The real problem with the Celtics

[PhoSita]

6'3'' ... 6'7'' ... 6'8'' ... 6'9'' ... 6'10''


That's the listed height of every guy in our most-used lineup.

The Celtics aren't a small team.

Maybe by 2010 standards, when you needed multiple 7 footers to compete. 

Not so much in 2018.


The issue is that the Celts don't use the height that they have.


Multiple wings and guards with good size who can handle the ball and attack space ... there's no good excuse for the Celts to generate so few free throws.

Isn't Tatum listed at 6'-8"?  That is fine for a wing but a skinny 6'-8" is small for your second "big".  We are fine at all positions except PF (assuming Horford is primary C with Baynes as the back up).  Most of the PF minutes go to Tatum and Morris and neither is really a full-sized big.  I see this as a problem but not a big enough problem that we should be playing 0.500 this far into the season.

He might be listed at 6'8'', I'm not really sure.  I feel like he's taller than that.  I suspect that he's grown a bit since he was measured at 6'8'' for the draft.


You're correct that he's pretty skinny, though, and doesn't play like a big forward.

[KGBirdBias]

We're not small, we play small.

What I mean by that is Smart for example is 6'4 but he plays like he's 6'9.

Stevens likes small ball but I wouldn'y mind seeing a variation of lineups.

Big lineup
Hayward
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Baynes

We have the types of players like Hayward and Tatum that can play point forward or guard with their ball handling ability.

Small ball is the fade and becoming the norm. Why not go big and pound a small ball team?

[KG Living Legend]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

 I see what your saying but let me expand. Horford is 6'8" he's our only real big. 6 years ago he was over 10 rebounds a game now he's down to 11 points per game and 6.4 rebounds per game this is the problem.

 Horford is on his way down and we need to upgrade to a superstar big. End of Story.

Horford is not 6'8... Where do you get your information...

 I am talking no shoes height. he's 6-8 without shoes he's the same height as Tatum when you see him up close he has an 8 foot 11 inch standing reach which is subpar for an NBA center Tatum has the same standing reach.

you can't access the draftexpress website anymore but I have all the Celtics measurements memorized.

[celtics4ever33]

Smart needs to start with Brown on the bench.  It would help not only Smart and Brown but also Irving, Tatum, and Hayward a great deal.  The starting unit needs Smart's nastiness.  They need his ability to defend PG's since neither Irving nor Brown is particularly adept at that.  They need his ability to get to the line and his much better passing than Brown.  They don't need a scorer from that position as it is handled elsewhere.  Brown needs to be on the bench where he can have the ball in his hand more and where he can spend more time at his more natural SF position.  He needs to be in a spot where his role is greater and not just pigeonholed as a spot up shooter.  I've been saying it all year and it is far more true today than it was at the beginning of the year.  Smart needs to be in the starting lineup with Brown on the bench.  Period.

When was the last time Smart shut down anybody? Let alone even attempt to shut down somebody (which is the coaching staff's guidance)

Smart can't guard good guards 1 on 1.

He can have his moments where he would deny he ball. Get a stop, but the rest of the time he is getting lit up or blown by.

Smarts value is his tenacity, I agree. He can get to loose balls, he can cause a headache to a guard or a possession or two.

Smart is still the guy on defense, because the reality is you only need a few stops here and there to be effective because today you really are not allowed to stop guards.

Smart in the lineup could work , i might not work. It could be worth a try, although I think Brown is the right starter

[nickagneta]

Smart needs to start with Brown on the bench.  It would help not only Smart and Brown but also Irving, Tatum, and Hayward a great deal.  The starting unit needs Smart's nastiness.  They need his ability to defend PG's since neither Irving nor Brown is particularly adept at that.  They need his ability to get to the line and his much better passing than Brown.  They don't need a scorer from that position as it is handled elsewhere.  Brown needs to be on the bench where he can have the ball in his hand more and where he can spend more time at his more natural SF position.  He needs to be in a spot where his role is greater and not just pigeonholed as a spot up shooter.  I've been saying it all year and it is far more true today than it was at the beginning of the year.  Smart needs to be in the starting lineup with Brown on the bench.  Period.

When was the last time Smart shut down anybody? Let alone even attempt to shut down somebody (which is the coaching staff's guidance)

Smart can't guard good guards 1 on 1.

He can have his moments where he would deny he ball. Get a stop, but the rest of the time he is getting lit up or blown by.

Smarts value is his tenacity, I agree. He can get to loose balls, he can cause a headache to a guard or a possession or two.

