17-'19 averaged 25 points a game, 9th in the league. He had 25 games out of 74 he played scoring more than 30 points during that year. So about a ration of 1 every 3 games he play, he'll drop 30. And he did that against teams like Golden State, Memphis, Utah, New Orleand, Detroit, Indiana, who, in '17'-'18 are among the top 10 defenses in the league at the time. He does that anywhere on the court, thru any means. His pull up jumper is as deadly a weapon as anything in the league right now. He can get to the rim. He can get to the FT line (11th in the league in FTA in '17-'18). He can score off ball.

Yes, he is not one of the all time greats. Not yet, anyway. But I think we are truly underestimating the scoring prowess of Kawhi Leonard. He's one of the elite scorer in this league right now, and a truly efficient one. That should translate to this league.

2. I can't remember which year I chose for Hondo, but I know it's either one of these two. 

In '70-'71 John Havlicek was 2nd in the league in scoring, only behind a certain Kareem Abdul-Jabaar. In '71-'72, he was third behind Kareem and Tiny Archibald. The man has been scoring in bunches during the start of 70s and is ranking among the top of the league, among players who's known for their buckets prowess. Surely he can continue the scoring spree in this league.

3. John Stockton himself can give you an efficient 17 points per game in '89-'90, all while adding 14 assists. He's going to create scoring chances, and add some of his own.

4. Even Big E and Alonzo are capable 20 ppg guys on the potential years I would like to pick for them, and they don't just do them inside the paint.

5. We have TWO scoring champions coming in off the bench. Two different styles, but bucket getters none the less.

[action781]

Looking for feedback on the
Utah Jazz

Starters
PG:  1990 Joe Dumars (30 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team.
SG:  1991 Michael Jordan (36 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team, Finals MVP.
SF:  1992 Chris Mullin (30 minutes)
PF:  1996 Dennis Rodman (24 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team
C:  1977 Bill Walton (32 minutes) -- Champion, all-defensive first team, Finals MVP.

                                 Season   Age   PTS   REB   AST   STL   BLK   
PG   Joe Dumars        1989-90   26   17.8   2.8   4.9     0.8    0.0   
SG   Michael Jordan   1990-91   27   31.5   6.0   5.5     2.7   1.0
SF   Chris Mullin        1991-92   28   25.6   5.6   3.5     2.1   0.8   
PF   Dennis Rodman   1995-96   34   5.5   14.9   2.5     0.6     0.4   
C    Bill Walton          1976-77   24   18.6   14.4   3.2    1.0    3.2   

Bench
PG:  2011 Derrick Rose (12 minutes) -- League MVP.  Subs in when MJ subs out as an offensive catalyst.
SG:  2018 Klay Thompson (18 minutes) -- Champion.  Primary sub for Dumars. Will play alongside MJ at times which pushes MJ to point.
SF:  2015 Andre Iguodala (18 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  Chris Mullin's primary backup. 
PF:  1958 Bob Pettit (30 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  A lot of minutes, including some as backup center.  2x scoring champ, 2x MVP, 4x all-star MVP (indicating he can thrive alongside other all-stars) in his career.
C:  1978 Wes Unseld (10 minutes) -- Champion, Finals MVP.  A guy who can excel in a non-primary role on a title team (Finals MVP) and one of best outlet passers in league history to help spark the fast break.  Plays well with other stars.

Defense
The strength of my team is defense.  We start former DPOYs and two top-10 NBA defenders of all-time at SG and PF (Jordan and Rodman).  Joe Dumars and Bill Walton at PG and C are first-team all-defensive players.  Walton is a particularly excellent help-defending shot blocker.  Chris Mullin is not known as neither a great defensive player nor a liability, but I can put Andre Iguodala in the starting lineup if needed (against a team with an elite SF needing to be defended) or slide Rodman up a position if the matchup necessitates. 

Offense
I'd like to turn defense and rebounding into transition offense a lot as my wings -- Jordan, Mullins, D-Rose, Klay -- can really thrive in transition and my bigs -- Rodman, Walton, and Unseld -- can rebound well and are all top-notch at igniting the break with outlet passing.

