Okafor - The Ringer (article)

[sdceltsfan]

Okafor and Saric

for

Smart or Rozier (Philly's choice), KO, Young, Boston 2018, Memphis 2019 1st


Roziers improvements make Smart or Rozier more expendable, and Jackson can fill in the 3rd string PG minutes. Between IT/Smart/Rozier.....this will likely stunt the growth of either Smart or Rozier, IMO.

Philly is in the same boat with their front court.

I would almost consider the Brooklyn 18 pick in this deal, but remove the Boston 2018 and Memphis 2019.

Is this a fair proposal?

[crimson_stallion]

We got by with Sully and one can make a strong argument that Okafor is a better player.

I think this comment here sums up the Okafor situation perfectly.

Some people here are talking about Okafor as if he is an amazing talent and a near-guaranteed future star...reality is we can't even clearly (and unquestionably) declare him to be a better player then Jared Sullinger - a guy who we just let walk for nothing so he could sign for $5M at a time when teams are throwing money at players.

Comparing Okafor to Sully - is he better?  You could ARGUE he is a better talent.  He's a better post scorer, and his size gives him greater potential in theory.  But Sully is a better shooter, a better defender, a better passer, a better rebounder - hell he is better then Okafor in every way right now EXCEPT post scoring.

I don't even know if Okafor is genuinely any more mobile or any better conditioned then Sully is.  Maybe he is, but if so it's not by much.  Both have their share of personality concerns. 

Would I take Okafor over Sully? Yes, because of his size and his youth.  But the fact that I even have to ask that question says a lot.

[crimson_stallion]

Okafor and Saric

for

Smart or Rozier (Philly's choice), KO, Young, Boston 2018, Memphis 2019 1st


Roziers improvements make Smart or Rozier more expendable, and Jackson can fill in the 3rd string PG minutes. Between IT/Smart/Rozier.....this will likely stunt the growth of either Smart or Rozier, IMO.

Philly is in the same boat with their front court.

I would almost consider the Brooklyn 18 pick in this deal, but remove the Boston 2018 and Memphis 2019.

Is this a fair proposal?

I wouldn't give up Smart / Rozier, KO and picks for Okafor.  No way in hell.

Danny wouldn't even give up the #3 for Okafor straight up.

If you want to take one of those guys (Smart/Rozier or KO) and one of the picks out then I'd consider it.

Smart, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Smart, Young, Memphis 2019 1st
Rozier, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Rozier, Young, Memphis 2019 1st
Olynyk, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Olynyk, Young, Memphis 2019 1st

Either of those 6 deals I would consider acceptable.

If they absolutely refuse to bite, then I might consider throwing in the second pick. That's it - I wouldn't budge an inch further.  If they aren't happy with that deal, then they can keep Okafor and move forward with their 4-man logjam.

[Celtics4ever]

  But Sully is a better shooter, a better defender, a better passer, a better rebounder - hell he is better then Okafor in every way right now EXCEPT post scoring.

Compares their FG% and you will find that Okafor is the better shooter.   

FG%   51%  to 44%  Okafor wins
3p%   28% to 17%   Sully wins though both are terrible and poor at spreading the floor
FT%  69% to 64%   Okafor wins

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3135048/jahlil-okafor

There is a marked difference in their FG%, neither should be shooting threes, Okafor has a slight edge in FT%, so your wrong in the every way statement.   I would agree, Sully has the better midrange.

Okafor also blocks some shots   something to the tune of 1.2 BPG to Sully .06 BPG.  Sully is slow so is Okafor.   His defense was better last year but I think Okafor with experience will improve to at least that level in a few years.   Sully was in some of our better lineups last year, but he was still the weak link in those lineups.   His D the previous year at times was terrible.   Watch the ATL series and him not even try to stop defenders and see if you still think he is the second coming of Satch Sanders.  JK.

Okafor was a rookie, to Sully's fourth year.  You presume much if you do not think a guy will be better from his rookie year.   Most do improve and it is logical to assume Okafor will as well.   His scoring was superior to Sully as well  17.5 PPG to 10.1 PPG.  I don't think that he will be a borderline all star this year or the like but that is a big difference.   I think Okafor year four stats will be better than Sully some point in the future.

Now, one has to assume you will point out that Sully played 7 less minutes per game.   But I ask you could he play more given his being overweight and poorly conditioning.   If he did he would have broke down sooner in the year.   So quite frankly that is moot.

I think this comment here sums up the Okafor situation perfectly.

Some people here are talking about Okafor as if he is an amazing talent and a near-guaranteed future star...reality is we can't even clearly (and unquestionably) declare him to be a better player then Jared Sullinger - a guy who we just let walk for nothing so he could sign for $5M at a time when teams are throwing money at players.

I am not one of those some people.   I think in some ways he would be an upgrade over Sully.  In some ways he would not, he is not the rebounder.   I never thought Sully was a borderline all star, so don't assume I do Okafor.  Four  things, I would point our here: 

1) I stated one could make a strong argument, that is not declaring him a better player.