Smart is still the guy on defense, because the reality is you only need a few stops here and there to be effective because today you really are not allowed to stop guards.

Smart in the lineup could work , i might not work. It could be worth a try, although I think Brown is the right starter

Yeah, Smart is living off his defensive reputation this year. He has a few excellent defensive plays or 50/50 plays a game but has been terrible at containing players on the perimeter all year. Players are blasting by him most of this year.

Brown is needed in the starting lineup because he is always guarding the opponents best offensive player at the wing or the PF position if Stevens is going small with Horford at center.

This idea that certain players need to start and others need to come off the bench is getting fairly old. Brown, a starter, over the last 7 games, has played bench minutes, about 25 MPG. Hayward, a bench player now, has been playing about 30 MPG over that same period, starter minutes.

It's about player groupings and substitutions and minutes played. Who starts is way over rated and taking Hayward out of the starting lineup has made zero difference. I don't see that moving Brown to the bench and Smart to the starting lineup is going to make a difference if benching Hayward didn't.

[liam]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

 I see what your saying but let me expand. Horford is 6'8" he's our only real big. 6 years ago he was over 10 rebounds a game now he's down to 11 points per game and 6.4 rebounds per game this is the problem.

 Horford is on his way down and we need to upgrade to a superstar big. End of Story.

Horford is not 6'8... Where do you get your information...

 I am talking no shoes height. he's 6-8 without shoes he's the same height as Tatum when you see him up close he has an 8 foot 11 inch standing reach which is subpar for an NBA center Tatum has the same standing reach.

you can't access the draftexpress website anymore but I have all the Celtics measurements memorized.

I'm seeing Tatum with a 6'11" wingspan and horford with a 7'1" wingspan....

[Moranis]

Smart needs to start with Brown on the bench.  It would help not only Smart and Brown but also Irving, Tatum, and Hayward a great deal.  The starting unit needs Smart's nastiness.  They need his ability to defend PG's since neither Irving nor Brown is particularly adept at that.  They need his ability to get to the line and his much better passing than Brown.  They don't need a scorer from that position as it is handled elsewhere.  Brown needs to be on the bench where he can have the ball in his hand more and where he can spend more time at his more natural SF position.  He needs to be in a spot where his role is greater and not just pigeonholed as a spot up shooter.  I've been saying it all year and it is far more true today than it was at the beginning of the year.  Smart needs to be in the starting lineup with Brown on the bench.  Period.

When was the last time Smart shut down anybody? Let alone even attempt to shut down somebody (which is the coaching staff's guidance)

Smart can't guard good guards 1 on 1.

He can have his moments where he would deny he ball. Get a stop, but the rest of the time he is getting lit up or blown by.

Smarts value is his tenacity, I agree. He can get to loose balls, he can cause a headache to a guard or a possession or two.

Smart is still the guy on defense, because the reality is you only need a few stops here and there to be effective because today you really are not allowed to stop guards.

Smart in the lineup could work , i might not work. It could be worth a try, although I think Brown is the right starter

Yeah, Smart is living off his defensive reputation this year. He has a few excellent defensive plays or 50/50 plays a game but has been terrible at containing players on the perimeter all year. Players are blasting by him most of this year.

Brown is needed in the starting lineup because he is always guarding the opponents best offensive player at the wing or the PF position if Stevens is going small with Horford at center.

This idea that certain players need to start and others need to come off the bench is getting fairly old. Brown, a starter, over the last 7 games, has played bench minutes, about 25 MPG. Hayward, a bench player now, has been playing about 30 MPG over that same period, starter minutes.

It's about player groupings and substitutions and minutes played. Who starts is way over rated and taking Hayward out of the starting lineup has made zero difference. I don't see that moving Brown to the bench and Smart to the starting lineup is going to make a difference if benching Hayward didn't.

And yet the starting lineup has been falling behind to start games.  In fact in the last 10, only against the terrible Hawks and Toronto has Boston not been trailing at the end of the 1st quarter.  You put yourself in a hole early it affects the whole game. 

[nickagneta]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

The Celtics are 6th in the league in limiting points in the paint. They are 8th in the league at limiting 2nd Chance points. They are 7th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

Height is not the problem on defense. The C's are very good at defending inside. And height on offense wouldn't make a difference. We don't go after offensive rebounds as a defensive strategy. Now a player with great post offense would help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player has to be tall. Zach Randolph, Paul Milsap, Julius Randle are prime examples.