I think the offensive parts of my starting lineup compliment each other very well. 
-Michael Jordan, of course, is the primary option who can score in volume at elite efficiency. 
-Jordan has floor spacers on the perimeter with Dumars and Mullin that need to be respected.  Those guys can create to a lesser extent as well.
-Mullin is our secondary scoring option (25ppg as all-nba first team player in '92) who was the 4th leading scorer for the original Dream Team can thrive playing uptempo (see: Run TMC) and without the ball in his hands. 
-I'd like some half-court offense to run through Bill Walton who can be a great playmaker setting up hand-offs for our perimeter players, hitting cutters, and crashing the o-boards with Rodman. 
-Rodman is obviously not your typical "threat" offensively, but can collect tons of o-boards and can finish with high efficiency.  I value highly having a low-usage starter as I think every team has players that will have difficulty adapting to lesser usage than they are used to.

On the bench, we have a lot of scoring punch with 2x scoring champ Bob Pettit, MVP Derrick Rose, and Klay Thompson along with some great team-oriented offensive players in floor spacer and passer Andre Iguodala and outlet passer Wes Unseld.  Some of the scoring punch on our bench is greater than in our starting lineup because I'd prefer to not take too much usage away from Jordan.  I think Walton, Dumars, and Mullins are all quite good supportive offensive players to put around Jordan.

Some questions:
1) How impactful is having Dennis Rodman as a defender in my starting lineup?  One website, ranker.com, allows users to all vote on random questions and has Dennis Rodman as the #1 best defender of all time -- https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-nba-defensive-players-of-all-time-v1/jeffnorth   I feel like he will be an excellent starter as a guy who can be impactful while not taking usage away from other guys.  Am I overvaluing this?  Are people not really concerned with the diminished value most players will get as their usage decreases?

2) Generally speaking for any team, would Rodman be used most optimally when he was more of a SF in Detroit (DPOY) or when he was a PF in Chicago (defended bigs better, better rebounder)?  I could always slide him up to SF and start Pettit at PF.  I really could use some help in what season I should select for him.  His stats weren't great in the '96 season I want to use him for.

3) I often intentionally picked the seasons of guys when they won titles and particularly if they won Finals MVP.  I think performing at that high of a level when the stakes are the highest against the best teams speaks volumes of a players performance that year.  Do other people think similarly?  For example, should I have chosen Wes Unseld's 1969 13ppg, 18rpg NBA MVP season at age 22 without team success over his 1978 8ppg, 12rpg season Champion/Finals MVP season at age 31?  Would it make much of a difference if I choose 1989 for Dumars when he was Finals MVP?

4) Any other general commentary is much appreciated.  Looking forward to commenting on your teams as well!

[action781]

UTAH
Michael Jordan
Bill Walton
Dennis Rodman
Bob Pettit
Joe Dumars
Chris Mullin
Klay Thompson
Wes Unseld
Derrick Rose
Andre Iguodala

I think Utah only had two players on its roster at the end of the 4th round, and it shows a little.  Jordan has GOAT credentials, but I think he'd be frustrated based upon a relative lack of talent compared to other teams here.  Yes, Walton had a great couple of seasons, but even then he was banged up.  A lot of the other guys were second or third fiddles on their teams.  In a league of all-time greats, I think Jordan needs another top-20 player to play beside, and here he doesn't necessarily have it.

Preliminary West ranking:  4th

Roy, I seriously appreciate all this thoughtful commentary you've added to this thread.  TP to you, wish I could give you 12.  A little response, not necessarily for you to respond to, but just to explain my thinking on team construction:

Walton, in my mind, was the other top-20 overall player on this team around Jordan based on the single-season rules of the game.  It's certainly fair to have a different opinion on that though.  On offense, I think Mullin is a capable secondary scorer.  He was the third highest scorer in the league in '92 (at 25ppg at 52.4% shooting) and 4th highest scorer on the Dream Team.  I honestly do think its easy to overlook Mullin, but he finished higher in both of those than some players I've seen you be fond of offensively in this game.

