CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Roy H. on October 16, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
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John Gambadoro: Look the Suns would have LOVED to get Rozier and he is a difference maker – him alone in my opinion makes Suns 10 games better. He is a fantastic player. But he is very very unlikely to be traded. But trust me Ryan and James both tried for Rozier before agreeing to sign Jamal.
https://twitter.com/Gambo987/status/1051900033858031616
I'm not sure if that's actual knowledge, an educated guess, or just an opinion.
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I saw some tweets from some of the national writers at the big places the other day which indicated that the Suns had tried to acquire Rozier, so I absolutely believe they at least were calling Ainge about Rozier. I got the impression they didn't want to part with a ton of value, which is different then this tweet makes it seem.
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curious to what they'd actually offer that would tempt Danny at all.
they're not moving Ayton. other than that, who else would be that tempting? just not seeing anyone who'd make more of a positive impact for us than Rozier will by keeping him.
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Maybe future picks? If they still had that Heat pick they traded to the Sixers for Bridges, that would have been good value.
Jackson would have been good value, but I don't think they would trade him and I don't think the Celtics would take him.
Bender is meh. Bridges is meh.
Okobo and Melton might have both been interesting lower-end prospects, but I don't think either is good value for Rozier.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
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I like Rozier, and I think he will be a very good player off the bench this season. However, I can't see him playing for the Celtics after this season, due to his contract demands. I would have liked to seen Danny sign Crawford to a one year deal, and trade Rozier for Mikal Bridges or Josh Jackson. Maybe Danny could have added the Clippers pick and Rozier in a Jackson deal.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
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BBall Index just became live today and they have some interesting analysis if people are interested. Below are their ratings for Rozier.
Perimeter shot A-
Off ball movement A-
One on one C-
Finishing D
Roll Gravity D+
Playmaking C+
Post play B+
Offensive Reb. B-
Perimeter defense C
Interior defense F
Defensive Reb. B
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
Just to be clear the 3 PG's on the Suns roster are Elie Okobo, De'Anthony Melton, and Isaiah Canaan. Those players are awful and probably will cost the Suns 5 games, so you add a competent PG like Rozier who adds 5 games, but also takes away the -5 games of the other guys.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, if we're talking about calculated win shares, 10 games is insane. However, I don't think win shares are literally accurate.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
Just to be clear the 3 PG's on the Suns roster are Elie Okobo, De'Anthony Melton, and Isaiah Canaan. Those players are awful and probably will cost the Suns 5 games, so you add a competent PG like Rozier who adds 5 games, but also takes away the -5 games of the other guys.
Are we sure any of those guys are actually going to start once Booker comes back? I think it's very possible they trot out a lineup with Booker and Ayton at PG and C, and Warren, Jackson and Ariza as the other 3. Maybe Bender instead of Ariza, if they haven't given up on Bender yet, also if they want to tank.
I think they either start Canaan (who you're right isn't good and would help them tank, which they can do now with McDonough out) or don't play a traditional PG.
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BBall Index just became live today and they have some interesting analysis if people are interested. Below are their ratings for Rozier.
Perimeter shot A-
Off ball movement A-
One on one C-
Finishing D
Roll Gravity D+
Playmaking C+
Post play B+
Offensive Reb. B-
Perimeter defense C
Interior defense F
Defensive Reb. B
Interesting. I would say his finishing has improved to a C. I’m not sure he’s quite at A- for perimeter shot. I’ve hardly seen him post up so I’m not sure about a B+ either. I would say at least A- for defensive rebounding for a PG.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
He isn't great at creating in the half court, but he's a great rebounder and really pushes the pace, and that makes things happen. He would be good for them.
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Booker is not a PG so they really need one..they be the one team that will overpay for Rozier
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Overpay? How?
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
That jumped out at me. Totally ridiculous claim.
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curious to what they'd actually offer that would tempt Danny at all.
they're not moving Ayton. other than that, who else would be that tempting? just not seeing anyone who'd make more of a positive impact for us than Rozier will by keeping him.
I would trade Rozier straight up for Bridges in a heartbeat. I would even throw in a minor asset or two to sweeten the deal for the Suns.
Let's say Rozier + Yabu + Celtics 2019 first for Bridges
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really want us to trade Rozier.
1. Assuming we keep Kyrie-Smart, we are gonna lose Rozier for nothing next summer.
2. Rozier is a score-first PG. He needs the ball in his hands ir order for him to be effective on offense. Problem is that we cannot have him on the ball next season:
a. Obviously, Kyrie will run the point.
b. Smart will be our backup PG. He can never play off the ball cause he is a terrible shooter.
Chances are that we 'll use Rozier as a backup to Brown. I just don't see him being effective in that role. I'd much rather trade him and replace him with a 3pt specialist to come off the bench next to Smart. Sort of like what the Sixers did last season with Belinelli.
Bridges fits the bill.
- 43.5 3P% last year in 6 attempts per game
- great length (3+D potential)
- NBA-ready (22 years old, has played 3 full seasons in college)
- under team control till 2022
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curious to what they'd actually offer that would tempt Danny at all.
they're not moving Ayton. other than that, who else would be that tempting? just not seeing anyone who'd make more of a positive impact for us than Rozier will by keeping him.
I would trade Rozier straight up for Bridges in a heartbeat. I would even throw in a minor asset or two to sweeten the deal for the Suns.
Let's say Rozier + Yabu + Celtics 2019 first for Bridges
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really want us to trade Rozier.
