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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Phantom255x on April 07, 2018, 11:32:59 PM

Title: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 07, 2018, 11:32:59 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZ-2jXEXUAAzePP.jpg)

http://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/boston-celtics-announcer-mike-gorman-i-wouldnt-trade-jayson-tatum-for-kawhi-leonard

Quote
So it turns out Tommy Heinsohn isn't the only person saying no to a  Jayson Tatum-for-Kawhi Leonard trade.

Celtics play-by-play announcer Mike Gorman wouldn't do it, either.

"Jayson is a big-time talent," Gorman said Friday morning on 98.5 The Sports Hub's Toucher & Rich show. "Everybody around the league that I talk to says . . . it's going to be frightening how good he'll be in his second year."


But that's not all of it.

"There's something not right about that whole situation in San Antoni with Kawhi Leonard," Gorman said, adding: "When something goes south in an atmosphere that players thrive in, it makes you wonder."

Preach guys!  ;D

I agree. Not trading Tatum in any package for Leonard. Nope. Might not even trade Jaylen either. Way too risky, Kawhi's an expiring, and we don't even know what his injury is. Also, acquiring him may gut a good part of our team/depth. Keep the guys we have, bring a healthy Hayward and Kyrie back next year, and we could still add some pieces with Kings Pick and Grizzlies Pick going forward (and maybe scooping up guys similar to Baynes and Monroe on "cheap" contracts/exceptions for depth to support the starting lineup). I also imagine we'll bring back Smart at a reasonable rate and/or sign Terry to an extension long term (to back up Kyrie on a contending team).

Never thought I'd say that, as I view Kawhi as a Top-5 player in the league when healthy and also a little underrated (surprisingly), but that's where I am now.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Ogaju on April 07, 2018, 11:36:53 PM
In Tatum Danny found his freak. He missed on the Greek so he bet on the kid. Looks like he hit the jackpot. He is not trading Jayson.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 07, 2018, 11:39:59 PM
In Tatum Danny found his freak. He missed on the Greek so he bet on the kid. Looks like he hit the jackpot. He is not trading Jayson.

Yep, well said. Also telling that he traded down from #1 to #3 to acquire him, and even acknowledged that he was going to take Tatum #1 anyways. Glad to have him  ;D
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on April 07, 2018, 11:42:53 PM
Great...but those guys also didn't want to send Big Al for KG...Pretty sure Danny doesn't ask them. ha.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 07, 2018, 11:59:10 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 12:01:14 AM
Great...but those guys also didn't want to send Big Al for KG...Pretty sure Danny doesn't ask them. ha.

Funny enough, Mike addressed this.

Quote
Celtics’ general manager Danny Ainge once decided to take advantage of the close quarters and run an idea by the team’s play by play man.

“If you had a chance to get Kevin Garnett,” Ainge asked. “Would you give up Al Jefferson?”

Gorman said no.

Luckily for Celtics’ fans, Ainge ignored the advice and dealt Jefferson to the Timberwolves in a trade that brought Garnett to Boston. Garnett won Defensive Player of the Year as the Celtics raised Banner No. 17, while the Timberwolves wrapped up their season with a 22-60 record. Gorman called Garnett the best teammate he’s ever seen for his ability to organize, even micromanage, a locker room.

“That was the last time Danny consulted me on any potential deals,” Gorman laughed.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumo
Post by: Ogaju on April 08, 2018, 12:10:10 AM
How old is Tatum? Barely 20.

Wait until he gets on the same training program as Kawhi, LeBron, and Gianni's. All those moves to the basket that he gets knocked aside will have more succesful finishes.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: csfansince60s on April 08, 2018, 12:19:33 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.

Is he still?

Where is his head and his body for that matter?

 Given the?‘s on his mental and physical status, he’s a gamble… Not worth what he once was.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: bopna on April 08, 2018, 12:32:31 AM
Id trade JT only for AD alone..no other NBA player even if top 5 will do.. Well these top 5 are either old(lebron) or ballhog(Westbrook/Harden). So only AD suites for me.

Kawhi is a special Talent but JT with the right program and development will be the same player as KL.. Ain't gonna bother trading him for something he will becomr anyways.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Ogaju on April 08, 2018, 12:37:21 AM
Id trade JT only for AD alone..no other NBA player even if top 5 will do.. Well these top 5 are either old(lebron) or ballhog(Westbrook/Harden). So only AD suites for me.

Kawhi is a special Talent but JT with the right program and development will be the same player as KL.. Ain't gonna bother trading him for something he will becomr anyways.

Well said
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: footey on April 08, 2018, 02:33:44 AM
I think Danny would trade Jaylen for KL but for the salary problems. We have two max guys and we are adding two more after next season?  Don’t think so.

What makes KL so special is that he is the only guy on this planet who whupped Lebron Mano Mano in the finals. I know of no other player who can defend Lebron like him. Elite.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: keevsnick on April 08, 2018, 02:57:29 AM
I understand Tatum has been good this year within the role he's been asked to play, I understand he he is young and I certainly think he has a high upside, but we just don't know. Even as good as Tatum is for him to be a top five NBA player and MVP candidate he will have to improve immensley ina areas like off the dribble shoting, man to an defense, ball handling and passing. Thats not an ammount of improvemnt you just can just assume from anybody. The odds are simply aginst Tatum ever becoming as good as Leonard. Players stagnate in their devlopemnt all the time. Look at Smart, who has improved somewhat but is still largely the same player he was. Or Aaron Gordon who has made strides since his rookie seaosn but still isnt as all star. Or Wiggins who has gotten worse. Tatum reaching a super star level cannot be the assumption. And as much as I like Brown, and I'm one of his bigger supporters, the same is true of him. I hope they both get there, but its far from certain and the smart bet would be they end up soemthing less than MVP level.

That said, I still might not trade Tatum for Leonard for the reasons like more has to go out with him to make salaries work, Leonard has one year left on his deal and his injury situation is very scary to me. Or maybe its better just to hope Davis becomes available next off season. And Tatum/Brown's potential does count for something. Just dont think its a smart idea to dismiss the trade out of hand because Tatum is gonna be as good as Leonard, cuz he very well might not.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: GreenEnvy on April 08, 2018, 04:13:27 AM
On a talent standpoint, you really can’t expect Tatum to be better than Leonard. He may get as good, he may not. Kawhi is a truly exceptional player.

But, when taking into account everything (his age, contract, personality, what other players/picks it would cost, what’s going on with Kawhi), it’s very difficult to justify it.

I also think Tatum is a more unique player and not as redundant as Kawhi/Hayward would be. I feel like Kawhi is just a (marginally) better Hayward.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Bucketgetter on April 08, 2018, 04:45:43 AM
I would be open to the idea (people tend to forget how amazing Leonard is) but there's simply no need. We have plenty of other assets. If we land him, we'll be able to do so without giving up Tatum, so thankfully it won't come to Danny deciding between Tatum and Leonard.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 08, 2018, 04:49:04 AM
I would be open to the idea (people tend to forget how amazing Leonard is) but there's simply no need. We have plenty of other assets. If we land him, we'll be able to do so without giving up Tatum, so thankfully it won't come to Danny deciding between Tatum and Leonard.
Precisely. If SAS asked for Tatum I feel as if DA would say no (unless it was stupidly in our favour, but I can't imagine how). We have plenty to hypothetically offer for Kawhi.

He's a top 5 guy in the league when going. Two top 15 guys in the league + Brad + JT and whatever supporting cast is nasty
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: 2short on April 08, 2018, 06:10:21 AM
"There's something not right about that whole situation in San Antoni with Kawhi Leonard," Gorman said, adding: "When something goes south in an atmosphere that players thrive in, it makes you wonder."

This Gorman thought to me is what would give me hesitation to get him on our team.  That coupled with some injury (muscle/thigh?) that has basically kept him out for a year.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 08, 2018, 08:59:08 AM
eye on the prize

Tatum- Irving -Davis.  .....coached by CBS.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: More Banners on April 08, 2018, 09:06:44 AM
The Celtics are in the driver's seat with 3 all star max guys starting alongside two budding all star talents still on rookie deals. 5 all star talents in the starting 5. One shouldn't tinker with that. Really, it would take an Anthony Davis (replacing Horford) to improve that 5.

The bench looks pretty good if we can bring Monroe back. He's showing to fit well and be a 20/10 threat off the bench, and his passing is fantastic. And Rozier, who I'm high on, could drop 20, and Morris as well, and I like our 1-8 for a title run next year, with or without Smart.

Kawhi seems not worth the risk. We've got a good thing going.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: JBcat on April 08, 2018, 09:09:09 AM
Kawhi would give us a better shot for the title for the next couple years, but once he starts on the backside of age 30 Tatum could very well at least be his equal by then.  Then you factor other assets to get him it would be very hard for me to pull the trigger.

I’m being greedy but I want a long sustained run at contending like the Pats and Tatum and Brown give us a chance at that.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: KGBirdBias on April 08, 2018, 09:14:22 AM
Well Tatum is untouchable but I don't think Jaylen is untouchable.

If Kawhi is healthy I would explore Brown, Rozier, Smart and a premium pick for him.

Kyrie, Hayward, Kawhi, Tatum and Horford is virtually unbeatable and they can all defend various positions.