[Chris22]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

The Celtics are 6th in the league in limiting points in the paint. They are 8th in the league at limiting 2nd Chance points. They are 7th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

Height is not the problem on defense. The C's are very good at defending inside. And height on offense wouldn't make a difference. We don't go after offensive rebounds as a defensive strategy. Now a player with great post offense would help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player has to be tall. Zach Randolph, Paul Milsap, Julius Randle are prime examples.

Sorry, we suck defending the paint against bigs when Baynes is not in the game.

[td450]

Last year, the team moved the ball better.

Kyrie and Tatum are both stopping the ball more. Kyrie played more like Isaiah last year, but this year, he's holding the ball himself and doing less off the ball cutting.  Tatum is much more likely to go into iso mode than last year.

Adding Hayward to the mix is adding another creator who does not quickly keep the ball moving. Horford is getting less touches, and the lack of movement does not generate opportunities that work for Brown.

Brown and Tatum benefit greatly from pushing the ball and getting transition opportunities. When we do get into the half court, we need to move the ball and do a better job of feeding cutters. Kyrie is the only really efficient iso player. Everyone else would benefit from more pace and movement. We have the depth to pull it off.

[nickagneta]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

The Celtics are 6th in the league in limiting points in the paint. They are 8th in the league at limiting 2nd Chance points. They are 7th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

Height is not the problem on defense. The C's are very good at defending inside. And height on offense wouldn't make a difference. We don't go after offensive rebounds as a defensive strategy. Now a player with great post offense would help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player has to be tall. Zach Randolph, Paul Milsap, Julius Randle are prime examples.

Sorry, we suck defending the paint against bigs when Baynes is not in the game.

Except the stats say you are wrong.

[Chris22]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

The Celtics are 6th in the league in limiting points in the paint. They are 8th in the league at limiting 2nd Chance points. They are 7th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

Height is not the problem on defense. The C's are very good at defending inside. And height on offense wouldn't make a difference. We don't go after offensive rebounds as a defensive strategy. Now a player with great post offense would help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player has to be tall. Zach Randolph, Paul Milsap, Julius Randle are prime examples.

Sorry, we suck defending the paint against bigs when Baynes is not in the game.

Except the stats say you are wrong.

No, they don't.

[blink]

Last year, the team moved the ball better.

Kyrie and Tatum are both stopping the ball more. Kyrie played more like Isaiah last year, but this year, he's holding the ball himself and doing less off the ball cutting.  Tatum is much more likely to go into iso mode than last year.

Adding Hayward to the mix is adding another creator who does not quickly keep the ball moving. Horford is getting less touches, and the lack of movement does not generate opportunities that work for Brown.

Brown and Tatum benefit greatly from pushing the ball and getting transition opportunities. When we do get into the half court, we need to move the ball and do a better job of feeding cutters. Kyrie is the only really efficient iso player. Everyone else would benefit from more pace and movement. We have the depth to pull it off.

Most of the things you wrote passed the eye test as far as I am concerned.  I don't think GH is getting in the way of ball movement exactly but we are def not cutting and moving without the ball as much as we did last year.  I have no idea why that is, but I am a little worried that it is being dictated by our coach. 

I am not as down on Jaylen as others seem to be, but one thing that really bothers me is when someone stands on offense.  Jaylen stands in the corner a lot, probably because he is told to.  But it hurts our offense, makes us easier to guard and removes that player from the flow of the game.  We should be CONSTANTLY moving without the ball, setting down screens, helping our team mates get open or at least be a moving target that someone on the opposing def needs to move with and worry about.

I agree about the iso with Kyrie and Tatum.  ISO has it's place, but it shouldn't be our main offensive go to set.  We need players to move without the ball, set screens, put pressure on the def even if they don't have the ball.  I think that has been pretty lacking so far this year.

[nickagneta]

We are too small.

When was the last time a team who's best player was under 6 5 won a championship. Look at how Toronto was transformed by Khawi. Anige needs to do whatever he can to get one of the handful of bigger players that could lead us to a championship.

The Celtics are 6th in the league in limiting points in the paint. They are 8th in the league at limiting 2nd Chance points. They are 7th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

Height is not the problem on defense. The C's are very good at defending inside. And height on offense wouldn't make a difference. We don't go after offensive rebounds as a defensive strategy. Now a player with great post offense would help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player has to be tall. Zach Randolph, Paul Milsap, Julius Randle are prime examples.

Sorry, we suck defending the paint against bigs when Baynes is not in the game.

Except the stats say you are wrong.

No, they don't.

Oh....then show my theses stats. Mine above are straight from nba.com

[greenhead85]

Setting the offensive tone late somehow dampens the defensive effort.

We look for Brown, Tatum and Hayward to ignite the offense early in the game.