Yes, I've added a bunch of second and third fiddles, and that was intentional.  They are all players who have proven they can be accepting of and productive in a non-primary role on a championship team.  I think people take for granted the idea that all these #1s are going to magically mesh well and thrive while only taking 10 fgas per game.  I don't believe that would be the case if we really played these games out so I wanted to target players that I know can accept the roles they'll need to accept while they're on the court with the GOAT.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

Ladies and Gentleman: Your 2019 Historical Draft Boston Celtics


Starters:

David Robinson, Kevin McHale, LeBron James, Reggie Miller, Chauncey Billups


The offense will run through LeBron, with a great high low option with D-Rob and McHale. The ability of both of those guys to pass from post to post and help screen for the shooters will make life easier on LBJ. Plus both are capable of stepping out and hitting a mid range jumper, ensuring the lane won't be too clogged for LeBron. Both are also champions who have won without being the primary option on their teams, and can rebound and defend some of the better bigs in the league.

Chauncey and Reggie will be working off screens to get open shots, and will have plenty of catch and shoot opportunities with the passing of LBJ and the bigs. Reggie's entire career was built on getting open shots, and he will have plenty more than he ever did on Indiana with the attention teams have to devote to the other guys on this squad. Chauncey and Reggie are proven clutch shooters, and can both create their own looks if things break down.


Bench:

Dwight Howard, Bob McAdoo, Rick Barry, Allen Iverson, Deron Williams

Iverson will be the 6th man, coming in for quick offense and pestering opposing guards. D-Will had a couple of great years shooting the 3 ball, and him and Barry will act as great catch and shoot options of AI's penetration. McAdoo is a fantastic scorer and rebounder who's game in today's era would translate to a lot more outside shots and open up room down low for Dwight. Dwight was a force back in the day, so he will act as a defensive anchor and a guy that can finish lobs from AI, D-Will, or one of the starters when he is spelling Robinson.

Overall I like the team's balance, versatility, and talent and expect us to compete for one of the top spots in the east

[Roy H.]

Yes, I've added a bunch of second and third fiddles, and that was intentional.  They are all players who have proven they can be accepting of and productive in a non-primary role on a championship team.  I think people take for granted the idea that all these #1s are going to magically mesh well and thrive while only taking 10 fgas per game.  I don't believe that would be the case if we really played these games out so I wanted to target players that I know can accept the roles they'll need to accept while they're on the court with the GOAT.

I think that's a totally legitimate perspective, and it's really one of the keys to this game:  how do the players buy into the format?

I think that if we go down the "Would Player X accept a lesser role" rabbit hole, the game breaks down.  Even on your team, you've got guys like Derrick Rose and Wes Unseld coming off your bench.  Is MVP Derrick Rose going to accept playing 12 minutes?  If we take the "time machine" approach, where all these guys were transported in time to 2019 to play together, I don't think he would.  He'd be a competitive monster who not only wanted to start, but wanted the ball in his hands.

And that's not just your team, it's everybody's.  Nobody is getting enough touches, compared to their careers roles.  So, in general, I'm not going to use somebody's willingness to accept a role against them.  Even Iverson, a guy who absolutely could not accept a bench role in real life, is given the benefit of the doubt in my analysis.  I basically see this league as a 12-team league of guys who play together in 2019, raised with all of the same advantages.  Unless a guy was a hugely selfish or disruptive player, I'm not going to ding him too much about accepting a role.  Under that scenario, Derrick Rose isn't the coddled MVP who thinks the world revolves around him who would never accept a full-time bench role.  Rather, he's just another guy.

That's why I am fine with a team that has five Alphas in the starting lineup.  I assume that those guys will work it out, and the competitive fire that made them team leaders and dominant players will allow them to do whatever they need to to win.  That said, yes, players who were both dominant *and* unselfish in their primes will be given extra consideration.

[action781]

Yes, I've added a bunch of second and third fiddles, and that was intentional.  They are all players who have proven they can be accepting of and productive in a non-primary role on a championship team.  I think people take for granted the idea that all these #1s are going to magically mesh well and thrive while only taking 10 fgas per game.  I don't believe that would be the case if we really played these games out so I wanted to target players that I know can accept the roles they'll need to accept while they're on the court with the GOAT.

I think that's a totally legitimate perspective, and it's really one of the keys to this game:  how do the players buy into the format?