I'm not pushing for it but if he's available you have to put in some calls.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 08, 2018, 09:26:45 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 10:31:45 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 08, 2018, 10:40:13 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Right, he can be counting his money when sitting out another year from a contusion or soreness, i have no problem with that, best for him i guess

Just not on the celtics
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Ogaju on April 08, 2018, 10:57:32 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Right, he can be counting his money when sitting out another year from a contusion or soreness, i have no problem with that, best for him i guess

Just not on the celtics

Agree....you are not worth a tradenforva major asset when you have controversy swirling around you.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: PaulAllen on April 08, 2018, 11:08:34 AM
I think a Horford, Brown, Rozier, and a couple of good picks will do it (give or take)... With Kawai due for another contract the C's will have some leverage in negotiations...
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 11:16:45 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Right, he can be counting his money when sitting out another year from a contusion or soreness, i have no problem with that, best for him i guess

Just not on the celtics

Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: jambr380 on April 08, 2018, 11:27:33 AM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 08, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.
This, Kyrie is trying to come back, that's why he take the first minor surgery instead get it all done at once
And no, an infection from the plant isn't going to go away until you pull off the plant

Honestly i don't see any comparable at all
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 11:40:32 AM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.  He didn’t get an infection due to the first surgery; it was pre-existing and wasn’t causing systemic issues. It was causing local site pain.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: cman88 on April 08, 2018, 11:44:08 AM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

you also have to imagine the Celtics front office is looking at it from the perspective of the chances of us winning a championship this year vs. having Kyrie Healthy when we have Hayward back next year and can truly put together a run for banner 18.

As fun as this years team is. Once Hayward went down, I think our ceiling was limited.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 08, 2018, 11:55:49 AM
I think a Horford, Brown, Rozier, and a couple of good picks will do it (give or take)... With Kawai due for another contract the C's will have some leverage in negotiations...

First off, Horford alone makes like 10M more than Kawhi currently.

2nd, I'm not trading Horford for anyone at the moment. Looks bad to just trade away your first marquee FA signing within 2 years of his contract (Isaiah trade already looked kind of bad but at least we had traded for him originally - not signed him in FA). Also we'd have a big hole at the 4/5 without Horford. Bigger than people realize.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: td450 on April 08, 2018, 12:03:02 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Professional sports is inherently tough on a human body. All pro athletes must figure out what the wisest balance is under their particular circumstances. Being reckless is stupid, but there is no place in pro sports for an ultra conservative approach either. You have to be willing to work through a process when injured and you have to live with some level of pain if you make your living as an athlete.

We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 08, 2018, 12:03:48 PM
Great...but those guys also didn't want to send Big Al for KG...Pretty sure Danny doesn't ask them. ha.

Funny enough, Mike addressed this.

Quote
Celtics’ general manager Danny Ainge once decided to take advantage of the close quarters and run an idea by the team’s play by play man.

“If you had a chance to get Kevin Garnett,” Ainge asked. “Would you give up Al Jefferson?”

Gorman said no.

Luckily for Celtics’ fans, Ainge ignored the advice and dealt Jefferson to the Timberwolves in a trade that brought Garnett to Boston. Garnett won Defensive Player of the Year as the Celtics raised Banner No. 17, while the Timberwolves wrapped up their season with a 22-60 record. Gorman called Garnett the best teammate he’s ever seen for his ability to organize, even micromanage, a locker room.

“That was the last time Danny consulted me on any potential deals,” Gorman laughed.

LOL. So I'm probably one of the younger members on here (at the ripe age of 20), and so I was about 9-10 y/o when the 2007 trades happened.

I actually never knew Gorman was opposed to trading Jefferson in a KG deal or that Ainge had even asked him about it to "gain a feeler".  :o

But honestly I probably would have also been against it as I love every member of this team every year and consider everyone untouchable, like last year before Ainge traded A TON of guys  :laugh:
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

you also have to imagine the Celtics front office is looking at it from the perspective of the chances of us winning a championship this year vs. having Kyrie Healthy when we have Hayward back next year and can truly put together a run for banner 18.

As fun as this years team is. Once Hayward went down, I think our ceiling was limited.

Yeah, getting the surgery now instead of delaying it ensures a healthy Kyrie for training camp. I’ve got no issue with the decision at all.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Erik on April 08, 2018, 12:16:41 PM
Apples to oranges. If we had a team with 30 year old stars, like pierce and Allen, I'd swap Tatum for a top 5 player. For our current team, he's projected to be a top 20 player right around the time we're heavily favored to win titles (3 years).
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 12:22:50 PM
Quote
We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: KGs Knee on April 08, 2018, 12:25:32 PM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.  He didn’t get an infection due to the first surgery; it was pre-existing and wasn’t causing systemic issues. It was causing local site pain.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

While it may have been a matter of pain tolerance in regards to the timing of Kyrie undergoing the first surgery to remove the tension wires, undergoing the second surgery was not a matter of pain tolerance but medical prudence (it was reported the first surgery had been successful in alleviating the pain).  Leaving the screws in his knee and hoping the infection would just go away with antibiotics would have been an unwise decision, and it seems this surgery wasn't necessarily as much his choice, but the recommendation of his doctors.  This isn't a situation where the team and the player are at odds over the decision.

And ultimately, had Kyrie not elected to get the first surgery to remove the tension wires the doctors may not have discovered the infection before it became worse.  And while it could be argued he should have had both the tension wires and screws removed prior to this season, Kyrie tried to play through it until he no longer could bear the pain.

But to you larger point, regarding players playing through pain, I agree that a player needs to do what they feel is in their own best interest, even if it isn't what the team thinks is best.  It's their body, and their health.  But I do feel like in this particular case, Kyrie's decision was not only the best for him, but best for the team in the long run.  Putting it off any longer could have very well made things worse, and the Celtics medical staff seemed to agree.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 12:25:33 PM
Apples to oranges. If we had a team with 30 year old stars, like pierce and Allen, I'd swap Tatum for a top 5 player. For our current team, he's projected to be a top 20 player right around the time we're heavily favored to win titles (3 years).

Heavily favored by who?

And, Kawhi will be 29 in three years, so it’s not like he wouldn’t fit in with a Kyrie / Hayward core.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: footey on April 08, 2018, 12:29:12 PM
Quote
We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.

I agree it was mismanaged but your last sentence seems speculative. We will never know whether earlier treatment and rest would have avoided surgery at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: KGs Knee on April 08, 2018, 12:30:52 PM
But getting back on topic, in regards to Kawhi, I would not trade Tatum.  He has too much potential, and honestly I wouldn't trade him for anyone right now.

I would probably trade Brown and other assets for Kawhi, but I'd first want to understand more about what exactly is going on with that hamstring of his.  It's just strange that team doctors are saying he's fine and can't explain why Kawhi is feeling pain there still.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 01:10:51 PM
Quote
We also have no idea whether Isaiah's choices actually cost him anything or not. We will never know whether he could have avoided another incident this year by shutting it down sooner the year before, and whether he could have maintained his full level of athleticism. The more likely explanation is that the damage was gradual and inevitable

Reports are that he injured the hip in December, at which time it was misdiagnosed as a groin issue. He played through pain until March, at which point he aggravated the issue again. He played through it again, getting reinjured in the Washington series and finally being shut down completely against Cleveland.

It seems pretty clear that playing without allowing the injury time to heel is what turned it from manageable to catastrophic.  A small tear that would have healed with rest turned into a very big tear.

I agree it was mismanaged but your last sentence seems speculative. We will never know whether earlier treatment and rest would have avoided surgery at the end of the day.

Sure, just like we will never know if McHale’s career was affected by playing on a broken foot. But, we can come to rational conclusions without 100% certainty.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 08, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Boston won't  be able to acquire Kawhi without including Tatum as too many teams could easily beat any other offer.  If you don't want Kawhi that is your choice, but I personally like winning titles so I'd absolutely trade Tatum for Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought as long as Kawhi promised to extend
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: KGs Knee on April 08, 2018, 01:28:47 PM
Boston won't  be able to acquire Kawhi without including Tatum as too many teams could easily beat any other offer.  If you don't want Kawhi that is your choice, but I personally like winning titles so I'd absolutely trade Tatum for Kawhi and wouldn't give it a second thought as long as Kawhi promised to extend

I'd like to find out if this current team, when healthy, isn't already good enough to win a title.  I suspect they are, in which case, trading our best young player, and a player who I think will be a MVP level player in his prime, would be unnecessary and foolish.

Now, if you don't think the team is good enough as is, then I can understand wanting to trade Tatum for Kawhi.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 08, 2018, 01:36:34 PM
I suspect (good health, godwilling), that this team will be good enough to win a title in the next couple of years. 

League dynamic is going to start shifting from this "Lebron v. Golden State" phase pretty shortly and Boston is in prime shape to one of the teams to capitalize.

All they need is health. 

Hell, they're a mid 50 win team this season despite all the injury woes & this only being Tatum's rookie year. 

Celtics are certainly trending upwards. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 08, 2018, 02:30:27 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: bknova on April 08, 2018, 02:44:46 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 08, 2018, 02:51:05 PM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stabilityHe didn’t get an infection due to the first surgery; it was pre-existing and wasn’t causing systemic issues. It was causing local site pain.

I'am not buying this, apparently this was a pain that will affect his performance to push us to the title so he took the first and planing back in the playoff, and i'm not a surgeon but what i know they will never allow an infected plant that long because if you try to control the infection caused by a plant only using antibiotic it can ended out very ugly,like amputate or death ugly.

plus most case there needs to be a wound to get infected, so i'm not buying that too
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 08, 2018, 02:57:28 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 03:57:39 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 08, 2018, 04:39:29 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.
Did they give up a guy like Tatum for that?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 08, 2018, 04:40:02 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Roy, just curious, but IF the offer was something like Brown, Morris, Rozier, two of Ojeyele/Nader/Yabusele (salary) and 2 future 1st rounders (one being Kings Pick OR Grizzlies), AND Kawhi is willing to stay here long term, are you telling me you'd do that or no?

I'm still iffy as whatever has been bugging Kawhi (injury) has practically kept him out all season. Probably not a great sign.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: bknova on April 08, 2018, 05:35:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken Kawhi's uncle is the one calling the shots on his injury and rehab.  It doesn't seem like something Danny's really gonna go for.   Particularly when he has a two way talent in Brown who's putting up better numbers than Kawhi did when Kawhi was Brown's age.