We got by with Sully and one can make a strong argument that Okafor is a better player.

2)  Letting a guy walk who had annual conditioning problems to the point of being unrealiable, got a foot injury the year before, faded the last year due to gaining weight in the season is to be expected.   A professional athlete must have certain standards in terms of upkeep of their own body.   Keep in mind that this happened during a contract year, if he can't do it then when will he?  LETTING HIM WALK cracks me up anyways, you make it sound like he was too valuable to let go or the like.   Ainge said:

"We just feel this is the best thing for our team."

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/07/danny_ainge_after_boston_celti.html


3)   Other teams were not exactly fighting for Sully's services.   They could have offered him big bucks that we would not match but nope, some team signed him only after we cut him loose for a bargain basement contract.

4) People are saying Okafor is a worth a first.   No one in their right mind thinks that Sully is worth one now.  Only blatant homers think this folks.

Why do I feel like I just broke in a bronco?

[MBunge]

They are fine for now.  They can experiment with this for a few months.

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid
---
PF/C - Noel

Plenty of minutes for Okafor, Noel and Embiid to all get 30+

Simmons surely is the starting 4. He is never, ever going to be able to guard 1s.

Also, you have Okafor listed here as a power forward. That is a recipe for disaster, as he will be predictably awful trying to guard more mobile players out on the floor. But, in any case, his coach played him at center virtually every minute last season, and that is not likely to change.

Also, you didn't list Carl Landry, who is signed through 2017 on a good contract, a power forward who has transformed himself into a very nice stretch four;  he played rotation minutes last season, and that's not likely to disappear .

 Also, Saric, at 6'10", is not likely to be able to take on small forwards in the NBA.  A good rule of thumb here is the old tweener rule: "If you have to ask, he's a four."

Not surprisingly,  given the logjam at power forward, they let Christian Wood depart, despite a very promising season.

They'd be wise to see if Okafor improved from his rookie to sophomore season (as typically happens with 20 year olds) and whether he plays better alongside Embiid who supposedly has range.  They'd also be wise to see if Okafor flourishes with Simmons passing the ball.  Lot of stuff they can play around with.  There's not enough data yet.  They need to make educated decisions here.

So I wouldn't count on Okafor being traded for a role player.  That'd make no sense whatsoever.

 Looks like a buyer's market to me. It does look like he's got a great body, ample evidence of a work ethic, and some exceptional skills. 

They could especially use a point guard who can play off the ball.

honest to goodness folks, i love how this kid can pass the ball, but does anyone realistically think simmons can guard pgs in the nba?

next, one of the many challenges facing philly is how to give minutes to embiid (assuming he can play), noel, okafur, and simmons. oh, and possibly saric as well.

a trade would seem to be a good solution for this embarassment of tall riches. but given the offering prices for okafur, that may not work out as philly had hoped.

None of that matters right now.  They just need to develop the kids and wait out the decade-long Golden State dynasty.

Simmons doesn't need to guard opposing PG's... he just needs to be the guy controlling the ball on offense.  THey can have a smaller guy slotted in at SG (like Bayless).   

Point is, minutes aren't an issue out of the gate.  Embiid will likely be on a minute restriction.  Fans will be buying tickets.  Should be fun to watch for the time being.

How did Magic Johnson guard Point Guards? 

Have people watched Simmons play? He's pretty much Lebron without the shooting and finishing. He's athletic enough to basically guard any position. The guy is a positionless basketball player. If he puts effort on D, I wouldn't be concerned about him guarding midgets he can swat from behind like Lebron.

1.  Simmons is a pretty bad defender.  Worse, I believe, than LeBron at the same age.

2.  Even LeBron got exposed when they tried to put him on Jason Terry in the Finals that one year.  He chased him around all those picks and gassed fairly quickly.

3.  When LeBron guarded a healthy Derrick Rose in the playoffs that one time, he got plenty of trapping help.  He used his size to pressure Rose, but there were other players there to prevent Rose from blowing past him.

A super-athlete with decent technique and effort can briefly guard anyone.  If LeBron tried to spend an entire game guarding John Wall or Marc Gasol, for example, he'd wind up looking pretty bad.

Mike

I disagree. We are seeing the player differently with our eyes. Not much I can do with that.

We're not seeing the player differently.  You are just ignoring everything except Simmons athleticism.

He's a bad defender.  Everyone acknowledges that.  Let's see him actually defend ONE position before assuming he can defend them all.

Mike

Not everyone acknowledges it. I don't recall any scouts really being concerned about his d.

Draftexpress did.  He has great defensive potential but was very lazy at that end of the court.

Mike

[clover]

Okafor and Saric

for

Smart or Rozier (Philly's choice), KO, Young, Boston 2018, Memphis 2019 1st


Roziers improvements make Smart or Rozier more expendable, and Jackson can fill in the 3rd string PG minutes. Between IT/Smart/Rozier.....this will likely stunt the growth of either Smart or Rozier, IMO.