I think that if we go down the "Would Player X accept a lesser role" rabbit hole, the game breaks down.  Even on your team, you've got guys like Derrick Rose and Wes Unseld coming off your bench.  Is MVP Derrick Rose going to accept playing 12 minutes?  If we take the "time machine" approach, where all these guys were transported in time to 2019 to play together, I don't think he would.  He'd be a competitive monster who not only wanted to start, but wanted the ball in his hands.

And that's not just your team, it's everybody's.  Nobody is getting enough touches, compared to their careers roles.  So, in general, I'm not going to use somebody's willingness to accept a role against them.  Even Iverson, a guy who absolutely could not accept a bench role in real life, is given the benefit of the doubt in my analysis.  I basically see this league as a 12-team league of guys who play together in 2019, raised with all of the same advantages.  Unless a guy was a hugely selfish or disruptive player, I'm not going to ding him too much about accepting a role.  Under that scenario, Derrick Rose isn't the coddled MVP who thinks the world revolves around him who would never accept a full-time bench role.  Rather, he's just another guy.

That's why I am fine with a team that has five Alphas in the starting lineup.  I assume that those guys will work it out, and the competitive fire that made them team leaders and dominant players will allow them to do whatever they need to to win.  That said, yes, players who were both dominant *and* unselfish in their primes will be given extra consideration.

Fair perspective you have there.

For me, I think the minutes thing is something D-Rose (and many other players in the game like you said) would certainly struggle with.  The other big thing many of them will have to adjust to is being productive with the change in usage.  And if we assume they will accept the decrease in usage, which it sounds like we're on the same page about as some players will better than others but let's try to give the benefit of the doubt where possible, how productive can they still be as players with that decrease in usage.  IMO, the best way to be productive without absorbing usage is 1) defense 2) providing spacing 3) rebounding/hustling 4) passing, although I'm sure there are other good ways too.

I like hearing your perspective on this game and all the teams, Roy.  Cant say that enough.

[action781]

C: Wilt Chamberlain, Robert Parish
F: Dirk Nowitzki, Ralph Sampson
F: Grant Hill, Marques Johnson
G: Paul Westphal, George Gervin
G: Walt Frazier, Terry Porter

So my idea for the team was to play through Wilt Chamberlain. I have chosen his 1967 season when he averaged 24ppg 24rpg and 7.5apg. Everything revolves around him on both ends of the court. His job is to be the facilitator on offense. To get the ball in the post (inside the defense) and share the ball with his talented teammates.

In order to play this style, I wanted a PG who could play both on and off the ball. I avoided ball-dominant PGs and prolific playmaking PGs because I wanted the ball to work through Chamberlain in the post rather than from a ball-handling PG. I also wanted a big guard to help on defense and choose Frazier over Kidd for the role due to Frazier's superior scoring prowess.

I liked how the early 70s Knicks and Lakers played. Two teams with combo guard type configurations alongside a skilled shooting SF. I did not get the shooting SF (Pierce was my target) but got a do-it-all type in Hill instead. And went with Paul Westphal as my SG. Westphal was to add more scoring punch next to Dirk and a secondary playmaker on the perimeter next to Frazier.

Dirk and Westphal are the two main scorers in the starting lineup. Wilt is probably 3rd. Frazier 4th and Hill likely 5th. The team will play a Triangle type offense (post orientated offense) based around Wilt's passing and facilitation (like he played in with Philly and later in LAL during his two title winning campaigns). I wanted to go with offensive balance to make best use of Wilt's passing.

I wanted to have 4 shooters around Wilt in the paint. Dirk at PF was a key part of that plan. Frazier and Westphal fill the roles in the backcourt. Hill didn't offer the three point shooting I wanted but he has a good long 2 and a very good midrange game. A lesser shooting threat.

Onto the bench:

George Gervin is my main scorer. He is close to unstoppable. Not sure whether he should start instead of Westphal or come off the bench. Terry Porter is another combo guard in the backcourt with a terrific jump-shot, strong D, good scoring and good playmaking. He played PG and SG during his career which makes him an ideal fit for how I want my guards to play.

Marques Johnson is a rock solid SF. Well rounded player who could shoot, drive, pass, post, defend and rebound. He had some excellent years early in his career and terrific playoff performances.

