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This Year's Draft
« on: August 08, 2020, 07:13:55 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I'm 100% / 200% convinced of two things:

1. This draft can set us up for a legitimate 10 year run assuming relative health for Tatum and Brown
2. I'm not sure Ainge will draft the players we need - basically big men.

My argument:
1. I realize there is a lot of small ball being played and understand it's value. We can do that in spades with the current roster.  OK, great.

2. At the end of the day, push comes to shove, it gets nasty in the paint come playoff time - always has, always will. Most championship teams have some sort of alpha dog big man plus other reasonably good additional bigs (for when it is needed)

My Draft:
17th: Jalen Smith (check out his Tankathon break down)

26th: Vernon Carey
Comment: G to tankathon.com and watch Vernon Carey's High School mix tape. He's leaner, thinner and much more athletic. I'd draft him, have him drop 20-25 pounds, get back down to 245/250 max.

30th pick:  Udoka Azubuike (Again check out his Tankathon profile)
* 6' 11", 275 lb, bouncy big man with a good motor and a 7' 7" wingspan - a willing defender. Let him hammer Embiid for 15 minutes a night.

Robert Williams / Baynes, resigned / Azubuike 
Theis / Jalen Smith / Vernon Carey   
Tatum / Hayward / Grant Williams (I'd have him slim down too)
Brown / Langford / Javonte Green
Kemba / Smart / Wanamaker

This team could go massively big and could clearly still play small ball as well as anyone in the league.

It's so easy to do - Ainge will never do it. He'll draft three undersized guards, wings or Power Forwards, with marginal athleticism and short arms who can't shoot - but - play really hard...

We can argue which big men to draft but just, for the love of God, can we get some, so we can be the bullies, positions 1 through 5? They don't have to be world beaters - they just have to be solid and with a good mix of complimentary skills alongside Time Lord.

Let Smart, Langford, Brown, Tatum, Grant Willliams, Timelord, Jalen Smith, Carey, Azubuike grow together. By the time Jalen's 26 - a few years out, this team could be ridiculous.... But, Ainge will probably screw Tatum and Brown by refusing to draft big men. I'd love him to, for once, prove me wrong in this draft.     

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2020, 07:49:53 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I don’t really agree with this idea at all. Using all of our first rounders on big men would be absolutely terrible drafting. We are losing one big to FA (Kanter), so one big man makes sense.
But not one of the super limited two you’ve listed in Carey & Azubuike. Neither of those two are suited to the modern game, especially Carey as a PF. He can’t pass, shoot nor defend the perimeter.

Additionally, not many of any of the recent championship winning teams boast “alpha” big men. They rely on great guard & wing play (check) and big men who can pass, defend and shoot or rebound. Toronto with Gasol & Ibaka, Golden State with Looney / Bogut / Zaza, Miami with Anthony, San Antonio with Splitter, etc. I don’t think the premise of needing a core of 4-5 centres to win is true at all.

It’s also not a need for us. Theis is great, just undersized, and RWill is looking great. Adding a bruiser to the bench would be good, but using numerous 1st round picks on guys like that would be super wasteful. We have bigger needs in bench shooting / scoring that none of the guys you’ve listed address those
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2020, 11:42:33 PM »

Offline Somebody

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I don’t really agree with this idea at all. Using all of our first rounders on big men would be absolutely terrible drafting. We are losing one big to FA (Kanter), so one big man makes sense.
But not one of the super limited two you’ve listed in Carey & Azubuike. Neither of those two are suited to the modern game, especially Carey as a PF. He can’t pass, shoot nor defend the perimeter.

Additionally, not many of any of the recent championship winning teams boast “alpha” big men. They rely on great guard & wing play (check) and big men who can pass, defend and shoot or rebound. Toronto with Gasol & Ibaka, Golden State with Looney / Bogut / Zaza, Miami with Anthony, San Antonio with Splitter, etc. I don’t think the premise of needing a core of 4-5 centres to win is true at all.

It’s also not a need for us. Theis is great, just undersized, and RWill is looking great. Adding a bruiser to the bench would be good, but using numerous 1st round picks on guys like that would be super wasteful. We have bigger needs in bench shooting / scoring that none of the guys you’ve listed address those
To be fair Golden State had Draymond, Miami had Bosh and San Antonio had Duncan - all three of them were at least top 30 players when those teams where contending for titles (with Draymond having a very strong argument for top 10 from 2015-2017).

I do see us going the Toronto route though - grab a couple of bigs who're top 50-60 players and surround them with a platoon of situational bigs.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2020, 11:51:32 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I don’t really agree with this idea at all. Using all of our first rounders on big men would be absolutely terrible drafting. We are losing one big to FA (Kanter), so one big man makes sense.
But not one of the super limited two you’ve listed in Carey & Azubuike. Neither of those two are suited to the modern game, especially Carey as a PF. He can’t pass, shoot nor defend the perimeter.