Philly is in the same boat with their front court.

I would almost consider the Brooklyn 18 pick in this deal, but remove the Boston 2018 and Memphis 2019.

Is this a fair proposal?

No, that is way, way too much for Okafor. Take TR and KO out and you're getting closer, but still probably one first too many.

Edit: Oh, sorry, just seeing now that you've included Saric in there. No way does Philly move them both anyway.

[hwangjini_1]

  But Sully is a better shooter, a better defender, a better passer, a better rebounder - hell he is better then Okafor in every way right now EXCEPT post scoring.

Compares their FG% and you will find that Okafor is the better shooter.   

FG%   51%  to 44%  Okafor wins
3p%   28% to 17%   Sully wins though both are terrible and poor at spreading the floor
FT%  69% to 64%   Okafor wins

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3135048/jahlil-okafor

There is a marked difference in their FG%, neither should be shooting threes, Okafor has a slight edge in FT%, so your wrong in the every way statement.   I would agree, Sully has the better midrange.

Okafor also blocks some shots   something to the tune of 1.2 BPG to Sully .06 BPG.  Sully is slow so is Okafor.   His defense was better last year but I think Okafor with experience will improve to at least that level in a few years.   Sully was in some of our better lineups last year, but he was still the weak link in those lineups.   His D the previous year at times was terrible.   Watch the ATL series and him not even try to stop defenders and see if you still think he is the second coming of Satch Sanders.  JK.

Okafor was a rookie, to Sully's fourth year.  You presume much if you do not think a guy will be better from his rookie year.   Most do improve and it is logical to assume Okafor will as well.   His scoring was superior to Sully as well  17.5 PPG to 10.1 PPG.  I don't think that he will be a borderline all star this year or the like but that is a big difference.   I think Okafor year four stats will be better than Sully some point in the future.

Now, one has to assume you will point out that Sully played 7 less minutes per game.   But I ask you could he play more given his being overweight and poorly conditioning.   If he did he would have broke down sooner in the year.   So quite frankly that is moot.

I think this comment here sums up the Okafor situation perfectly.

Some people here are talking about Okafor as if he is an amazing talent and a near-guaranteed future star...reality is we can't even clearly (and unquestionably) declare him to be a better player then Jared Sullinger - a guy who we just let walk for nothing so he could sign for $5M at a time when teams are throwing money at players.

I am not one of those some people.   I think in some ways he would be an upgrade over Sully.  In some ways he would not, he is not the rebounder.   I never thought Sully was a borderline all star, so don't assume I do Okafor.  Four  things, I would point our here: 

1) I stated one could make a strong argument, that is not declaring him a better player.

We got by with Sully and one can make a strong argument that Okafor is a better player.

2)  Letting a guy walk who had annual conditioning problems to the point of being unrealiable, got a foot injury the year before, faded the last year due to gaining weight in the season is to be expected.   A professional athlete must have certain standards in terms of upkeep of their own body.   Keep in mind that this happened during a contract year, if he can't do it then when will he?  LETTING HIM WALK cracks me up anyways, you make it sound like he was too valuable to let go or the like.   Ainge said:

"We just feel this is the best thing for our team."

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/07/danny_ainge_after_boston_celti.html


3)   Other teams were not exactly fighting for Sully's services.   They could have offered him big bucks that we would not match but nope, some team signed him only after we cut him loose for a bargain basement contract.

4) People are saying Okafor is a worth a first.   No one in their right mind thinks that Sully is worth one now.  Only blatant homers think this folks.

Why do I feel like I just broke in a bronco?

Great post c4e. Very well thought out, well argued, good research, and it was even respectful.  I enjoyed reading it and learned from it. Thanks and a tp.

[tankcity!]

They are fine for now.  They can experiment with this for a few months.

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid
---
PF/C - Noel

Plenty of minutes for Okafor, Noel and Embiid to all get 30+

Simmons surely is the starting 4. He is never, ever going to be able to guard 1s.

Also, you have Okafor listed here as a power forward. That is a recipe for disaster, as he will be predictably awful trying to guard more mobile players out on the floor. But, in any case, his coach played him at center virtually every minute last season, and that is not likely to change.

Also, you didn't list Carl Landry, who is signed through 2017 on a good contract, a power forward who has transformed himself into a very nice stretch four;  he played rotation minutes last season, and that's not likely to disappear .

 Also, Saric, at 6'10", is not likely to be able to take on small forwards in the NBA.  A good rule of thumb here is the old tweener rule: "If you have to ask, he's a four."

Not surprisingly,  given the logjam at power forward, they let Christian Wood depart, despite a very promising season.

They'd be wise to see if Okafor improved from his rookie to sophomore season (as typically happens with 20 year olds) and whether he plays better alongside Embiid who supposedly has range.  They'd also be wise to see if Okafor flourishes with Simmons passing the ball.  Lot of stuff they can play around with.  There's not enough data yet.  They need to make educated decisions here.

