Author Topic: What was Rivers thinking.  (Read 6657 times)

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Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2010, 08:23:51 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Only the most relentlessly optimistic among us expected to sweep Miami coming in.

It is, however, daunting to have seen the total lack of focus and effort this team opened the game with today - very similar to some of the dead efforts this club rolled out post-December.

Meanwhile, Cleveland looks very good today.

Good points. We lost this one in the first quarter, not the fourth.

Honestly, I thought the D on Wade in the fourth was actually pretty good. I mean - we can live with him shooting threes. Most games he won't hit them at that crazy kinda rate. And we'll win. For Miami, this was a perfect storm in the fourth. Bad free throw shooting for the Celtics, Wade shooting the lights out, Rondo missing a layup. It won't happen again.

But Cleveland is going to be a serious handful.
We did not lose this in the first. We lost when Wade started burying pull up 3's of the dribble, as you mention.

I don't think effort was a problem in the beginning. Q Rich shooting the lights out was the problem,combined with the bigger problem of bad passes. 9 TOs in the first quarter is not a sign of a lack of effort. It is poor decision making and good defense by the opponent. Sometimes bad passes are actually a sign of trying too hard.

The only person I would say showed a lack of effort was J ONeal. Our problems were TOs turning into transition plays for the Heat.

If it was a lack of focus, what were they failing to focus on? What indicates a lack of effort? These seem to me to be sports cliches that people just automatically attribute to teams that are performing poorly.

I completely agree with the opinion above about Wade shooting 3's. That is not his game. He isn't good enough from 3 to do that for 4 games straight. He looked rather mediocre from 3 in other games.

I don't know. I see your point on the fourth quarter but we spotted them 13 points in the first and gave them life for the whole game as a result. Whether that's effort, focus, or execution... I'd have to rewatch the tape to make that call. But regardless, if that first quarter doesn't happen, I think Miami slinks off into the night long before Wade's heroics.


Why say that we "gave" them anything? They took it. Game 2 was the only blowout in the series. It has been challenging otherwise.

In close games, there will usually be stretches where each team outscores the other. It can be in the first quarter, or in another quarter. Teams go on runs. I don't get too worked up about leads or deficits since every distribution has outliers. If you play 16 quarters against any team, some of those quarters will have better results for the other team, regardless of effort or ability.

It doesn't surprise me when a losing team has good start in the next game because they are motivated to make changes. It seemed like the Celtics found they couldn't make passes as easily in the 1st quarter as they did in previous games. Passes into the post were being slapped away a lot. That is not so much an issue of effort by the team on offense as it is about effort on defense as well as execution/decision-making and perhaps patience on offense.

The way I look at games like that is that teams that get a lot of assists pass a lot, so they will have some high turnover games where they don't thread the needle as effectively. I do get tired though of some of the ridiculously bad passes that Ray makes.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2010, 08:24:43 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Also - 9 turnovers in the first 9 minutes of the first quarter.

Not certain about this, but we counted six of them unforced in the bar.

Again, another sign of a team that simply was not ready to play.

I can guarantee you that with the possible exception of Wallace, who should have "Apathy" above 30 on the back of his jersey, there's no one in the Celtics locker room saying, "Oh, well. They really shot the ball great today." The better team has been clearly defined in this series, and they frittered the game away today.

A second-rate effort today, way too similar to some of the apathetic losses we've endured in the regular season.
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Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2010, 08:27:53 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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Also - 9 turnovers in the first 9 minutes of the first quarter.

Not certain about this, but we counted six of them unforced in the bar.

Again, another sign of a team that simply was not ready to play.

I can guarantee you that with the possible exception of Wallace, who should have "Apathy" above 30 on the back of his jersey, there's no one in the Celtics locker room saying, "Oh, well. They really shot the ball great today."

If you listen to PP's comments post-game you can tell the team came into the first quarter expecting a coronation today. They didn't expect that much fight out of the heat. I'm replaying the first quarter now - some "hero" ball, sloppy passing, defensive indifference as Miami comes at them... all the hits are there.

I expect a much stronger effort Tuesday out of the box.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2010, 08:28:54 PM »

Offline FallGuy

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Also - 9 turnovers in the first 9 minutes of the first quarter.

Not certain about this, but we counted six of them unforced in the bar.

Again, another sign of a team that simply was not ready to play.

I can guarantee you that with the possible exception of Wallace, who should have "Apathy" above 30 on the back of his jersey, there's no one in the Celtics locker room saying, "Oh, well. They really shot the ball great today." The better team has been clearly defined in this series, and they frittered the game away today.

A second-rate effort today, way too similar to some of the apathetic losses we've endured in the regular season.

Also completely agree with you about Sheed. He's the same useless dog he was all year.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Pierce gets it. He always has.

Players and coaches don't look for reasons to rationalize a sub-par effort away. They correct it.

And they leave the rationalizations to the fans.

As for Wallace, the guy could not play for me. Period. When the season's finally over, one consolation will be that I will not have to watch him desecrate a Celtics jersey any longer. Seven feet tall, and he stands there repeatedly and allows the opposition a free run at the rim.

Absolutely unacceptable. Ainge cannot dispose of him quickly enough to suit me. Whatever the price is, buy this guy out and send him on his way. I was absolutely and totally wrong about acquiring him in the off-season.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 08:36:47 PM by CoachBo »
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Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2010, 08:36:24 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Only the most relentlessly optimistic among us expected to sweep Miami coming in.