Additionally, not many of any of the recent championship winning teams boast “alpha” big men. They rely on great guard & wing play (check) and big men who can pass, defend and shoot or rebound. Toronto with Gasol & Ibaka, Golden State with Looney / Bogut / Zaza, Miami with Anthony, San Antonio with Splitter, etc. I don’t think the premise of needing a core of 4-5 centres to win is true at all.

It’s also not a need for us. Theis is great, just undersized, and RWill is looking great. Adding a bruiser to the bench would be good, but using numerous 1st round picks on guys like that would be super wasteful. We have bigger needs in bench shooting / scoring that none of the guys you’ve listed address those
To be fair Golden State had Draymond, Miami had Bosh and San Antonio had Duncan - all three of them were at least top 30 players when those teams where contending for titles (with Draymond having a very strong argument for top 10 from 2015-2017).

I do see us going the Toronto route though - grab a couple of bigs who're top 50-60 players and surround them with a platoon of situational bigs.
No doubt, but none of those guys were the kind of big men being advocated for selection in this post. Bosh was a floor spacing do it all PF, and the other two were mobile defensive anchors with pretty special offensive skill sets who played C alongside amazing guards and wings.

I think Theis is very much in similar form to Toronto Gasol. A little lesser, but good at lots of things. I would love Baynes back, but other than that I don’t see a need for too many bruising big men. Let alone ones like Azubuike who shoot sub-40% from the FT line. Unplayable
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2020, 12:44:31 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I don’t really agree with this idea at all. Using all of our first rounders on big men would be absolutely terrible drafting. We are losing one big to FA (Kanter), so one big man makes sense.
But not one of the super limited two you’ve listed in Carey & Azubuike. Neither of those two are suited to the modern game, especially Carey as a PF. He can’t pass, shoot nor defend the perimeter.

Additionally, not many of any of the recent championship winning teams boast “alpha” big men. They rely on great guard & wing play (check) and big men who can pass, defend and shoot or rebound. Toronto with Gasol & Ibaka, Golden State with Looney / Bogut / Zaza, Miami with Anthony, San Antonio with Splitter, etc. I don’t think the premise of needing a core of 4-5 centres to win is true at all.

It’s also not a need for us. Theis is great, just undersized, and RWill is looking great. Adding a bruiser to the bench would be good, but using numerous 1st round picks on guys like that would be super wasteful. We have bigger needs in bench shooting / scoring that none of the guys you’ve listed address those
To be fair Golden State had Draymond, Miami had Bosh and San Antonio had Duncan - all three of them were at least top 30 players when those teams where contending for titles (with Draymond having a very strong argument for top 10 from 2015-2017).

I do see us going the Toronto route though - grab a couple of bigs who're top 50-60 players and surround them with a platoon of situational bigs.
No doubt, but none of those guys were the kind of big men being advocated for selection in this post. Bosh was a floor spacing do it all PF, and the other two were mobile defensive anchors with pretty special offensive skill sets who played C alongside amazing guards and wings.

I think Theis is very much in similar form to Toronto Gasol. A little lesser, but good at lots of things. I would love Baynes back, but other than that I don’t see a need for too many bruising big men. Let alone ones like Azubuike who shoot sub-40% from the FT line. Unplayable
Duncan was a pretty traditional C imo. He was a big 260-270 pound 7 footer with the wingspan of a condor and stayed in the phone booth a lot defensively (he was kind of like a mini Gobert at that point of his career after he lost his quickness), he definitely wasn't a mobile defensive anchor. His offence was also pretty traditional - a good chunk of his attacks came from rooting down defenders in the low post and tossing in hooks and fades. His passing did improve in that final stretch of his career, but it was nowhere near the likes of Draymond/Garnett.

But yeah Theis does a lot of the little things - kind of like 2014 Garnett on the Nets. Also agreed on not needing many bruising big men - I think acquiring lengthy athletes is more of a priority.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2020, 02:40:09 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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What about Jalen Smith dont you like, Goukie?

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2020, 04:16:12 AM »

Offline bopna

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Busts.

Trade all our picks for bench help. Team is already a good mixed of young and vets.

I just don't know yet if GH is still here as he can opt out...who will then be his replacement....and don't say Romeo because to me he is still very raw and could potentially still end up being a bust.

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2020, 04:24:50 AM »

Offline gouki88

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What about Jalen Smith dont you like, Goukie?
Mainly his passing, but he's someone I would like in general. I'd take him in the 20s quite comfortably. Athletic and uses it on both ends, and he is developing a perimeter shot. I don't know how many minutes there are for him here.