So I wouldn't count on Okafor being traded for a role player.  That'd make no sense whatsoever.

 Looks like a buyer's market to me. It does look like he's got a great body, ample evidence of a work ethic, and some exceptional skills. 

They could especially use a point guard who can play off the ball.

honest to goodness folks, i love how this kid can pass the ball, but does anyone realistically think simmons can guard pgs in the nba?

next, one of the many challenges facing philly is how to give minutes to embiid (assuming he can play), noel, okafur, and simmons. oh, and possibly saric as well.

a trade would seem to be a good solution for this embarassment of tall riches. but given the offering prices for okafur, that may not work out as philly had hoped.

None of that matters right now.  They just need to develop the kids and wait out the decade-long Golden State dynasty.

Simmons doesn't need to guard opposing PG's... he just needs to be the guy controlling the ball on offense.  THey can have a smaller guy slotted in at SG (like Bayless).   

Point is, minutes aren't an issue out of the gate.  Embiid will likely be on a minute restriction.  Fans will be buying tickets.  Should be fun to watch for the time being.

How did Magic Johnson guard Point Guards? 

Have people watched Simmons play? He's pretty much Lebron without the shooting and finishing. He's athletic enough to basically guard any position. The guy is a positionless basketball player. If he puts effort on D, I wouldn't be concerned about him guarding midgets he can swat from behind like Lebron.

1.  Simmons is a pretty bad defender.  Worse, I believe, than LeBron at the same age.

2.  Even LeBron got exposed when they tried to put him on Jason Terry in the Finals that one year.  He chased him around all those picks and gassed fairly quickly.

3.  When LeBron guarded a healthy Derrick Rose in the playoffs that one time, he got plenty of trapping help.  He used his size to pressure Rose, but there were other players there to prevent Rose from blowing past him.

A super-athlete with decent technique and effort can briefly guard anyone.  If LeBron tried to spend an entire game guarding John Wall or Marc Gasol, for example, he'd wind up looking pretty bad.

Mike

I disagree. We are seeing the player differently with our eyes. Not much I can do with that.

We're not seeing the player differently.  You are just ignoring everything except Simmons athleticism.

He's a bad defender.  Everyone acknowledges that.  Let's see him actually defend ONE position before assuming he can defend them all.

Mike

Not everyone acknowledges it. I don't recall any scouts really being concerned about his d. Anyways, it's hard for me to take what he did in college seriously. We'll just have to wait and see this year. I think he will prove to be a good defender and you don't.

Unless you're talking about a certain appendage , ahaha , I'm pretty sure that Okafor's defense was seen as a major weakness coming out of college, but I'm probably wrong .

In fact you're right.  See, for example, Mike Schmitz' "Jahlil Okafor: Weaknesses" scouting video that was posted on Draft Express.  Also cited as his weaknesses in addition to defense: rebounding, shooting stroke, and explosiveness.

What are you guys talking about? Me and the poster were talking about Ben Simmons...

[sdceltsfan]

Okafor and Saric

for

Smart or Rozier (Philly's choice), KO, Young, Boston 2018, Memphis 2019 1st


Roziers improvements make Smart or Rozier more expendable, and Jackson can fill in the 3rd string PG minutes. Between IT/Smart/Rozier.....this will likely stunt the growth of either Smart or Rozier, IMO.

Philly is in the same boat with their front court.

I would almost consider the Brooklyn 18 pick in this deal, but remove the Boston 2018 and Memphis 2019.

Is this a fair proposal?

I wouldn't give up Smart / Rozier, KO and picks for Okafor.  No way in hell.

Danny wouldn't even give up the #3 for Okafor straight up.

If you want to take one of those guys (Smart/Rozier or KO) and one of the picks out then I'd consider it.

Smart, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Smart, Young, Memphis 2019 1st
Rozier, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Rozier, Young, Memphis 2019 1st
Olynyk, Young, Boston 2018 1st
Olynyk, Young, Memphis 2019 1st

Either of those 6 deals I would consider acceptable.

If they absolutely refuse to bite, then I might consider throwing in the second pick. That's it - I wouldn't budge an inch further.  If they aren't happy with that deal, then they can keep Okafor and move forward with their 4-man logjam.

I didn't just propose a trade for Okafor. I also included Saric, who I think would be a great 3/4 spacer/shooter. Jerbeko but way more athletic and efficient.

I wouldn't do any of your proposed deals involving Smart for Okafor, on the premise that I wouldn't even trade him straight up for Okafor.

I think the Rozier, Young, Boston 1st is the only deal I would do for Okafor, but Philly probably thinks it's not enough.

The Olynyk trades are not worth mentioning, because they don't include a PG type player, which I guarantee is Philly's focus in any trade they do with the Celtics. They need a PG bad.