But in the end, what do I know?  No one's offering me Danny's job.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 05:51:42 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Roy, just curious, but IF the offer was something like Brown, Morris, Rozier, two of Ojeyele/Nader/Yabusele (salary) and 2 future 1st rounders (one being Kings Pick OR Grizzlies), AND Kawhi is willing to stay here long term, are you telling me you'd do that or no?

I'm still iffy as whatever has been bugging Kawhi (injury) has practically kept him out all season. Probably not a great sign.

In a second, and I’ve been a huge Brown supporter since day one.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: blink on April 08, 2018, 06:41:33 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Roy, just curious, but IF the offer was something like Brown, Morris, Rozier, two of Ojeyele/Nader/Yabusele (salary) and 2 future 1st rounders (one being Kings Pick OR Grizzlies), AND Kawhi is willing to stay here long term, are you telling me you'd do that or no?

I'm still iffy as whatever has been bugging Kawhi (injury) has practically kept him out all season. Probably not a great sign.

In a second, and I’ve been a huge Brown supporter since day one.

So Kyrie, Kawhi, Hayward, Al & Tatum, and everything else rookie or vet min contracts gets you closer to a championship than what we have now?  That is a lot of salary loaded into 5 guys...106 mil.  If the salary cap is 108 mil how many other guys do we need to jetison? 

2018-2019 salary
KI - 19mil
Kawhi- 20mil
Hayward - 31 mil
Al - 29 mil

I am not saying I wouldn't do it.  I would be crying to trade Jaylen Brown though.  I would hate to watch him become an all-star somewhere else.  I would also be worried about us crashing and burning with an injury or two.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: ETNCeltics on April 08, 2018, 07:34:26 PM
IMO, a healthy Kawhi is as good as anyone, Lebron and Durant included.

But the fact is, his health and whatever the off the court issues are make putting a huge package out there for him a non-starter. You just can't do it.

No way I'd trade Tatum for him. Frankly, I'm having a hard time thinking what sort  of deal could pry Tatum away from Boston, at least from my perspective. I love Jaylen, but yeah, I'd consider him for KL in the right situation, but with all the questions about him, right now, I wouldn't do it.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: green_bballers13 on April 08, 2018, 08:22:23 PM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 08, 2018, 08:41:10 PM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.
Carmelo or Pierce isn't as good as Leonard will be for at least the next 5 years and Tatum is no where near that level right now. By the time he is, Horford is gone and Hayward and Irving will be at the tail end of their prime so how good is that team really. And that of course is if they are still on the team which isn't a given.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 09:54:20 PM
Quote
IMO, a healthy Kawhi is as good as anyone, Lebron and Durant included.

But the fact is, his health and whatever the off the court issues are make putting a huge package out there for him a non-starter. You just can't do it.

If Kawhi is as good as Durant or Lebron, you don’t quibble about trading a really nice prospect for him.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Beat LA on April 08, 2018, 11:30:57 PM
And we almost got through an entire season without one our best players involved in trade rumors. Sigh. #SoClose
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 08, 2018, 11:49:04 PM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Roy, just curious, but IF the offer was something like Brown, Morris, Rozier, two of Ojeyele/Nader/Yabusele (salary) and 2 future 1st rounders (one being Kings Pick OR Grizzlies), AND Kawhi is willing to stay here long term, are you telling me you'd do that or no?

I'm still iffy as whatever has been bugging Kawhi (injury) has practically kept him out all season. Probably not a great sign.

In a second, and I’ve been a huge Brown supporter since day one.

So Kyrie, Kawhi, Hayward, Al & Tatum, and everything else rookie or vet min contracts gets you closer to a championship than what we have now?  That is a lot of salary loaded into 5 guys...106 mil.  If the salary cap is 108 mil how many other guys do we need to jetison? 

2018-2019 salary
KI - 19mil
Kawhi- 20mil
Hayward - 31 mil
Al - 29 mil

I am not saying I wouldn't do it.  I would be crying to trade Jaylen Brown though.  I would hate to watch him become an all-star somewhere else.  I would also be worried about us crashing and burning with an injury or two.

Yes, trading for an MVP candidate improves the team.

Horford / Monroe
Kawhi / Theis
Tatum
Hayward
Kyrie / Smart

The team would need to use the Taxpayer MLE on a backup wing, and Wyc would need to commit to paying the tax for the foreseeable future, but that team is a contender.

I’d be equally happy with Jaylen instead of Tatum.

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 09, 2018, 12:13:26 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.

Roy, just curious, but IF the offer was something like Brown, Morris, Rozier, two of Ojeyele/Nader/Yabusele (salary) and 2 future 1st rounders (one being Kings Pick OR Grizzlies), AND Kawhi is willing to stay here long term, are you telling me you'd do that or no?

I'm still iffy as whatever has been bugging Kawhi (injury) has practically kept him out all season. Probably not a great sign.

In a second, and I’ve been a huge Brown supporter since day one.

So Kyrie, Kawhi, Hayward, Al & Tatum, and everything else rookie or vet min contracts gets you closer to a championship than what we have now?  That is a lot of salary loaded into 5 guys...106 mil.  If the salary cap is 108 mil how many other guys do we need to jetison? 

2018-2019 salary
KI - 19mil
Kawhi- 20mil
Hayward - 31 mil
Al - 29 mil

I am not saying I wouldn't do it.  I would be crying to trade Jaylen Brown though.  I would hate to watch him become an all-star somewhere else.  I would also be worried about us crashing and burning with an injury or two.

Yes, trading for an MVP candidate improves the team.

Horford / Monroe
Kawhi / Theis
Tatum
Hayward
Kyrie / Smart

The team would need to use the Taxpayer MLE on a backup wing, and Wyc would need to commit to paying the tax for the foreseeable future, but that team is a contender.

I’d be equally happy with Jaylen instead of Tatum.
That team is freakin' unstoppable.
5 37%+ shooters from three who can all pass, the best wing defender in the league, Al Horford (a strong defender himself) and a lineup who can switch on everything.

Monroe off the bench would be awesome too, assuming his supporting cast is built right
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 09, 2018, 12:59:38 AM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.

Wait what?? You'd actually *pause & consider* trading Tatum for freakin' Draymond??!?!?!??!!

Draymond?? LOL. If that's who we are trading Tatum for then I give up.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: SparzWizard on April 09, 2018, 01:22:02 AM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.

Wait what?? You'd actually *pause & consider* trading Tatum for freakin' Draymond??!?!?!??!!

Draymond?? LOL. If that's who we are trading Tatum for then I give up.

Draymond is an overrated bum who got exposed for who he is without his three buddies. I hate that guy as a person and as a player. Always like to rain on PP34 parade for no reason lol.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 09, 2018, 01:45:13 AM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.

Wait what?? You'd actually *pause & consider* trading Tatum for freakin' Draymond??!?!?!??!!

Draymond?? LOL. If that's who we are trading Tatum for then I give up.

Draymond is an overrated bum who got exposed for who he is without his three buddies. I hate that guy as a person and as a player. Always like to rain on PP34 parade for no reason lol.
TP to the both of you. Hate Draymond
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: keevsnick on April 09, 2018, 02:19:58 AM
On another note, is a Leonard trade I'd almost rather give up Tatum than Brown in some ways as i think Brown would better fit the resulting team. Tatum's would be at best the third fiddle on a team with Irving and Leonard, and probably fourth for the next couple years behind Hayward which minimizes the useful of his scoring skill. If all you are asking is to hit spot up threes and drive close outs Brown can do that well enough. In that group I'd prefer Browns ability to D up guards as well.

Listen, the bottom line is this. If the question is would you trade Brown/Tatum straight up for a healthy Leonard the right answer is yes. Guys like that just dont come along often, and teams dont win championships without at least one guy of that caliber. Ultimately if it doesn't happen I wont be upset about it either, this team will be fun to watch either way and developing Brown/Tatum is a pretty nice path forward.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 09, 2018, 03:16:20 AM
If there were no salary matching rules and no luxury tax, we’d have to make that trade. Kawhi is a top-5 player.
Top 5 players play

Eh. We saw what happened when IT played through pain. There’s probably a lesson there.  His toughness and loyalty to the team cost him tens of millions.

Conversely, we’re seeing a top-15 player (Kyrie) decide not to play through pain in order to take care of his body.

Being ultra-conservative while protecting an asset (in this case, Kawhi’s long-term health) is not necessarily a character flaw.
Wasn't it a quad thing and he was due back in January or something? I just don't see it as the same thing. I feel this is closer to holding out than being very careful. If he has to be that careful it makes me think he's injury prone.

I don't see Danny and Brad moving on a guy whose entourage calls his shots.  I imagine Pop will fix it.

Already having a two way stud like Brown who fits in with the culture the C's are building, it seems out  of character for Danny to bring in a distraction.
You bet, Brad and Pop are the commander and they will NOT allow their solders to not follow orders, no matter how good you are as a single.
That's why we traded Rondo, Passed on Cousins and Butler, it's all about team culture, ubuntu, all for one one for all, you can't be selfish and only think about your money and let your brothers die on the battlefield.

Yet they traded for a guy who forced his way off of a title contender, and traded for another guy who caused some locker room issues in Phoenix and who was facing felony assault charges.
First one i don't see problem if he is joining another title contender, apparently that team he runs away did not have ubuntu mentality
second one it's true they take on a risk, but it's a rather small one if he didn't follow order you can afford to cut him, not so for a 40+M/y one.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 09, 2018, 08:31:12 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Celtic Fan Forever on April 09, 2018, 09:09:48 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.

Strongly disagree. Kawhi is a top 5 NBA player when healthy, and all indications are that he will be next year.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 09, 2018, 09:29:48 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.
No, there isn't.

A lot of people have a top 5 of LeBron, Durant, Harden, AD and Kawhi. Not sure who else you'd put there ahead of him
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Somebody on April 09, 2018, 09:31:42 AM
AD/Giannis only, everyone else can **** off for Tatum
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 09, 2018, 09:39:53 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.

