Author Topic: Start Green, Pierce sixth man  (Read 16335 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2013, 07:17:34 PM »

Offline CelticG1

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4201
  • Tommy Points: 288
Why doesn't Lee start and rondo come off the bench?

We can put the ball in Pierce and KG's hands and Lee can take open shots when he gets them.

Rondo then comes in and helps the second unit by creating easier opportunities for them.

This type of thinking is what makes people shake their head when others want to start Green instead of Pierce.

In theory some of the things sound nice but doubtful that they play out how you'd like and basically just rolling the dice for the heck of it. Doc, Danny and every player isn't just going to roll the five out of no where. It takes deep thought and consideration before youbjust start shooting off fireworks

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2013, 07:19:49 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58761
  • Tommy Points: -25628
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.

If the concern is energy level, how is replacing Paul Pierce -- who has carried this team numerous times, played through injuries, sparked huge comebacks -- with the passive Jeff Green going to do anything positive?

This isn't replacing Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, or Bass with Sully.  It's replacing a better and more energetic player with a lesser talent (in terms of scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding), and a guy who brings less energy.

Note that Doc didn't speak about making changes in the starting lineup.  Rather, he talked about shipping folks out of town.  Clearly, replacing the Captain isn't something Doc is thinking about.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2013, 07:21:56 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58761
  • Tommy Points: -25628
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2013, 07:24:18 PM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
Here are the Reasons it could be a good idea:
1. Green would benefit from playing with the starters
2. It could save Pierce's legs
Why it is a bad idea:
1. Pierce is our best scorer on a team that sometimes has trouble scoring.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 07:35:12 PM by Evantime34 »
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2013, 07:24:41 PM »

Offline CelticsFan9

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1571
  • Tommy Points: 116
  • Everyone's excited for the new era.
Our starting lineup struggles to score.  Why take out our best scorer and put in a guy who the coach runs no plays for, and is ineffective if the ball isn't in his hands?  That makes no sense to me.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2013, 08:12:13 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4849
  • Tommy Points: 386
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.

If the concern is energy level, how is replacing Paul Pierce -- who has carried this team numerous times, played through injuries, sparked huge comebacks -- with the passive Jeff Green going to do anything positive?

This isn't replacing Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, or Bass with Sully.  It's replacing a better and more energetic player with a lesser talent (in terms of scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding), and a guy who brings less energy.

Note that Doc didn't speak about making changes in the starting lineup.  Rather, he talked about shipping folks out of town.  Clearly, replacing the Captain isn't something Doc is thinking about.

More athletic due to being younger might be a better way of putting it than energy level.

I guess you're saying you don't want Pierce to switch to the bench until his backup shows clearly that he's a better player.  I can live with that I guess, though when a player's age is in question I think teams and players should be flexible.  I also think we should start games against Miami with our best defensive unit (so let's see how Jeff and Paul move forward on that end as the season progresses).

I actually think the Celts would have a better shot against Miami with Rondo and Jeff Green (or a Jeff Green replacement who is a good defender who can finish) developing chemistry for some months before that series comes to pass, and Pierce doing all kinds of damage off the bench while still closing games.

I don't think we can start a 35 and 36 year old against Wade and Lebron.  But we might be able to finish games like that if we manage their minutes wisely, as is already happening with Garnett.
 
I guess I hold the opinion I do because a pet peeve of mine is watching gassed players heroically try to keep their level of play up when it's clear they're cooked.  This has happened to us in some of our playoffs with Paul and Ray.  A gassed player with no legs left is not much better than a D-Leaguer and at times worse.  But that's more of a coaching issue than a who's the better player issue.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2013, 08:15:24 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47506
  • Tommy Points: 2404


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2013, 08:25:37 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58761
  • Tommy Points: -25628
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2013, 08:34:12 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47506
  • Tommy Points: 2404


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2013, 08:37:34 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58761
  • Tommy Points: -25628
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

I agree in general.  Pierce's lessening consistency is a large part of the reason we're not top-tier contenders anymore.

However, when people talk about replacing Pierce with Green, they need to realize that all the problems they have with Pierce's game are amplified when talking about Green.  Green is a less consistent scorer, a worse shooter, a much worse passer, and inferior rebounder, etc.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2013, 08:47:37 PM »

Offline clover

  • Front Page Moderator
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6130
  • Tommy Points: 315


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

A fair point: the guy playing fewer minutes is expected to be less consistent, because each game comprises a smaller sample of his shooting.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2013, 08:53:01 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3816
  • Tommy Points: 127
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2013, 08:56:55 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3816
  • Tommy Points: 127


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

I agree in general.  Pierce's lessening consistency is a large part of the reason we're not top-tier contenders anymore.

However, when people talk about replacing Pierce with Green, they need to realize that all the problems they have with Pierce's game are amplified when talking about Green.  Green is a less consistent scorer, a worse shooter, a much worse passer, and inferior rebounder, etc.
All true, and I definitely am not trying to insinuate that Green has been having a great year. I think the difference though is the objective. I feel pretty strongly that without a major shakeup we are a first round exit from the playoffs if we even get into them. I think it is time to stop pretending that Pierce can lead us to the finals and start evaluating what we have for the future. I think Green would play better in the starting lineup than coming off the bench, and we need to see if this is as good as he gets, or if he can be Pierce's replacement. I don't think there is a trade that someone would be willing to make that wouldn't give away our core completely that would make us contenders, so I'm thinking look to the future.

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2013, 08:57:42 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58761
  • Tommy Points: -25628
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2013, 09:03:02 PM »

Online blink

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18120
  • Tommy Points: 1479
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

I am pretty sure using ANY all-star balloting to justify all-star level 'play' is pretty silly.  I am a huge KG fan and I accept that he really doesn't deserve to be starting in the all-star game based on his play in the 1st 1/2 of the year.

Honestly being 6th in the all-star voting doesn't mean he is good or bad.  It is just irrelevant to our discussion of whether or not it is time to consider PP coming off the bench.

I am all for giving PP a day or two off to see if getting his legs a bit of rest can improve his horrible shooting %.  His legs seem pretty shot.  Give him a couple DNP's and let him rest and see if JG can help.  If Green can't at least fill in well for PP in that scenario, then he needs to go into the 'very much willing to be traded' catagory.  JG has been hugely inconsistent, but then so has PP.  Give JG a shot at least before you throw him off the bus.