So maybe the offer of Rozier, Young, Boston 2018, Memphis 2019 for Okafor is the final offer?

The Boston pick is likely in the 20's, and the Memphis pick is so far out that it's more of a risk/reward type of sweetener.

Philly probably considers it, but may still say no.

[Future Celtics Owner]

Try to make a note of the people that would rather KO or Marcus Smart over Okafor. It makes things easier in the future to poop on them when they say your nuts.

Not nuts.  But those two players are better fits for the way that Boston plays than Okafor is.  That he's got glaring weaknesses when it comes to keeping the ball moving and playing acceptable team defense doesn't help.

BUT NBA PLAYERS ARE NOT SOLELY JODGED ON THEIR ROOKIE SEASONS, and Okafor has physical advantages and skills that the others do not have.

Very true on all points.  Probably he'll be better this upcoming season.

Towns/KP/Turner: all adjusted better to certain NBA styles bc they are not as physically strong as Okafor and so their ages and weaknesses were better suited for the first year in the league. Also they each had better teams and legit scorers on each team.

Can't understand your argument here.  He sucked, frankly; even though they designed the offense around him, they were a better offensive team with him on the bench (they were also a better defensive team with him on the bench, but presumably you would concede that).

I pm'd you. I can't force anyone that has already made their minds up to see that Okafor is extremely undervalued. It would be nice to talk and answer any questions you might have through the PM.

BTW I really put myself out there when Myles Turner was undervalued at UT for some of the very same things. Again I was called nuts and reminded this was not nba2k whatever. I can say without bias that over the last 3-5 seasons I've picked better than most scouts and people that get paid. I love scouting and I may love it more than watching a semi decent Celtic's squad filled with USURPERS LOL.

[Ilikesports17]

Try to make a note of the people that would rather KO or Marcus Smart over Okafor. It makes things easier in the future to poop on them when they say your nuts.

Not nuts.  But those two players are better fits for the way that Boston plays than Okafor is.  That he's got glaring weaknesses when it comes to keeping the ball moving and playing acceptable team defense doesn't help.

BUT NBA PLAYERS ARE NOT SOLELY JODGED ON THEIR ROOKIE SEASONS, and Okafor has physical advantages and skills that the others do not have.

Very true on all points.  Probably he'll be better this upcoming season.

Towns/KP/Turner: all adjusted better to certain NBA styles bc they are not as physically strong as Okafor and so their ages and weaknesses were better suited for the first year in the league. Also they each had better teams and legit scorers on each team.

Can't understand your argument here.  He sucked, frankly; even though they designed the offense around him, they were a better offensive team with him on the bench (they were also a better defensive team with him on the bench, but presumably you would concede that).

I pm'd you. I can't force anyone that has already made their minds up to see that Okafor is extremely undervalued. It would be nice to talk and answer any questions you might have through the PM.

BTW I really put myself out there when Myles Turner was undervalued at UT for some of the very same things. Again I was called nuts and reminded this was not nba2k whatever. I can say without bias that over the last 3-5 seasons I've picked better than most scouts and people that get paid. I love scouting and I may love it more than watching a semi decent Celtic's squad filled with USURPERS LOL.

You did a nice job on Myles Turner, and from my memory of your posts you do a really terrific job scouting but the bolded makes no Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.n sense. Many agreed Turner was in a tough situation to succeed at UT, but he could see more success at the NBA. The primary concern with him was injury and a gait that both suggested future injury and really killed lateral quickness. If people called you nuts or told you this isnt 2k it probably had very little to do with your evaluation of turner and had more to do with you probably advocating blowing up the entire team for an assortment of picks and rooks over the next few years.

Again, I think you have a terrific skill in player evaluation, but lets not confuse the criticisms levied at you.

[Ilikesports17]

They are fine for now.  They can experiment with this for a few months.

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid
---
PF/C - Noel

Plenty of minutes for Okafor, Noel and Embiid to all get 30+

Simmons surely is the starting 4. He is never, ever going to be able to guard 1s.

Also, you have Okafor listed here as a power forward. That is a recipe for disaster, as he will be predictably awful trying to guard more mobile players out on the floor. But, in any case, his coach played him at center virtually every minute last season, and that is not likely to change.

Also, you didn't list Carl Landry, who is signed through 2017 on a good contract, a power forward who has transformed himself into a very nice stretch four;  he played rotation minutes last season, and that's not likely to disappear .

 Also, Saric, at 6'10", is not likely to be able to take on small forwards in the NBA.  A good rule of thumb here is the old tweener rule: "If you have to ask, he's a four."

Not surprisingly,  given the logjam at power forward, they let Christian Wood depart, despite a very promising season.

They'd be wise to see if Okafor improved from his rookie to sophomore season (as typically happens with 20 year olds) and whether he plays better alongside Embiid who supposedly has range.  They'd also be wise to see if Okafor flourishes with Simmons passing the ball.  Lot of stuff they can play around with.  There's not enough data yet.  They need to make educated decisions here.