Once upon a time, Chicago fans and management took the same position with Deng and Hinrich. The Clippers decided Shaun Livingston was untouchable. Sometimes, development doesn’t work out like you’d hope.

Also, I know it’s bladphemy around here, but is Tatum head and shoulders above everyone else in the draft? He’s 6th in rookie scoring, I think. I love his feel for the game, but nothing guarantees that he’ll be an all-star, let alone an All-NBA first-teamer.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Androslav on April 09, 2018, 09:41:21 AM
AD/Giannis only, everyone else can **** off for Tatum
I felt that way a month ago.
Now...not that sure;
a franchise player,
a possible no.1 option on a contender,
with no injury history,
smart and good kid,
cost-controlled asset,
good chemistry with the rest of the team

Let's not sell our future legends.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Somebody on April 09, 2018, 09:48:57 AM
AD/Giannis only, everyone else can **** off for Tatum
I felt that way a month ago.
Now...not that sure;
a franchise player,
a possible no.1 option on a contender,
with no injury history,
smart and good kid,
cost-controlled asset,
good chemistry with the rest of the team

Let's not sell our future legends.
I was meaning that only those two wouldn't mean an immediate hang up
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: ChillyWilly on April 09, 2018, 10:18:51 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.

Once upon a time, Chicago fans and management took the same position with Deng and Hinrich. The Clippers decided Shaun Livingston was untouchable. Sometimes, development doesn’t work out like you’d hope.

Also, I know it’s bladphemy around here, but is Tatum head and shoulders above everyone else in the draft? He’s 6th in rookie scoring, I think. I love his feel for the game, but nothing guarantees that he’ll be an all-star, let alone an All-NBA first-teamer.

Did you seriously just compare Tatum to Deng Hinrich and Livingston? Even comparing the situation to that is just mind blowing. Those are rotation guys and were NEVER EVER EVER even by the mostly insanely passionate NBA fans considered generational talent.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Ed Hollison on April 09, 2018, 10:20:00 AM
Consider salaries when thinking about trading for Leonard.

Right now the Celtics are in a pretty good spot, or at least a manageable one, when it comes to the salary cap. To retain Irving, you'll have to sign him to a mega huge contract starting in 2020/21 (around $40m/year if I'm not mistaken). But the good news is that Horford's last year of his current contract is the year before, meaning that you can let him go in free agency or sign him at a reduced number and still not kill yourself in the tax. Then the next year (prior to 2021/22) both Hayward (unrestricted) and J. Brown (restricted) will be free agents, meaning you have discretion on whether or not to sign one or both. Hayward will be in his early 30s by then, so maybe you re-sign him at slightly less than the max at that point. Then the next year, prior to the 2022/23 season, Tatum is a RFA.

The point is, the Celtics are in a really good spot where they have both prime-age stars (Irving, Horford, Hayward) assisted by rookie contract stars (Brown, Tatum). As the first category's max contracts roll off, you have that second generation coming due. Leonard alters that completely. It's not to say it's a mistake, but you have to be clear that trading for him hitches the wagon completely to Irving and Leonard, especially if you're giving up Tatum in a trade.

The other thing to consider is how a lineup of Irving, Leonard, Tatum, Hayward, and Horford would match up defensively with most teams. I think all three of Leonard, Tatum, and Hayward are closer to 4s already than they are to 2s at this point in their careers, and they'll definitely trend towards being bigger and slower as they age. In other words, you basically have three biggish small forwards coupled with a below-average defensive point guard, which might get eaten up by the Lillards/McCollums and Currys/Thompsons of the world.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: ZoneD on April 09, 2018, 10:31:16 AM
If Leonard s healthy and willing to resign this is a no-brainer. He's easily a top 5-10 player in the league. He'd automatically be our best player and we'd be heavy favorites to win the East and contend for the next 5 years. How do you say no to that?

In professional sports you don't turn down a sure thing (or at least as close to a sure thing as possible). Our current team is constructed to be competitive over the next 3-5 years with Kyrie, Hayward and Horford. After that, Kyrie will be in his prime and paired with Tatum and Brown so we're definitely stacked for the future. However, adding Leonard and subtracting Tatum/Brown would make us much better prepared for the next 3-5. We would be heavy favorites to make the finals for 3-5 years. You can't say no to that!
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: ederson on April 09, 2018, 10:36:34 AM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.

Once upon a time, Chicago fans and management took the same position with Deng and Hinrich. The Clippers decided Shaun Livingston was untouchable. Sometimes, development doesn’t work out like you’d hope.

Also, I know it’s bladphemy around here, but is Tatum head and shoulders above everyone else in the draft? He’s 6th in rookie scoring, I think. I love his feel for the game, but nothing guarantees that he’ll be an all-star, let alone an All-NBA first-teamer.

Did you seriously just compare Tatum to Deng Hinrich and Livingston? Even comparing the situation to that is just mind blowing. Those are rotation guys and were NEVER EVER EVER even by the mostly insanely passionate NBA fans considered generational talent.

During their rookie season they were projected to become really good .Hinrich was good enough to play for team USA in Beijing.

And although Tatum is excellent i don't know if anyone calls him a generational talent.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 09, 2018, 10:39:28 AM
Kawhi's health & contract are my only hesitations. 

In a vacuum, you make the trade in a heartbeat.  Kawhi is a top 5 player when healthy.  You add him to Kyrie & Hayward and you have yourself one helluva new Big 3 who is probably going to bring you a title depending on the supporting cast left.

But, because of those two question marks, I'd certainly be very hesitant.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 09, 2018, 11:52:49 AM
I am a big fan of Kawhi. He's def top 10 player, but not top 5 in my eyes. There are a bunch of young guys on good deals, and Tatum is one of them. I don't think Tatum will become Jordan, but he does have Carmelo/Pierce potential. I'd hate to give up on that early.

Players I would trade Tatum for without thinking (straight up):

Lebron
KD
Steph
Harden
Westbrook
Davis
Giannis
Embiid

After this, I'm pausing to think for these guys:

Leonard
Towns
Klay
Draymond
Butler
Wall
George
Cousins
Simmons

I don't think I ever would have been this picky about Tatum before this season.

Wait what?? You'd actually *pause & consider* trading Tatum for freakin' Draymond??!?!?!??!!

Draymond?? LOL. If that's who we are trading Tatum for then I give up.

Draymond is an overrated bum who got exposed for who he is without his three buddies. I hate that guy as a person and as a player. Always like to rain on PP34 parade for no reason lol.
TP to the both of you. Hate Draymond

Same. I mean I'd love him if he were on our team lol (similar to Smart I suppose), but man the guy is overrated. Great player but again, I don't see how he's a "Top-15" talent in the NBA like some people say, or even Top-20 IMHO.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 09, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
To me Tatum is clearly the best player in his draft class and he's 20, and you have him for cheap money for years. He's basically an untouchable. If I'm gonna trade him it's not for damaged goods, it's for generational talent. Basically the names I need to be hearing on the other end need to be stuff like Anthony Davis or Durant. Not Kawhi. There's a big drop off there.

Once upon a time, Chicago fans and management took the same position with Deng and Hinrich. The Clippers decided Shaun Livingston was untouchable. Sometimes, development doesn’t work out like you’d hope.

Also, I know it’s bladphemy around here, but is Tatum head and shoulders above everyone else in the draft? He’s 6th in rookie scoring, I think. I love his feel for the game, but nothing guarantees that he’ll be an all-star, let alone an All-NBA first-teamer.

Did you seriously just compare Tatum to Deng Hinrich and Livingston? Even comparing the situation to that is just mind blowing. Those are rotation guys and were NEVER EVER EVER even by the mostly insanely passionate NBA fans considered generational talent.

During their rookie season they were projected to become really good .Hinrich was good enough to play for team USA in Beijing.

And although Tatum is excellent i don't know if anyone calls him a generational talent.

Yeah, Chilly kind of proved my point. In hindsight, it’s crazy to think of Deng, Hinrich, and Livingston as untouchable. And yet, they were, by fans and their organizations. 

Tatum isn’t “generational” at this point. He’s a rookie with great poise and a nice stroke who is averaging around 14 ppg. There is a wide, wide chasm between he and Kawhi Leonard right now. The potential seems to be there, but Gerald Green and Big Al had loads of potential, too.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: vjcsmoke on April 09, 2018, 03:30:27 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: SparzWizard on April 09, 2018, 03:36:57 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?

He's coming off of an injury, and doesn't seem mentally prepared so we won't know how good he will be again. If he can replicate his 2016 stats and performance again it would be something to think hard about.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 09, 2018, 03:53:44 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
Yes.  Absolutely.  Wouldn't give it a second thought.  I mean Boston only gives up 1 of its 3 best assets (Tatum, while keeping Brown and the Sacto pick).  I mean that is an amazing trade for Boston, especially with the Memphis pick being protected.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 09, 2018, 03:55:48 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 09, 2018, 04:06:15 PM
Is the long term health prognosis for Kawhi fine & will he resign with Boston?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 09, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
Yes.  Absolutely.  Wouldn't give it a second thought.  I mean Boston only gives up 1 of its 3 best assets (Tatum, while keeping Brown and the Sacto pick).  I mean that is an amazing trade for Boston, especially with the Memphis pick being protected.

I agree. Tatum is the only one of those guys likely to be here in two years anyway.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 09, 2018, 04:12:08 PM
Is the long term health prognosis for Kawhi fine & will he resign with Boston?
That obviously has to be the assumption on this.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 09, 2018, 04:19:42 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 09, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade.

I’d still start Brown.