I prefer Paul Reed. Better rebounder and defender IMO, but more of a do-it-all forward/big
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2020, 06:17:55 AM »

Offline Rikibellevie

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I'm 100% / 200% convinced of two things:

1. This draft can set us up for a legitimate 10 year run assuming relative health for Tatum and Brown
2. I'm not sure Ainge will draft the players we need - basically big men.

My argument:
1. I realize there is a lot of small ball being played and understand it's value. We can do that in spades with the current roster.  OK, great.

2. At the end of the day, push comes to shove, it gets nasty in the paint come playoff time - always has, always will. Most championship teams have some sort of alpha dog big man plus other reasonably good additional bigs (for when it is needed)

My Draft:
17th: Jalen Smith (check out his Tankathon break down)

26th: Vernon Carey
Comment: G to tankathon.com and watch Vernon Carey's High School mix tape. He's leaner, thinner and much more athletic. I'd draft him, have him drop 20-25 pounds, get back down to 245/250 max.

30th pick:  Udoka Azubuike (Again check out his Tankathon profile)
* 6' 11", 275 lb, bouncy big man with a good motor and a 7' 7" wingspan - a willing defender. Let him hammer Embiid for 15 minutes a night.

Robert Williams / Baynes, resigned / Azubuike 
Theis / Jalen Smith / Vernon Carey   
Tatum / Hayward / Grant Williams (I'd have him slim down too)
Brown / Langford / Javonte Green
Kemba / Smart / Wanamaker

This team could go massively big and could clearly still play small ball as well as anyone in the league.

It's so easy to do - Ainge will never do it. He'll draft three undersized guards, wings or Power Forwards, with marginal athleticism and short arms who can't shoot - but - play really hard...

We can argue which big men to draft but just, for the love of God, can we get some, so we can be the bullies, positions 1 through 5? They don't have to be world beaters - they just have to be solid and with a good mix of complimentary skills alongside Time Lord.

Let Smart, Langford, Brown, Tatum, Grant Willliams, Timelord, Jalen Smith, Carey, Azubuike grow together. By the time Jalen's 26 - a few years out, this team could be ridiculous.... But, Ainge will probably screw Tatum and Brown by refusing to draft big men. I'd love him to, for once, prove me wrong in this draft.   

Ah I thought in France we were champions of people who think they think better than professional coaches, managers... Danny probably didn't make always good decisions... He passed on Giannis like half of the ther GM of the league... Drafting a big propsect with one or maybe two of our picks why not... But

I am not sold at all on the possibilities of bigs in this draft at our ranks. The only name of your proposition who is a solid hope to impose as an NBA player is J Smith... We could try to developp Poku or P Williams or even Stewart ho felt a lot on the boards, we could take a men who can a little contribute now as Reed. Your two others propositions, the probabilitys that they won't adapt to NBA are huge (weight; quickness for Carney, technic for Azubikie). So I don't see on your post a reason to criticize Ainge in comparaison with your propositions. If he seems sometimes obsessed with forwards it is also because forward are mainly the key for titles. And we have already two hopes inside with G Will and TL. We may still try to find a taller, different style center for future, but it's not in drafting 3 that we will progress (how to developp 5 or 6 young interior, most of them very raw, prospects at the same time ?) So for me I ould be OK with drafting one big with one pick (but more with our pick than Memphis, as we could still take Reed, Poku or Stewart) or trading picks for a good inside veteran, esp if Kanter leaves.

Personnaly I have many times criticize Ainge decisions but mostly after years I ecognise he was right and I was wrong. He isn't the best drafter, but not the worst and probably better than any of us, as spectators. So, whatever I will trust in Ainge decisions more than in my much less objectiv thoughts.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 06:25:05 AM by Rikibellevie »

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2020, 08:54:27 AM »

Offline Somebody

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What about Jalen Smith dont you like, Goukie?
Mainly his passing, but he's someone I would like in general. I'd take him in the 20s quite comfortably. Athletic and uses it on both ends, and he is developing a perimeter shot. I don't know how many minutes there are for him here.

I prefer Paul Reed. Better rebounder and defender IMO, but more of a do-it-all forward/big
Any potential Sheed/Garnett types in this draft, Gouk :laugh:
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2020, 11:06:57 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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I admit I do not watch NCAA  ball enough to know about the draft. The players discussed look good to me but the draft projections have them late first and second round. Who are the top propect big men in the draft so I can go look at their highlights. Better still what is a good site to find the top prospects.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 02:17:30 PM by Ogaju »

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2020, 11:25:08 AM »

Offline JBcat

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I don’t really agree with this idea at all. Using all of our first rounders on big men would be absolutely terrible drafting. We are losing one big to FA (Kanter), so one big man makes sense.
But not one of the super limited two you’ve listed in Carey & Azubuike. Neither of those two are suited to the modern game, especially Carey as a PF. He can’t pass, shoot nor defend the perimeter.