So I wouldn't count on Okafor being traded for a role player.  That'd make no sense whatsoever.

 Looks like a buyer's market to me. It does look like he's got a great body, ample evidence of a work ethic, and some exceptional skills. 

They could especially use a point guard who can play off the ball.

honest to goodness folks, i love how this kid can pass the ball, but does anyone realistically think simmons can guard pgs in the nba?

next, one of the many challenges facing philly is how to give minutes to embiid (assuming he can play), noel, okafur, and simmons. oh, and possibly saric as well.

a trade would seem to be a good solution for this embarassment of tall riches. but given the offering prices for okafur, that may not work out as philly had hoped.

None of that matters right now.  They just need to develop the kids and wait out the decade-long Golden State dynasty.

Simmons doesn't need to guard opposing PG's... he just needs to be the guy controlling the ball on offense.  THey can have a smaller guy slotted in at SG (like Bayless).   

Point is, minutes aren't an issue out of the gate.  Embiid will likely be on a minute restriction.  Fans will be buying tickets.  Should be fun to watch for the time being.

How did Magic Johnson guard Point Guards? 

Have people watched Simmons play? He's pretty much Lebron without the shooting and finishing. He's athletic enough to basically guard any position. The guy is a positionless basketball player. If he puts effort on D, I wouldn't be concerned about him guarding midgets he can swat from behind like Lebron.

1.  Simmons is a pretty bad defender.  Worse, I believe, than LeBron at the same age.

2.  Even LeBron got exposed when they tried to put him on Jason Terry in the Finals that one year.  He chased him around all those picks and gassed fairly quickly.

3.  When LeBron guarded a healthy Derrick Rose in the playoffs that one time, he got plenty of trapping help.  He used his size to pressure Rose, but there were other players there to prevent Rose from blowing past him.

A super-athlete with decent technique and effort can briefly guard anyone.  If LeBron tried to spend an entire game guarding John Wall or Marc Gasol, for example, he'd wind up looking pretty bad.

Mike

I disagree. We are seeing the player differently with our eyes. Not much I can do with that.

We're not seeing the player differently.  You are just ignoring everything except Simmons athleticism.

He's a bad defender.  Everyone acknowledges that.  Let's see him actually defend ONE position before assuming he can defend them all.

Mike

Not everyone acknowledges it. I don't recall any scouts really being concerned about his d. Anyways, it's hard for me to take what he did in college seriously. We'll just have to wait and see this year. I think he will prove to be a good defender and you don't.

Unless you're talking about a certain appendage , ahaha , I'm pretty sure that Okafor's defense was seen as a major weakness coming out of college, but I'm probably wrong .

In fact you're right.  See, for example, Mike Schmitz' "Jahlil Okafor: Weaknesses" scouting video that was posted on Draft Express.  Also cited as his weaknesses in addition to defense: rebounding, shooting stroke, and explosiveness.

What are you guys talking about? Me and the poster were talking about Ben Simmons...

Back to Simmons.

I think Ben can definitely be hidden on D and can learn to become a good defender in the future, but this year, on this Philly team which was proposed (Okafor at the 4, Saric at the 3, and a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ty defensive 2) they would not be able to hide him, and his inexperience would prevent him from holding his own.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

They are fine for now.  They can experiment with this for a few months.

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid
---
PF/C - Noel

Plenty of minutes for Okafor, Noel and Embiid to all get 30+

Simmons surely is the starting 4. He is never, ever going to be able to guard 1s.

Also, you have Okafor listed here as a power forward. That is a recipe for disaster, as he will be predictably awful trying to guard more mobile players out on the floor. But, in any case, his coach played him at center virtually every minute last season, and that is not likely to change.

Also, you didn't list Carl Landry, who is signed through 2017 on a good contract, a power forward who has transformed himself into a very nice stretch four;  he played rotation minutes last season, and that's not likely to disappear .

 Also, Saric, at 6'10", is not likely to be able to take on small forwards in the NBA.  A good rule of thumb here is the old tweener rule: "If you have to ask, he's a four."

Not surprisingly,  given the logjam at power forward, they let Christian Wood depart, despite a very promising season.

They'd be wise to see if Okafor improved from his rookie to sophomore season (as typically happens with 20 year olds) and whether he plays better alongside Embiid who supposedly has range.  They'd also be wise to see if Okafor flourishes with Simmons passing the ball.  Lot of stuff they can play around with.  There's not enough data yet.  They need to make educated decisions here.

So I wouldn't count on Okafor being traded for a role player.  That'd make no sense whatsoever.

 Looks like a buyer's market to me. It does look like he's got a great body, ample evidence of a work ethic, and some exceptional skills. 

They could especially use a point guard who can play off the ball.

honest to goodness folks, i love how this kid can pass the ball, but does anyone realistically think simmons can guard pgs in the nba?

next, one of the many challenges facing philly is how to give minutes to embiid (assuming he can play), noel, okafur, and simmons. oh, and possibly saric as well.

a trade would seem to be a good solution for this embarassment of tall riches. but given the offering prices for okafur, that may not work out as philly had hoped.