Horford
Kawhi
Hayward
Brown
Kyrie

That team is potentially dominant on both ends.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 09, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade.
Kinda making some large assumptions on returning players, aren't you? You have Baynes, Monroe and Smart all returning. That's a HUGE assumption and pretty hard to do given what the Cs have to offer. It could be that none of the three return and you have Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Kawhi, Horford and nothing but scrubs. Where's the rebounding? Where is the depth? With Smart, Monroe and Baynes not returning you are actually trading your 6th, 7th, 8th and possibly 11th players in your rotation going out not the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague.

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 09, 2018, 06:20:11 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?

As much as I love Brown, I'd swap Tatum with Brown in this scenario, and to make salaries work you'd probably have to add Yabusele to the deal. (Or Yabusele + Nader/Ojeyele INSTEAD of Theis)

Still a very risky trade, and not sure I'd do it, but that's about the ballpark in terms of a "reasonable" trade offer.

If another team like Sixers or Lakers can or wants to outbid that offer for Leonard, so be it.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 09, 2018, 06:53:36 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade.
Kinda making some large assumptions on returning players, aren't you? You have Baynes, Monroe and Smart all returning. That's a HUGE assumption and pretty hard to do given what the Cs have to offer. It could be that none of the three return and you have Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Kawhi, Horford and nothing but scrubs. Where's the rebounding? Where is the depth? With Smart, Monroe and Baynes not returning you are actually trading your 6th, 7th, 8th and possibly 11th players in your rotation going out not the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague.
Monroe is the only questionable one on my mind.  Smart is restricted so Boston can match any offer and I don't see Haynes as having a market that would prove him out of Boston, though Monroe might he might not also.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 09, 2018, 07:12:28 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade.
Kinda making some large assumptions on returning players, aren't you? You have Baynes, Monroe and Smart all returning. That's a HUGE assumption and pretty hard to do given what the Cs have to offer. It could be that none of the three return and you have Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Kawhi, Horford and nothing but scrubs. Where's the rebounding? Where is the depth? With Smart, Monroe and Baynes not returning you are actually trading your 6th, 7th, 8th and possibly 11th players in your rotation going out not the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague.
Monroe is the only questionable one on my mind.  Smart is restricted so Boston can match any offer and I don't see Haynes as having a market that would prove him out of Boston, though Monroe might he might not also.

I don't think we can keep both Baynes and Monroe unfortunately, as much as I'd love to. I'm assuming one comes back though at least, and along with Theis that is still a pretty good front court (assuming Theis does as well as he did this year). Maybe they sign a cheap big w/vet. minimum OR draft one.

As for Smart, I think if Rozier gets dealt in the trade, they do everything they can to keep Smart, as you say. Truthfully, I don't see Smart's market being more than 10M/Year (if it's that high to begin with), and I'd gladly keep Smart at 4/40M with Bird Rights. Some projections say we could even keep him at 4/32M, but I'd think somewhere around 4/40M to 4/48M is the ballpark. Unless there's a team out there I don't know that loves Smart a ton and is willing to throw 15M/Year at him.

Also, I don't know if they'll be capped out for good or not, but maybe they find a way to keep Larkin on the cheap again for good depth? Otherwise, sign Jabari Bird to an NBA contract.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: vjcsmoke on April 09, 2018, 10:53:17 PM
Also, if you make the trade dealing away Tatum, how do you plan on paying Kyrie, Leonard, Hayward, and Horford?

Both Kyrie and Leonard's deals will be up in the same year right?  Do we lose Horford then.  Can we pay KI and KL both the super max?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 10, 2018, 06:25:29 AM
Also, if you make the trade dealing away Tatum, how do you plan on paying Kyrie, Leonard, Hayward, and Horford?

Both Kyrie and Leonard's deals will be up in the same year right?  Do we lose Horford then.  Can we pay KI and KL both the super max?
neither is eligible for supermax in that scenarii as they were both traded.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 10, 2018, 07:12:31 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 10, 2018, 07:28:30 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
We should consider why he's on the market.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 10, 2018, 07:36:31 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
We should consider why he's on the market.

Kyrie was on the market.

KG was on the market.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 10, 2018, 07:53:23 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
Instead of giving up a potential young, cost controlled, superstar and the bench for Kawhi, does it make sense to just trade Hayward for him? Maybe Hayward and Rozier and pick(s) for Kawhi and Mills
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 10, 2018, 07:59:14 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
We should consider why he's on the market.

Kyrie was on the market.

KG was on the market.
The reasons Kyrie and KG were on the market were well-known and understandable.  Kawhi is up for a designated veteran extension from one of the most well run and successful organizations.  If he were to force a trade at the cost of a lot of money, I think that means he's got a destination in mind which most likely isn't Boston. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 10, 2018, 07:59:58 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
Instead of giving up a potential young, cost controlled, superstar and the bench for Kawhi, does it make sense to just trade Hayward for him? Maybe Hayward and Rozier and pick(s) for Kawhi and Mills
Would be pretty hard for any future FA to commit to us long-term if we trade Hayward.

Also, I'd much rather run with a super top heavy big 3 of Kawhi/Kyrie/GH with one of Tatum/Brown (not sure which young guy you're referring to) and Al, than Kawhi and Kyrie with two young guns and Al, but with a much more solid bench.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: JBcat on April 10, 2018, 08:03:02 AM
The problem with me is Tatum is not Al Jefferson or even maybe IT the centerpieces of the KG and Irving trades.

Tatum has a strong chance of being a very long time all star starting soon at only 20 now.  Jefferson was a flawed player, and I never really truly thought of him being an star every year.  Maybe once or twice but he never really got close to that.  Yes, IT was getting MVP votes his last year with us, but he had that hip injury going into the last year of his contract pushing age 30. There was the Nets pick too, but I don’t think most of us thought it would be a top 5 pick.

Plus Leonard just sat out the entire year which is a little worrisome.  I would not be shocked if Tatum is on par with Leonard within 3 years when Leonard hits age 30.  It’s a tough call for me, but I’m leaning towards keeping Tatum.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 10, 2018, 08:04:10 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
We should consider why he's on the market.

Kyrie was on the market.

KG was on the market.
I just don't think of them as diva quitters. I also do think of Tatum as an obvious future All NBA guy. And not distant future either. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: mctyson on April 10, 2018, 08:10:02 AM
Kyrie is skipping the playoffs for what basically amounts to soreness. It’s an extremely reasonable decision, too.

I thought Kyrie was on schedule to return, but then came down with a bacterial infection and removing the screws became a very necessary decision. Was there a report that said the infection wasn't serious and he could have put off the removal of the screws?

I am not trying to put you on the spot - I just had a different understanding of what happened.

He could have put off the first surgery. He could have taken antibiotics to put off the second surgery. In each case, it was simply an issue of pain tolerance, rather than structural stability.  He didn’t get an infection due to the first surgery; it was pre-existing and wasn’t causing systemic issues. It was causing local site pain.

That’s what’s going on with Kawhi: pain that he doesn’t want to play through. Kevin McHale played through pain. So did IT. Can we blame players who don’t want to risk their future?

Of course.  Is Kawhi not being paid by the Spurs right now to play for them?  If you were a Spurs fan, you would be p---ed that he is basically ruining their chance of competing for the finals by not 'risking his future.'  He is punting on their season and it is really weird, to say the least.

And I think you give way to much credit to IT's situation last year.  He wanted badly to be the man for a playoff contender.  So he was going to play hurt, and no one was going to stop him, until he could barely run on the court.  I do not think many Cs fans would have held it against IT if he opted for labrum surgery during the season last year (at least then there is some more confidence he could return to a healthy state).

I also do not think Kyrie's situation is comparable.  It is not just about pain tolerance.  They tried an initial surgery to get him ready for the playoffs, to possibly reduce some of the pain.  From all reports thus far that seemed to work.  Unfortunately they found the possibility of a bone infection and so the screw procedure had to occur.  That second procedure was not done just because 'Kyrie cannot tolerate pain.'

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 10, 2018, 09:10:15 AM
There’s a 26 year old two-time DPOY / 1st team All-NBAer who averages 26/6 while flirting with 50/40/90 on the market. Let that sink in.
Instead of giving up a potential young, cost controlled, superstar and the bench for Kawhi, does it make sense to just trade Hayward for him? Maybe Hayward and Rozier and pick(s) for Kawhi and Mills

Not to me. Hayward is better than Tatum, and a Kyrie / Brown / Hayward / Kawhi / Horford team is good enough to win multiple titles.

I’d consider dealing Kyrie, but it’s not my first preference. The thinking would be that Rozier is an excellent defender, making our lineup lethal defensively while still having a ton of offensive pop. 

Horford
Kawhi / Morris
Hayward / Tatum
Brown
Rozier / Smart



Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Casperian on April 10, 2018, 09:40:33 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Monkhouse on April 10, 2018, 01:27:29 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: keevsnick on April 10, 2018, 01:46:32 PM
So you would give up Tatum in a trade for Leonard?

Here was the rumor/speculation that I heard:
Celtics get: Leonard. Spurs get: forward Marcus Morris, guard Terry Rozier, forward Jayson Tatum, forward Daniel Theis, 2019 top-eight protected first-round pick (from Boston, via Memphis). So, is that too steep of a price to pay for one of the NBA’s best players? Perhaps, and Leonard is just one year away from free agency. But such a deal would give Boston a starting lineup of Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Jaylen Brown and Al Horford. If you ask us, that squad could rival — and even surpass — the Golden State Warriors’ star-studded unit.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/04/should-celtics-offer-this-hypothetical-trade-for-spurs-kawhi-leonard/

4 players and a Memphis protected pick for Leonard?  Would you really do this trade?
That trade isn't able to happen. We would need to add more salary. Probably need to send Yabu too.

So

Tatum, Rozier, Morris, Theis and Yabusele plus a pick or picks

For

Kawhi.

No way. Too much.If I could trade just Tatum and picks, I woukd do it but given we would need to shred the roster and rotation to get him, I would pass.
so you wouldn't want to give up Tatum and the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague for Leonard.  That seems a bit strange to me.