I went with the twin towers off my bench. I wanted speed. Parish was one of the best running centers in the league as a younger player. He also has a good jump-shot (which I wanted in contrast to Wilt) and great size / length defensively around the basket with good rebounding. Ralph Sampson was the 2nd best player on a team that finished runners up for the title. Highly skilled 7-4 player who liked to play like a guard but had interior skills too. I loved the idea of Sampson alongside Wilt in a super-tall lineup making it difficult for opposing teams to score inside.

Last two picks = I'll probably draft a true PF and take BPA on the perimeter.

I like that you chose to dedicate your offense to getting the ball into Wilt and working from there.  That is a strong and efficient offensive scheme and you've chosen good starting lineup players to surround Wilt for that kind of offense.

I think Frazier was a really nice choice for a strong defensive point guard who can score efficiently.  I think those types of point guards carry a lot of value in this game for team's whose offense is run through a different position.  I don't know much about Westphals' game tbh.

I think your statement about Dirk and Westphal being two main scorers is complete bologna (I mean this semi-facetiously in a nice way).  It's incredibly incredibly rare for an offense to ever "run through" a low post scorer and that guy been the 3rd scorer on the team.  Especially when that scorer is as talented of one as Wilt is.  He is your #1 scorer.  I mean Westphal never averaged more than 25.6ppg on 19.6 fga per game.  OK... now i've looked up Wilt's stats that season.  OK, I'm coming around to the idea of it.  It's hard to... and expect it to be hard to for other voting GMs... but I am coming around to it.

I feel like Dirk can score off-ball, yes, but he can score way better on-ball.  I have trouble seeing him being a "#1 scorer" while playing off-ball.  He's not really a tremendous cutter.  He doesn't fly off screens.  Is he getting 12-18 spot up jumpers a game?  I think it makes more sense to just say Wilt is your #1, but that's just me.  And why wouldn't you want such an absurdly efficient scorer taking more shots?

I think Grant Hill is a very nice jack-of-all-trades SF.  He was quite good on the second Dream Team, which I think bodes well for performance in this game alongside other all-timers.  I think he fits in nicely on this starting lineup.

Bench:
-Terry Porter is a bit of a head-scratcher for me.  Maybe I just didn't watch him enough when he was younger (I tuned into NBA in early '90s, really digging in around '94).  I think there were other guys who could play that role you're looking from him and maybe even still some.  He just doesn't impress me.
-Gervin is a great pickup and I can see operating well with Wilt or being an offensive focus when Wilt is out.
-Marques Johnson is another guy that is a head-scratcher for me.  I haven't seen him play much, but he was never a champ, his stats don't jump out at me, and his accolades are thin.  On second thought, his '79 season looks very legit stat-wise, but he didn't even make the playoffs that year.  So are you going with the playoff performances and lesser stats?  Or better stats?  Tough decision to make.  I generally side with the playoff performance.  I just have never even heard his name until now so hard for me to think much of him.
-I like Parish and Sampson.  Sampson can play off Wilt if in together.  Then if Parish is in for Wilt, just make sure Ice Man is in for the offense to run through?  That's my assumption and I like it.

Main takeaways:
-I like your starting lineup.  It's very good with good fits, although for the style you're going with your picks don't overwhelm me as being amazing.  I think there could have been 1-2 better picks and fits for your style at times.  I'd have liked a pure pure spot up shooter like Ray/Reggie/Klay on your team that you can run off flare screens while Wilt has the ball in the post, but that's just me.  Dirk particularly feels like a reach for his role.  Although you might just not have articulated your vision well enough, all I read essentially was "he won't have the ball much but he'll be the #1 scorer".  You gotta paint that picture better for me.
-I don't love your bench.  Some of that is unfamiliarity.
-I'd slide Gervin into your backup SF spot, rather than SG, if you expect Grant Hill will get the fewest minutes of your starters.
-In the end, you should probably expect your team to get compared to Shaq's team.  I haven't looked at that team yet so don't know how you compare, but I'd expect that team to have a similar offensive scheme based around slightly different but similarly effective players.  If your team can look better than that one, then it will bode well for you.
-I'll PM you some draft target ideas I'd have for your team.