Additionally, not many of any of the recent championship winning teams boast “alpha” big men. They rely on great guard & wing play (check) and big men who can pass, defend and shoot or rebound. Toronto with Gasol & Ibaka, Golden State with Looney / Bogut / Zaza, Miami with Anthony, San Antonio with Splitter, etc. I don’t think the premise of needing a core of 4-5 centres to win is true at all.

It’s also not a need for us. Theis is great, just undersized, and RWill is looking great. Adding a bruiser to the bench would be good, but using numerous 1st round picks on guys like that would be super wasteful. We have bigger needs in bench shooting / scoring that none of the guys you’ve listed address those

You think it’s a forgone conclusion Kanter is gone in free agency?  I think Kanter really enjoys being a Celtic, and I like our mix of centers.

Regarding the first post is this thread I’d rather Ainge just draft the best player or most upside available regardless of position for the draft.  Bringing back Baynes is intriguing, but he will also be 34 next year and afraid his defense might start to slip.

If you have tremendous wings like the Clippers now, the Warriors of recent times, and even going back to the Bulls of the 90s you can be a dominant team if you have big men that can basically hold the fort.  We can use our mid level exceptions from year to year, or find diamonds in the rough like Theis to tweak our centers and I would be fine with it.

I’m hoping we re-sign Hayward and roll with largely the same mix next year.   There will come a time though 2 or maybe 3 years down the road where Walker and Hayward will be exiting their primes so I’m really not opposed to drafting a PG or wing if Ainge likes the player the best.

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2020, 12:30:16 PM »

Offline hardlyyardley

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Really like Jaylen Smith's all around game

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2020, 01:00:52 PM »

Offline footey

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My priorities in this draft:

1. Future starting PG (to replace Kemba in 2 years)
2. 4/5 Big who fits Theis mold (switch defender, lateral quickness, hits open 3's); future starter or back up to RW3 (depending on latter's development)
3. Guys ready to play meaningful minutes as rookies
4. High upside
5. Shooting prowess

Some of these are mutually exclusive. We don't have draft stock to get someone who is high upside who can contribute right away. Frankly not even sure anyone in this draft fits that description.

So we that said, I would hope to get one or more of the following guys who should be available to us at our picks.

Memphis pick:  Kira Lewis (category 1),  Aron Nesmith (category 3 and 5), Saddiq Bey (category 3 and 5), Precious (category 2), Ramsey (category 3 and 5)
26th Pick: Jalen Smith (category 2), Paul Reed (category 2 and 4), Poku (category 4, would consider Memphis Pick to take him!), Terry (category 1 (maybe) and 5), RJ Hampton (category 4)
30th Pick: Xavier Tilman (category 3), Grant Riller (category 3), Jaden McDaniels (category 4), Bolmaro (value pick, doesn't fit category)
46th Pick: Nico Mannion (value pick, doesn't fit category, think he'll slide), Desmond Bane (category 3 and 5)

I don't target guys who are beyond reach, so didn't mention Vassell and Okongwu, either of whom I would consider trading up to take. Wiseman too,  obviously, but just don't think we have enough draft stock to trade up that high, especially if we end up at 16/17 with Memphis.

I am staying away from back to basket bigs, just think that would be a huge waste of a pick. Even at 46.

Re: This Year's Draft
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2020, 05:09:21 PM »

Offline gouki88

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What about Jalen Smith dont you like, Goukie?
Mainly his passing, but he's someone I would like in general. I'd take him in the 20s quite comfortably. Athletic and uses it on both ends, and he is developing a perimeter shot. I don't know how many minutes there are for him here.

I prefer Paul Reed. Better rebounder and defender IMO, but more of a do-it-all forward/big
Any potential Sheed/Garnett types in this draft, Gouk :laugh:
Ha, I wish. Okongwu is probably the best defensive big-man, but he's a little undersized (6'9 with a 7'1 wingspan), however he is a freak athlete. Super explosive on both ends, but his offensive game isn't too noteworthy. Solid FT shooter, good inside scorer, but not a very great shooter nor passer. Wiseman is the hard to read one, as he barely played in college, but he could be really something if he gets it together.
I admit I do not watch NCAA  ball enough to know about the draft. The players discussed look good to me but the draft projections have them late first and second round. Who are the top propect big men in the draft so I can go look at their highlights. Better still what is a good site to find the top prospects.
The top big-men are James Wiseman (his highlights are limited because he didn't play much), Onyeka Okongwu, Obi Toppin, Precious Achiuwa, Aleksej Pokusevski & Jalen Smith. Only the first 3 are projected to go in the lottery. Tankathon & NBADraft Net are usually good indications of where players will go, and The Stepien is my favourite for scouting reports.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)