So post-trade, you'd have a starting 5 of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Horford, Baynes.  The team would have Smart, Brown, and Monroe as the first 3 off the bench.  It would still have its own 2018 1st, Larkin, Semi, Nader, and Bird/Allen, plus whatever free agents could be added for the deeper bench.

I just don't get why all of the deep bench players would somehow be a deal breaker.  I like Tatum, but if Tatum is even 90% the player Leonard is, he would be a huge homerun and the odds of that happening are small.  Leonard also fits the Irving/Hayward/Horford timeline so much better, that the team has to make that trade.
Kinda making some large assumptions on returning players, aren't you? You have Baynes, Monroe and Smart all returning. That's a HUGE assumption and pretty hard to do given what the Cs have to offer. It could be that none of the three return and you have Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Kawhi, Horford and nothing but scrubs. Where's the rebounding? Where is the depth? With Smart, Monroe and Baynes not returning you are actually trading your 6th, 7th, 8th and possibly 11th players in your rotation going out not the 3rd PG, the 4th swing, the 4th big man, and a guy who spent most of the year in the GLeague.

 Even ackknowedlging the worstcase scenario, you still do that trade 100/100 times. Get the MVP player, worry about the rest later. With that lineup you are a prime destination for ring chasing veterans. How many really good teams are 10 players deep anyway? Come playoff time when your best players are going 40 minutes it matters a lot less. I'm not turning down Leonard to keep Rozier and Morris who we probably can't bring back after next year anyway.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 10, 2018, 02:00:21 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&y1=2018&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id2_select=Paul+Pierce&y2=1999&player_id2=piercpa01&idx=players

Not really “eerily the same”, for whatever it’s worth.

That said, Tatum is a starter on a quasi-contender already.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 10, 2018, 02:14:45 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&y1=2018&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id2_select=Paul+Pierce&y2=1999&player_id2=piercpa01&idx=players

Not really “eerily the same”, for whatever it’s worth.

That said, Tatum is a starter on a quasi-contender already.

And a starter on an NBA finalist next season.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Vermont Green on April 10, 2018, 02:30:02 PM
And a starter on an NBA finalist next season.

Possible, but more likely the starting 5 next season is:

Kyrie
Brown
Hayward
Horford
Some Big TBD

Tatum could well play 30 min/gm off the bench and still play a very important role.  I do not believe in playing either Tatum or Hayward as a big on a regular basis.  We need two bigs, real bigs.  Leonard is an intriguing player though.  I don't see a trade likely or needed.  If it was part of a larger trade that involved Leonard and Tatum, fine, but I would not trade them straight up (which is not a realistic trade for salary reasons anyway).
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 10, 2018, 02:51:31 PM
And a starter on an NBA finalist next season.

Possible, but more likely the starting 5 next season is:

Kyrie
Brown
Hayward
Horford
Some Big TBD

Tatum could well play 30 min/gm off the bench and still play a very important role.  I do not believe in playing either Tatum or Hayward as a big on a regular basis.  We need two bigs, real bigs.  Leonard is an intriguing player though.  I don't see a trade likely or needed.  If it was part of a larger trade that involved Leonard and Tatum, fine, but I would not trade them straight up (which is not a realistic trade for salary reasons anyway).

Could be matchup dependent but I'd have no qualms about trying to small-ballling the hell out of opponents with a Kyrie/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup on most nights.  Let teams try to adapt to that.

Either way, it's a helluva good problem to have going forward when this team is full health.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Monkhouse on April 10, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&y1=2018&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id2_select=Paul+Pierce&y2=1999&player_id2=piercpa01&idx=players

Not really “eerily the same”, for whatever it’s worth.

That said, Tatum is a starter on a quasi-contender already.

If you take a look at PER-36, it is pretty much very similar.

Obviously Tatum isn't gonna have the same exact numbers, but considering Pierce played 4 more MPG, was the main scoring option most nights, and was 2 years older than Tatum... Yes I would think it looks 'eerily,' similar to me. Pierce's numbers are also inflated, due to him playing half as less games than Tatum.

But my point is that Tatum is projected by most scouts/pundits as a more athletic Pierce.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: mctyson on April 10, 2018, 03:41:48 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 10, 2018, 04:31:39 PM
Quote
But my point is that Tatum is projected by most scouts/pundits as a more athletic Pierce.

The same pundits that had him going 5th in the draft?

Projecting a rookie to be a better version of a HOFer seems pretty speculative to me.  I won’t be shocked if he gets there, but I won’t be surprised if he falls somewhere between Corey Maggette and Jamal Mashburn, either.

And, even if he becomes Paul Pierce, that’s still not as good as Kawhi Leonard.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 10, 2018, 04:49:23 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&y1=2018&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id2_select=Paul+Pierce&y2=1999&player_id2=piercpa01&idx=players

Not really “eerily the same”, for whatever it’s worth.

That said, Tatum is a starter on a quasi-contender already.

If you take a look at PER-36, it is pretty much very similar.

Obviously Tatum isn't gonna have the same exact numbers, but considering Pierce played 4 more MPG, was the main scoring option most nights, and was 2 years older than Tatum... Yes I would think it looks 'eerily,' similar to me. Pierce's numbers are also inflated, due to him playing half as less games than Tatum.

But my point is that Tatum is projected by most scouts/pundits as a more athletic Pierce.
The less games actually deflates Pierce's numbers because he was better at the end of the year then the beginning (that was the 50 game season so Pierce only missed 2 games).  Pierce was a more consistent option for Boston, though was 3rd on the team in shots behind Toine and Mercer.  For much of the year Tatum was a role player offensively (he is 5th on the team in shots per game and just ahead of Rozier).  His shooting efficiency has gone down as his role has increased. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Monkhouse on April 10, 2018, 04:50:23 PM
Quote
But my point is that Tatum is projected by most scouts/pundits as a more athletic Pierce.

The same pundits that had him going 5th in the draft?

Projecting a rookie to be a better version of a HOFer seems pretty speculative to me.  I won’t be shocked if he gets there, but I won’t be surprised if he falls somewhere between Corey Maggette and Jamal Mashburn, either.

Sure he could... But I doubt it, considering Tatum is already a better shooter by both metrics, and Magette and Jamal were bonafide prolific scorers, but never ever became two way players which would've elevated their status higher.

Plus... If the same HoF in question is giving him a positive and ringing endorsement, I have to trust his judgement over scouts/pundits....
Quote
“He looks like an older version of me, when I started doing the step-back and stuff,” Pierce said in an exclusive interview with CSN. “When I’m watching him, he looks like a mature version of my game, like sixth, seventh, eighth year. He sees the defense. He knows what’s going to happen before it happens. He understands his position, footwork, his step-back (jumper) is there. His offensive repertoire seems complete. The sky is the limit for that kid.”

Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

 ???

I guess Paul Piece is also a 6th man on a contender...

Compare PP and JT's number, and you'll see they are eerily the same in almost every category minus the fact Tatum is 2 years younger, and already looks like he has the tools to be a superior defender.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&y1=2018&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+Pierce&player_id2_select=Paul+Pierce&y2=1999&player_id2=piercpa01&idx=players

Not really “eerily the same”, for whatever it’s worth.

That said, Tatum is a starter on a quasi-contender already.

If you take a look at PER-36, it is pretty much very similar.

Obviously Tatum isn't gonna have the same exact numbers, but considering Pierce played 4 more MPG, was the main scoring option most nights, and was 2 years older than Tatum... Yes I would think it looks 'eerily,' similar to me. Pierce's numbers are also inflated, due to him playing half as less games than Tatum.

But my point is that Tatum is projected by most scouts/pundits as a more athletic Pierce.
The less games actually deflates Pierce's numbers because he was better at the end of the year then the beginning (that was the 50 game season so Pierce only missed 2 games).  Pierce was a more consistent option for Boston, though was 3rd on the team in shots behind Toine and Mercer.  For much of the year Tatum was a role player offensively (he is 5th on the team in shots per game and just ahead of Rozier).  His shooting efficiency has gone down as his role has increased.

They are all valid points, but my statement was just in response mainly to the ridiculous notion that Tatum is a 6th man at best. Tatum could end up being a bust. But that doesn't make that outlandish statement anymore false.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Casperian on April 12, 2018, 03:57:51 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Somebody on April 12, 2018, 04:07:07 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.
Wow. How about Fultz and Lonzo? Are they future GOATs?  Also did you mean ceiling or this season lol
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: GreenEnvy on April 12, 2018, 04:26:17 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: gouki88 on April 12, 2018, 04:56:41 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
TP. Wouldn't bother though
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Eja117 on April 12, 2018, 07:18:15 AM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
I actually agree with you, but regular season record has nothing to do with whether you're a contender
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 12, 2018, 03:36:37 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/10EPwHlsBhDKDu/200.gif)
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: GreenEnvy on April 12, 2018, 04:28:25 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
I actually agree with you, but regular season record has nothing to do with whether you're a contender

Nothing? Really?

Are you just one of those that this is GSW’s world and we are all just living in it?

The Rockets are legit contenders and that’s based on their regular season dominance. I personally don’t trust D’Antoni, Harden, OR Paul, but they are most definitely contenders.

So if wins and losses are to be completely disregarded, what should be considered?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: playdream on April 12, 2018, 04:45:21 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/10EPwHlsBhDKDu/200.gif)
LoL
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 13, 2018, 05:07:26 PM
I will say this, it is such a dang shame Leonard won't play this series. If the Spurs with Leonard played a Curry-less Warriors team, I honestly think they beat them in 6 or 7.

However, I think Warriors still win this series in 6 games.

Also, even if Kawhi wanted to shut himself down for the year and come back 110% next season, shouldn't he have told this to the Spurs organization a while ago?? Idk man, the whole situation seems so bizarre. Never expected anything like this to take place with an organization like the Spurs and with such a humble superstar like Kawhi...  ???
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on April 14, 2018, 09:06:23 AM
Honestly I have a hard time letting go of JB let alone Tatum in a trade for KL.