1. Rozier is a score-first PG. He needs the ball in his hands ir order for him to be effective on offense. Problem is that we cannot have him on the ball next season:
a. Obviously, Kyrie will run the point.
b. Smart will be our backup PG. He can never play off the ball cause he is a terrible shooter.
2. Assuming we keep Kyrie-Smart, we are gonna lose Rozier for nothing next summer.
Chances are that we 'll use Rozier as a backup to Brown. I just don't see him being effective in that role. I'd much rather trade him and replace him with a 3pt specialist to come off the bench next to Smart. Sort of like what the Sixers did last season with Belinelli.
Bridges fits the bill.
- 43.5 FG3% last year in 6 attempts per game
- great length (3+D potential)
- NBA-ready (22 years old, has played 3 full seasons in college)
- under team control till 2022
If we look like big duds in February and Bridges plays well (at 22 he has to), I guess I’d consider it.
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
He isn't great at creating in the half court, but he's a great rebounder and really pushes the pace, and that makes things happen. He would be good for them.
I know, I’m a Rozier fan, I just don’t think he adds 10 wins. I mean what does Kyrie then add, 25?
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They have no one not named Ayton or Bridges that I want. I bet Danny fell out of the chair laughing when they offered Bender. They are not going to offer Ayton or Bridges either, folks.
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I posted on this topic late this morning before this thread picked up steam:
Hi everyone. Happy Opening Day ! With all this trade talk of Rozier, i just wanted to put in my 2 cents and get everyone's opinion of it. Rozier is due for a big pay day in 9 months. Here are my thoughts as to some practical roster moves the Celtics could make.
1. Trade Rozier for Mikal Bridges. this gives Celtics insurance if Morris leaves next summer and they go into the 2019 season with a bench of Smart-Bridges-Theis-Baynes-Williams as they will already be under contract on the roster.
2. sign ramon sessions as the backup PG. sessions has excelled at times at running teams from the 2nd unit. having an experienced vet who knows his role and has done well with it would be key for a championship contender.
3. Bridges' age and career time frame fits in perfectly with Tatum, Brown, Smart, Williams.
I am surprised Ainge has not traded Rozier yet as the contract he will ask for will be too much for the Celtics payroll and his trade value might be as high as it is going to be. trading Rozier for another young player on a rookie contract for 3-4 years would help the Celtics financial flexibility. Thanks for reading and enjoy the game tonight !
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People just going to look past the 10 games better comment?!? That’s a pretty ridiculous statement right there. Ten games better reserved for the biggest of superstars.
Nope, it jumped out at me too. 5 games at best.
When you're a terrible team, I don't think 10 games is a huge jump. We're only talking about turning the Suns into a 31-win team. That's still Sacramento Kings level bad.
If you wanted to, you could argue Allen Crabbe added 8 wins to the Nets last year.
It has also been argued that having a functional point guard versus an absolutely terrible one (or no point guard) is the key between being truly awful and just standard bad. It has been argued Hinkie realized this and started the season that got the league involved with basically no point guards.
I don't think Rozier is the kind of point guard people are talking about in this scenario, as he's not really a playmaking, facilitating PG, more of a guy who will make the team better because he'll get his and hopefully do so efficiently. I also think Rozier is really young and the Suns are really young (and really bad), so 5 wins is actually a significant achievement in my eyes.
I'm a big Rozier fan but I just don't see him adding 10 wins to Phoenix. 10 wins is a ton, and if you translate it to Win Shares, having a WS of 10+ is All-NBA territory if I'm not mistaken.
He isn't great at creating in the half court, but he's a great rebounder and really pushes the pace, and that makes things happen. He would be good for them.
I know, I’m a Rozier fan, I just don’t think he adds 10 wins. I mean what does Kyrie then add, 25?
it is different for each team obviously. If irving was added to the suns and they played him 35 minutes a game instead of melton and cannann filling those minutes, I could see it being a 20 win improvement. Melton and Can are costing the suns 5-10 wins by playing those kinds of minutes compared to even an average starting point guard. Heck Ish Smith got the 76ers a bunch of wins compared to the d-league guys they had and was one of the main reasons they dumped him the first time. ish smith.
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Rozier has value for us to win the title. If an overpay comes down I think Danny will do it. We need Rozier to win a title he makes our bench the best in the league. I am all for a title. If we get nothing for Rozier and we make The NBA Finals I can live with that IMO. I hope he makes the the difference like Iggy did for GSW get us this title too.
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BBall Index just became live today and they have some interesting analysis if people are interested. Below are their ratings for Rozier.
Perimeter shot A-
Off ball movement A-
One on one C-
Finishing D
Roll Gravity D+
Playmaking C+
Post play B+
Offensive Reb. B-
Perimeter defense C
Interior defense F
Defensive Reb. B
Interesting. I would say his finishing has improved to a C. I’m not sure he’s quite at A- for perimeter shot. I’ve hardly seen him post up so I’m not sure about a B+ either. I would say at least A- for defensive rebounding for a PG.
Last year Rozier shot 50% inside the restricted area. There were 249 players that attempted at least 100 FGA inside the restricted area and Rozier was 5th worst. In 16-17 Rozier was 3rd worst at 46.2%.
BBall Index measures all players against each other regardless of position. Rozier getting a B in defensive rebounding is very good as he is being measured against all the big men. A few of the grades like Rozier's post up grade are probably from a very limited sample and not as reliable.
The Celtics perimeter defense grades from all the big men are atrocious, Horford got an F and I think the only one above a D was Theis at a C+.