None of that matters right now.  They just need to develop the kids and wait out the decade-long Golden State dynasty.

Simmons doesn't need to guard opposing PG's... he just needs to be the guy controlling the ball on offense.  THey can have a smaller guy slotted in at SG (like Bayless).   

Point is, minutes aren't an issue out of the gate.  Embiid will likely be on a minute restriction.  Fans will be buying tickets.  Should be fun to watch for the time being.

How did Magic Johnson guard Point Guards? 

Have people watched Simmons play? He's pretty much Lebron without the shooting and finishing. He's athletic enough to basically guard any position. The guy is a positionless basketball player. If he puts effort on D, I wouldn't be concerned about him guarding midgets he can swat from behind like Lebron.

1.  Simmons is a pretty bad defender.  Worse, I believe, than LeBron at the same age.

2.  Even LeBron got exposed when they tried to put him on Jason Terry in the Finals that one year.  He chased him around all those picks and gassed fairly quickly.

3.  When LeBron guarded a healthy Derrick Rose in the playoffs that one time, he got plenty of trapping help.  He used his size to pressure Rose, but there were other players there to prevent Rose from blowing past him.

A super-athlete with decent technique and effort can briefly guard anyone.  If LeBron tried to spend an entire game guarding John Wall or Marc Gasol, for example, he'd wind up looking pretty bad.

Mike

I disagree. We are seeing the player differently with our eyes. Not much I can do with that.

We're not seeing the player differently.  You are just ignoring everything except Simmons athleticism.

He's a bad defender.  Everyone acknowledges that.  Let's see him actually defend ONE position before assuming he can defend them all.

Mike

Not everyone acknowledges it. I don't recall any scouts really being concerned about his d. Anyways, it's hard for me to take what he did in college seriously. We'll just have to wait and see this year. I think he will prove to be a good defender and you don't.

Unless you're talking about a certain appendage , ahaha , I'm pretty sure that Okafor's defense was seen as a major weakness coming out of college, but I'm probably wrong .

In fact you're right.  See, for example, Mike Schmitz' "Jahlil Okafor: Weaknesses" scouting video that was posted on Draft Express.  Also cited as his weaknesses in addition to defense: rebounding, shooting stroke, and explosiveness.

What are you guys talking about? Me and the poster were talking about Ben Simmons...

Back to Simmons.

I think Ben can definitely be hidden on D and can learn to become a good defender in the future, but this year, on this Philly team which was proposed (Okafor at the 4, Saric at the 3, and a ****ty defensive 2) they would not be able to hide him, and his inexperience would prevent him from holding his own.

Gerald Henderson is their starting 2...

Robert Covington is their starting 3...

Both are very good perimeter defenders. What are you talking about?

[Ilikesports17]

They are fine for now.  They can experiment with this for a few months.

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid
---
PF/C - Noel

Plenty of minutes for Okafor, Noel and Embiid to all get 30+

Simmons surely is the starting 4. He is never, ever going to be able to guard 1s.

Also, you have Okafor listed here as a power forward. That is a recipe for disaster, as he will be predictably awful trying to guard more mobile players out on the floor. But, in any case, his coach played him at center virtually every minute last season, and that is not likely to change.

Also, you didn't list Carl Landry, who is signed through 2017 on a good contract, a power forward who has transformed himself into a very nice stretch four;  he played rotation minutes last season, and that's not likely to disappear .

 Also, Saric, at 6'10", is not likely to be able to take on small forwards in the NBA.  A good rule of thumb here is the old tweener rule: "If you have to ask, he's a four."

Not surprisingly,  given the logjam at power forward, they let Christian Wood depart, despite a very promising season.

They'd be wise to see if Okafor improved from his rookie to sophomore season (as typically happens with 20 year olds) and whether he plays better alongside Embiid who supposedly has range.  They'd also be wise to see if Okafor flourishes with Simmons passing the ball.  Lot of stuff they can play around with.  There's not enough data yet.  They need to make educated decisions here.

So I wouldn't count on Okafor being traded for a role player.  That'd make no sense whatsoever.

 Looks like a buyer's market to me. It does look like he's got a great body, ample evidence of a work ethic, and some exceptional skills. 

They could especially use a point guard who can play off the ball.

honest to goodness folks, i love how this kid can pass the ball, but does anyone realistically think simmons can guard pgs in the nba?

next, one of the many challenges facing philly is how to give minutes to embiid (assuming he can play), noel, okafur, and simmons. oh, and possibly saric as well.

a trade would seem to be a good solution for this embarassment of tall riches. but given the offering prices for okafur, that may not work out as philly had hoped.

None of that matters right now.  They just need to develop the kids and wait out the decade-long Golden State dynasty.