Think like a GM. You have lesser talents (at this stage) but who have shown nothing but improvement in their short careers on cost controlled rookie scale contracts. You ha e your wing position locked down in a 3 headed monster of Tatum/Brown/Hayward.

Trading for a redundant position makes zero sense. If the player we were acquiring were Anthony Davis different story. But for KL, I just don’t see this as improving is that much on the court while dramatically reducing our salary cap capabilities.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 14, 2018, 11:48:00 AM
Honestly I have a hard time letting go of JB let alone Tatum in a trade for KL.

Think like a GM. You have lesser talents (at this stage) but who have shown nothing but improvement in their short careers on cost controlled rookie scale contracts. You ha e your wing position locked down in a 3 headed monster of Tatum/Brown/Hayward.

Trading for a redundant position makes zero sense. If the player we were acquiring were Anthony Davis different story. But for KL, I just don’t see this as improving is that much on the court while dramatically reducing our salary cap capabilities.

Honestly, I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi with slightly more athleticism.

But even at his floor, I think Jaylen would be a fringe all-star and solid starter on a contending team. (Again, as his floor)

I mean, great-to-elite two way players are honestly hard to come by these days.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 14, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
Honestly I have a hard time letting go of JB let alone Tatum in a trade for KL.

Think like a GM. You have lesser talents (at this stage) but who have shown nothing but improvement in their short careers on cost controlled rookie scale contracts. You ha e your wing position locked down in a 3 headed monster of Tatum/Brown/Hayward.

Trading for a redundant position makes zero sense. If the player we were acquiring were Anthony Davis different story. But for KL, I just don’t see this as improving is that much on the court while dramatically reducing our salary cap capabilities.

Honestly, I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi with slightly more athleticism.

But even at his floor, I think Jaylen would be a fringe all-star and solid starter on a contending team. (Again, as his floor)

I mean, great-to-elite two way players are honestly hard to come by these days.
I could easily see Jaylen being a fixture on All Defense teams starting next year. I could also see him start making All Star teams in 2-3 years. I really think Brown and Tatum should be keepers. I think they both have ceilings as top 10 players in the league.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 14, 2018, 03:22:00 PM
Honestly I have a hard time letting go of JB let alone Tatum in a trade for KL.

Think like a GM. You have lesser talents (at this stage) but who have shown nothing but improvement in their short careers on cost controlled rookie scale contracts. You ha e your wing position locked down in a 3 headed monster of Tatum/Brown/Hayward.

Trading for a redundant position makes zero sense. If the player we were acquiring were Anthony Davis different story. But for KL, I just don’t see this as improving is that much on the court while dramatically reducing our salary cap capabilities.

Honestly, I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi with slightly more athleticism.

But even at his floor, I think Jaylen would be a fringe all-star and solid starter on a contending team. (Again, as his floor)

I mean, great-to-elite two way players are honestly hard to come by these days.
I could easily see Jaylen being a fixture on All Defense teams starting next year. I could also see him start making All Star teams in 2-3 years. I really think Brown and Tatum should be keepers. I think they both have ceilings as top 10 players in the league.
and Kawhi is a top 5 player right now (or at least was before the injury)
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Bucketgetter on April 14, 2018, 04:10:28 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
You just made his point. If we're at full strength, then Tatum doesn't start. So he would be a 6th man on a contender. Lol.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: green_bballers13 on April 14, 2018, 05:16:26 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
You just made his point. If we're at full strength, then Tatum doesn't start. So he would be a 6th man on a contender. Lol.

He said "6th man on a contender, at best". I think we all know that Tatum can start on most teams now, and very soon would start on mostly any team.

The Kawhi trade to Boston idea revolves around Kawhi's health. Is Danny confident that he's going to play 70+ games for the next 5 years? If so, he'll pull the trigger on a trade for him.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 14, 2018, 05:20:04 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
You just made his point. If we're at full strength, then Tatum doesn't start. So he would be a 6th man on a contender. Lol.

He said "6th man on a contender, at best". I think we all know that Tatum can start on most teams now, and very soon would start on mostly any team.

The Kawhi trade to Boston idea revolves around Kawhi's health. Is Danny confident that he's going to play 70+ games for the next 5 years? If so, he'll pull the trigger on a trade for him.
Danny also gotta feel like Kawhi will resign in Boston. If he isn't 100% sure of that before the trade, I don't see the trade going down.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Bucketgetter on April 14, 2018, 05:40:37 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
You just made his point. If we're at full strength, then Tatum doesn't start. So he would be a 6th man on a contender. Lol.

He said "6th man on a contender, at best". I think we all know that Tatum can start on most teams now, and very soon would start on mostly any team.

The Kawhi trade to Boston idea revolves around Kawhi's health. Is Danny confident that he's going to play 70+ games for the next 5 years? If so, he'll pull the trigger on a trade for him.
Yeah but starting on a crappy team doesn't mean you're better than a 6th man for a contender. Eric Gordon is way better than a number of starters on other teams. I think what he was trying to say was if you want your team to be a contender, Tatum shouldn't be starting, he should be your 6th man.

I don't even really agree with that, I just thought it was funny that the other poster tried to argue with him, and ended up making his point.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Bucketgetter on April 14, 2018, 05:45:38 PM
Tatum is a 6th man on a contender, at best.

If you can get Kawhi, you make this trade in a heartbeat.

LOL. He started all season for the Celtics.

This team isn't a contender, they just have a few wins in the east.

Get real.

Your shtick is tiresome but it’s attention you so desperately crave, so I’ll oblige.

55 wins, 22-8 record against the West. That’s the 4th-most wins in the entire league and second-best winning percentage against the West, behind only Houston. They went 11-5 against the West’s 8 playoff teams (and 8-2 vs top-5).

All while missing their second-best player. Another 100+ games lost to injury to other key players.

If you don’t think this team at full-strength isn’t a contender, we’ll then you’re not a troll, you’re blind.
Also, you said that if he DOESN'T think that this team at full-strength ISN'T a contender, then he's blind. So that means if he does think that the healthy celtics are contenders, then he is blind. Double negative. Lol.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 14, 2018, 07:53:23 PM
Honestly I have a hard time letting go of JB let alone Tatum in a trade for KL.

Think like a GM. You have lesser talents (at this stage) but who have shown nothing but improvement in their short careers on cost controlled rookie scale contracts. You ha e your wing position locked down in a 3 headed monster of Tatum/Brown/Hayward.

Trading for a redundant position makes zero sense. If the player we were acquiring were Anthony Davis different story. But for KL, I just don’t see this as improving is that much on the court while dramatically reducing our salary cap capabilities.

Honestly, I think Jaylen's ceiling is Kawhi with slightly more athleticism.

But even at his floor, I think Jaylen would be a fringe all-star and solid starter on a contending team. (Again, as his floor)

I mean, great-to-elite two way players are honestly hard to come by these days.
I could easily see Jaylen being a fixture on All Defense teams starting next year. I could also see him start making All Star teams in 2-3 years. I really think Brown and Tatum should be keepers. I think they both have ceilings as top 10 players in the league.
and Kawhi is a top 5 player right now (or at least was before the injury)

Kawhi has also basically gone MIA on the Spurs as well.

It's one thing to be injured, but for the Spurs to not know where you are and for you to not even be with the organization during a playoff run cheering the guys on. Really?!?!

Also, you keep hearing Pop and the organization referring to it as "Kawhi and his group", which tells me his group is influencing everything and Kawhi is fine with that. I understand Kawhi is humble and not a drama queen, but the fact that he's barely said anything all season about all the drama/reports tells me something is legitimately up. Also tells me there may a red flag about him and that a trade for him is just way too risky.

And as @nickagneta said, if Ainge has even a tiny doubt about Kawhi re-signing in 2019, then he isn't considering a Kawhi trade, period. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on April 14, 2018, 08:09:13 PM
I never thought I'd say this about a Dukie but I'm not giving up Tatum in a deal for KL either.  And JB is probably our SG of the future.  I'm OK with rolling the dice on those two becoming all-star caliber players.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 15, 2018, 12:51:50 PM
I never thought I'd say this about a Dukie but I'm not giving up Tatum in a deal for KL either.  And JB is probably our SG of the future.  I'm OK with rolling the dice on those two becoming all-star caliber players.

Leonard is also 26 (going to turn 27 in June).

Meanwhile, JB is 21 years old, and Tatum just turned 20.

Keep the young core and build a long term dynasty with this group (and even if their "title window" ends in 5-7 years, they can build another one with JB and JT as they should be between 26-28 y/o by then only)
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Roy H. on April 15, 2018, 01:54:23 PM
I never thought I'd say this about a Dukie but I'm not giving up Tatum in a deal for KL either.  And JB is probably our SG of the future.  I'm OK with rolling the dice on those two becoming all-star caliber players.

Leonard is also 26 (going to turn 27 in June).

Meanwhile, JB is 21 years old, and Tatum just turned 20.

Keep the young core and build a long term dynasty with this group (and even if their "title window" ends in 5-7 years, they can build another one with JB and JT as they should be between 26-28 y/o by then only)

How many fanbases have predicted long-term dynasties due to having a couple of great building blocks, only to see those dreams shattered by the reality that most guys don’t reach their max potential?

The Celts paired Paul Pierce at various times with some combo of Antoine Walker, Joe Johnson, Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer.  Then, it was Big Al, Gerald, Tony and Delonte. All had high expectations; none of them made much noise.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 15, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
I never thought I'd say this about a Dukie but I'm not giving up Tatum in a deal for KL either.  And JB is probably our SG of the future.  I'm OK with rolling the dice on those two becoming all-star caliber players.

Leonard is also 26 (going to turn 27 in June).

Meanwhile, JB is 21 years old, and Tatum just turned 20.

Keep the young core and build a long term dynasty with this group (and even if their "title window" ends in 5-7 years, they can build another one with JB and JT as they should be between 26-28 y/o by then only)

How many fanbases have predicted long-term dynasties due to having a couple of great building blocks, only to see those dreams shattered by the reality that most guys don’t reach their max potential?

The Celts paired Paul Pierce at various times with some combo of Antoine Walker, Joe Johnson, Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer.  Then, it was Big Al, Gerald, Tony and Delonte. All had high expectations; none of them made much noise.

I just think Tatum and Brown are both really special.

See how they played today? Looked like 10 year vets out there and made big plays all throughout.

Also we saw an injured Kyrie and Smart in the building cheering the C's on. Where was Kawhi for his team's Game 1? Shouldn't he be cheering his teammates on? And now reports say he's officially out for the entire season. Looks like a red flag to me overall in this bizarre situation. Makes you wonder...
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: GreenEnvy on April 16, 2018, 01:02:24 AM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: SparzWizard on April 16, 2018, 01:07:38 AM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 16, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2018, 09:39:21 AM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: kozlodoev on April 17, 2018, 11:36:41 AM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Leonard starting at PF. Come on, man. That's worse than Crowder at PF and he's awful.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2018, 12:58:08 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Leonard starting at PF. Come on, man. That's worse than Crowder at PF and he's awful.
Have you looked around the league at the starting PF's.  Leonard or Hayward aren't that much smaller then most of them.  I mean James Johnson and Ersan Ilyasova (and I know it is Saric when Embiid is back) were the starting PF's in a playoff game.  The other game had Rudy Gay and Draymond Green as the starting PF's.  Those games aren't atypical either.  The occasional game against a team like Cousins/Davis you make a size adjustment, but by and large Leonard or Hayward would be perfectly fine starting at PF. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 17, 2018, 02:04:07 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2018, 02:35:38 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now. 
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 17, 2018, 02:40:30 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2018, 02:55:38 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
they don't have to use the MLE at all, as they can offer each 120% of their previous year salary.  That would be around 5.2 million for Baynes and 6 million for Monroe.  The taxpayer MLE is projected around 5.29 million, while the non-taxpayer MLE is projected around 8.57 million.  Assuming, Boston is a taxpayer they could sign both Baynes and Monroe and still have the taxpayer MLE to add someone else.  Now if either of those guys got offered the non-taxpayer MLE or greater from some other team, Boston wouldn't be able to match those offers anyway (assuming it is a taxpayer which it would be in this scenario).
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 17, 2018, 03:03:30 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.

You make good points, BUT it really depends how much luxury tax they have to pay.

Hypothetically, you have 4 max guys and possibly another one (whoever between Tatum/Brown stays), and another guy (or two) staying on a decent contract in Rozier OR Smart. Then of course there's the dilemma of putting together a bench with good depth options using a bunch of exceptions.

Sure, they'll be willing to go into the luxury tax, but would they be willing to dish out about as much as CLE has been paying recently or even more? Doubt it. Of course though, part of it depends on how much the max-extensions are for Kawhi+Kyrie, AND how much Smart signs for (and/or Rozier).
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: nickagneta on April 17, 2018, 04:12:15 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
they don't have to use the MLE at all, as they can offer each 120% of their previous year salary.  That would be around 5.2 million for Baynes and 6 million for Monroe.  The taxpayer MLE is projected around 5.29 million, while the non-taxpayer MLE is projected around 8.57 million.  Assuming, Boston is a taxpayer they could sign both Baynes and Monroe and still have the taxpayer MLE to add someone else.  Now if either of those guys got offered the non-taxpayer MLE or greater from some other team, Boston wouldn't be able to match those offers anyway (assuming it is a taxpayer which it would be in this scenario).
So basically you are playing semantics with the definition of MLE by including the taxpayer MLE, which you know is not what I meant, and then said you aren't going to give them the MLE just 20% raises, which I knew about, but think both will be looking for the MLE, $8.7 million or so.

Whatever Moranis. You want to play word games...have at.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2018, 08:03:18 PM
I was always for the Butler's and PG13's and even DMC's if they were available.

I am probably still on board going after Kawhi or Davis.

But, I'm totally fine if we run it back. This team may very well be good enough to win a title when healthy.

We are in a position where we don't need to overpay to get anyone.

If it's Davis then you got to really press on that deal. It's rare to get a guy on your team who could put up something like 30/20 a night or two each week.

Our bench would be awful if we even traded for Davis. Lack of depth and quality options in the bench.
I think Smart, Theis, Baynes, and Monroe would be a good starting point for a bench.  Rozier may or may not have to be included in the trade.  Larkin could be brought back.  Plus there are players like Yabu, Semi, Nader, Bird, Allen, etc. most of which would be back.

I mean Kawhi doesn't make all that much.  Boston doesn't need much past Tatum, Morris, and Yabu to get it done financially (Nader & Semi added in works for example).  Add in the Sacto pick and Boston's 2019 1st and that gets it done.

The rotation post-trade would be something like this

PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Monroe

That to me is a plenty good enough bench and an incredible starting 5.  To acquire Davis, Rozier probably needs to be in the trade (for salary), but the starting 5 is even more balanced so the C's would still make that trade.  That said, Davis won't be available, but Leonard absolutely could be.
Let's assume Rozier has to be included. If I am Pop, I want him included.

So he's not on the bench. The next year you have to max out Leonard and Irving giving you 4 max contracts. When Horford's contract runs out you have to max out Brown and still retain Horford. How exactly are you retaining Smart, Monroe and Baynes given that reality? Monroe and Baynes are both going to demand MLE money. You can't give it to both of them. Smart could get a ridiculous RFA offer. The financial reality is you most likely aren't keeping both Monroe and Baynes. And you might have to pass on Smart because he is too expensive. So the rotation looks more like this

PG - Irving, Larkin
SG - Brown
SF - Hayward, Leonard, BOS 18 rookie
PF - Leonard, Horford, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes

So a bench of Larkin, Theis, Baynes, a late 1st round rookie, Jabari Bird, Kadeem Allen and vet mins and 2nd rounders. A team that can't rebound to save its life with no bench all for a guy with at this point a massive question mark on him given his health and possible attitude problems who is extremely redundant on this team.
There is absolutely no reason at all why the team wouldn't retain Smart.  They've consistently said the luxury tax isn't a problem for a team that is a contender.  That team is a contender, so Smart easily can be retained.  And I have no idea why you think the team couldn't keep Monroe and Baynes at MLE type money.  Again, it is a luxury tax issue only and the ownership should be willing to pay the tax for a contender.  If they aren't, then we might as well give up on fielding a championship team, because it just won't happen.  I'd worry about the 19/20 season when it was that time.  No reason to make moves now that might affect the future when you have a legit contender now.
How exactly do you give one MLE to two players in the same year exactly?
they don't have to use the MLE at all, as they can offer each 120% of their previous year salary.  That would be around 5.2 million for Baynes and 6 million for Monroe.  The taxpayer MLE is projected around 5.29 million, while the non-taxpayer MLE is projected around 8.57 million.  Assuming, Boston is a taxpayer they could sign both Baynes and Monroe and still have the taxpayer MLE to add someone else.  Now if either of those guys got offered the non-taxpayer MLE or greater from some other team, Boston wouldn't be able to match those offers anyway (assuming it is a taxpayer which it would be in this scenario).
So basically you are playing semantics with the definition of MLE by including the taxpayer MLE, which you know is not what I meant, and then said you aren't going to give them the MLE just 20% raises, which I knew about, but think both will be looking for the MLE, $8.7 million or so.

Whatever Moranis. You want to play word games...have at.
Boston very possibly even without a trade will be in the luxury tax though and thus only will have the taxpayer MLE so they easily would lose both if they really want the full non taxpwt MLE
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Phantom255x on April 25, 2018, 11:26:10 AM
This playoff series is pretty much supporting the takes made by Tommy and Gorman.

Kaufman putting it wisely as well (despite some "rebuttals" made by Nick Wright lol)

https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/988137282623496192

Quote
Adam Kaufman
‏Verified account
@AdamMKaufman

You don’t trade Jayson Tatum.

You don’t trade Jaylen Brown.

Pretty simple, really. #Celtics

Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Rosco917 on April 25, 2018, 11:34:41 AM
I'd like to see a healthy version of the current roster play before we talk about breaking them up.

If Hayward and Irving come back 100% and Brown and Tatum take the next step...this team could be scary.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Donoghus on April 25, 2018, 12:00:24 PM
I'd like to see a healthy version of the current roster play before we talk about breaking them up.

If Hayward and Irving come back 100% and Brown and Tatum take the next step...this team could be scary.

That's the boat I'm in.  I think they're a legit contender next year if healthy without having to really do anything.
Title: Re: Tommy & Gorman Have Right Idea On Kawhi-to-Boston Rumors
Post by: Vermont Green on April 25, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
This playoff series is pretty much supporting the takes made by Tommy and Gorman.

Kaufman putting it wisely as well (despite some "rebuttals" made by Nick Wright lol)

https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/988137282623496192

Quote
Adam Kaufman
‏Verified account
@AdamMKaufman

You don’t trade Jayson Tatum.

You don’t trade Jaylen Brown.

Pretty simple, really. #Celtics

A little exaggerated I think.  There is not much that I would trade Brown or Tatum for but the discussion has been for guys like Davis and Leonard.  Any discussion of Davis trades are probably pointless but it seems Leonard may be in play. Until recently, Leonard was an MVP candidate and he still may be one but certainly some red flags have popped up around him.

I have no problem considering trading promising young players for in their prime MVP level players (assuming all the red flags clear).  Trading Tatum in package for Leonard makes sense as they play the same position.  Not saying I would do it but I don't classify it as untouchable.