Simmons doesn't need to guard opposing PG's... he just needs to be the guy controlling the ball on offense.  THey can have a smaller guy slotted in at SG (like Bayless).   

Point is, minutes aren't an issue out of the gate.  Embiid will likely be on a minute restriction.  Fans will be buying tickets.  Should be fun to watch for the time being.

How did Magic Johnson guard Point Guards? 

Have people watched Simmons play? He's pretty much Lebron without the shooting and finishing. He's athletic enough to basically guard any position. The guy is a positionless basketball player. If he puts effort on D, I wouldn't be concerned about him guarding midgets he can swat from behind like Lebron.

1.  Simmons is a pretty bad defender.  Worse, I believe, than LeBron at the same age.

2.  Even LeBron got exposed when they tried to put him on Jason Terry in the Finals that one year.  He chased him around all those picks and gassed fairly quickly.

3.  When LeBron guarded a healthy Derrick Rose in the playoffs that one time, he got plenty of trapping help.  He used his size to pressure Rose, but there were other players there to prevent Rose from blowing past him.

A super-athlete with decent technique and effort can briefly guard anyone.  If LeBron tried to spend an entire game guarding John Wall or Marc Gasol, for example, he'd wind up looking pretty bad.

Mike

I disagree. We are seeing the player differently with our eyes. Not much I can do with that.

We're not seeing the player differently.  You are just ignoring everything except Simmons athleticism.

He's a bad defender.  Everyone acknowledges that.  Let's see him actually defend ONE position before assuming he can defend them all.

Mike

Not everyone acknowledges it. I don't recall any scouts really being concerned about his d. Anyways, it's hard for me to take what he did in college seriously. We'll just have to wait and see this year. I think he will prove to be a good defender and you don't.

Unless you're talking about a certain appendage , ahaha , I'm pretty sure that Okafor's defense was seen as a major weakness coming out of college, but I'm probably wrong .

In fact you're right.  See, for example, Mike Schmitz' "Jahlil Okafor: Weaknesses" scouting video that was posted on Draft Express.  Also cited as his weaknesses in addition to defense: rebounding, shooting stroke, and explosiveness.

What are you guys talking about? Me and the poster were talking about Ben Simmons...

Back to Simmons.

I think Ben can definitely be hidden on D and can learn to become a good defender in the future, but this year, on this Philly team which was proposed (Okafor at the 4, Saric at the 3, and a ****ty defensive 2) they would not be able to hide him, and his inexperience would prevent him from holding his own.

Gerald Henderson is their starting 2...

Robert Covington is their starting 3...

Both are very good perimeter defenders. What are you talking about?

Ben Simmons defense came into question when a poster suggested Philly could just role out a starting lineup of

PG - Simmons
SG - Bayless/Henderson/Stauskas/Rodriguez
SF - Saric/Convington
PF - Okafor
C - Embiid

thus postponing the inevitable big man trade. This was met with the reaction that that lineup would be absolute garbage defensively because obviously Saric cant cover 3s, Okafor cant cover 4s, Embiid is a rookie and 3 of the 4 pegged to start at the 2 are also trash at defense and then Simmons wont be able to defend 1s.

I dont agree Henderson is a very good defender, but I dont care enough to really have that discussion.

I was making a pretty specific argument with regards to a hypothetical from the first page of the thread.

[ThePaintedArea]

Try to make a note of the people that would rather KO or Marcus Smart over Okafor. It makes things easier in the future to poop on them when they say your nuts.

Not nuts.  But those two players are better fits for the way that Boston plays than Okafor is.  That he's got glaring weaknesses when it comes to keeping the ball moving and playing acceptable team defense doesn't help.

BUT NBA PLAYERS ARE NOT SOLELY JODGED ON THEIR ROOKIE SEASONS, and Okafor has physical advantages and skills that the others do not have.

Very true on all points.  Probably he'll be better this upcoming season.

Towns/KP/Turner: all adjusted better to certain NBA styles bc they are not as physically strong as Okafor and so their ages and weaknesses were better suited for the first year in the league. Also they each had better teams and legit scorers on each team.

Can't understand your argument here.  He sucked, frankly; even though they designed the offense around him, they were a better offensive team with him on the bench (they were also a better defensive team with him on the bench, but presumably you would concede that).

I pm'd you. I can't force anyone that has already made their minds up to see that Okafor is extremely undervalued. It would be nice to talk and answer any questions you might have through the PM.

I'd quibble with "extremely", but I bet he is undervalued - being unable to help an epically bad team win will do that.

I love scouting and I may love it more than watching a semi decent Celtic's squad filled with USURPERS LOL.

Well, bless the scouts, so say I. The worst life and the best all rolled into one.

Can't tell what you mean by "usurpers"; maybe you're using the word wrong. I think that this Boston team has undervalued players who play with great heart and courage and have outstanding internal leadership.  That they play such good team defense despite being so young is really remarkable; it's why I started following them and posting on this board.