It is, however, daunting to have seen the total lack of focus and effort this team opened the game with today - very similar to some of the dead efforts this club rolled out post-December.

Meanwhile, Cleveland looks very good today.

Good points. We lost this one in the first quarter, not the fourth.

Honestly, I thought the D on Wade in the fourth was actually pretty good. I mean - we can live with him shooting threes. Most games he won't hit them at that crazy kinda rate. And we'll win. For Miami, this was a perfect storm in the fourth. Bad free throw shooting for the Celtics, Wade shooting the lights out, Rondo missing a layup. It won't happen again.

But Cleveland is going to be a serious handful.
We did not lose this in the first. We lost when Wade started burying pull up 3's of the dribble, as you mention.

I don't think effort was a problem in the beginning. Q Rich shooting the lights out was the problem,combined with the bigger problem of bad passes. 9 TOs in the first quarter is not a sign of a lack of effort. It is poor decision making and good defense by the opponent. Sometimes bad passes are actually a sign of trying too hard.

The only person I would say showed a lack of effort was J ONeal. Our problems were TOs turning into transition plays for the Heat.

If it was a lack of focus, what were they failing to focus on? What indicates a lack of effort? These seem to me to be sports cliches that people just automatically attribute to teams that are performing poorly.

I completely agree with the opinion above about Wade shooting 3's. That is not his game. He isn't good enough from 3 to do that for 4 games straight. He looked rather mediocre from 3 in other games.

Could not disagree with you more strongly. The ball movement wasn't there. The defensive rotations weren't there. And once Doc went to the bench in the first, the effort went from bad to nonexistent, especially with Wallace.

We did absolutely nothing well in the first period on either end of the floor, which shows a decided lack of focus. And we didn't close out on anyone in the first period - terrible, terrible defense, very reminiscent of the regular season. That returned in a couple of shorter sequences in the second half that were equally destructive.

And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense. Good defensive teams - championship teams - get over screens, they close out and they suffocate the other team, as the 2008 Celtics did repeatedly.

Championship defensive teams dictate the pace of the game and the quality of the shot to the offense with effort and intelligence - which we've done in this series. We didn't do enough of it today to win a game - against basically anyone.

We spent much of the game running uphill from the total lack of focus and effort with which the game was started - and we're going to lose each and every playoff game from this point that we approach similarly.
The ball movement didn't happen because our passes were being picked off. We were passing, but they were slapping the passes away.

"And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense."

You are both correct and wrong. If an offense is willing to take low percentage shots, they can typically get them, but they will make them at a low percentage. Wade was satisfied with taking low percentage shots today (he shot 30% on the year from 3). They just happened to fall this game. He will not be able to do that regularly against our defense, so our defense will win out. In fact, this is not the first game this series where he tried launching 3's. Wade was 3-11 from 3 in game 3. This is just the first game where his 3 point shooting benefited his team.

Players like Jamal Crawford are great examples. They can get the shots they want, no matter what you do, because their standards for what a good shot is are so low. Over many games, this doesn't usually work if those players are the focal point of the offense because of how often they are doing low percentage plays at key moments.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2010, 08:37:42 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Also - 9 turnovers in the first 9 minutes of the first quarter.

Not certain about this, but we counted six of them unforced in the bar.

Again, another sign of a team that simply was not ready to play.

I can guarantee you that with the possible exception of Wallace, who should have "Apathy" above 30 on the back of his jersey, there's no one in the Celtics locker room saying, "Oh, well. They really shot the ball great today."

If you listen to PP's comments post-game you can tell the team came into the first quarter expecting a coronation today. They didn't expect that much fight out of the heat. I'm replaying the first quarter now - some "hero" ball, sloppy passing, defensive indifference as Miami comes at them... all the hits are there.

I expect a much stronger effort Tuesday out of the box.
Hopefully this means they will expect their passes to be challenged and they will make them more carefully.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2010, 08:38:01 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Only the most relentlessly optimistic among us expected to sweep Miami coming in.

It is, however, daunting to have seen the total lack of focus and effort this team opened the game with today - very similar to some of the dead efforts this club rolled out post-December.

Meanwhile, Cleveland looks very good today.

Good points. We lost this one in the first quarter, not the fourth.

Honestly, I thought the D on Wade in the fourth was actually pretty good. I mean - we can live with him shooting threes. Most games he won't hit them at that crazy kinda rate. And we'll win. For Miami, this was a perfect storm in the fourth. Bad free throw shooting for the Celtics, Wade shooting the lights out, Rondo missing a layup. It won't happen again.

But Cleveland is going to be a serious handful.
We did not lose this in the first. We lost when Wade started burying pull up 3's of the dribble, as you mention.

I don't think effort was a problem in the beginning. Q Rich shooting the lights out was the problem,combined with the bigger problem of bad passes. 9 TOs in the first quarter is not a sign of a lack of effort. It is poor decision making and good defense by the opponent. Sometimes bad passes are actually a sign of trying too hard.

The only person I would say showed a lack of effort was J ONeal. Our problems were TOs turning into transition plays for the Heat.

If it was a lack of focus, what were they failing to focus on? What indicates a lack of effort? These seem to me to be sports cliches that people just automatically attribute to teams that are performing poorly.

I completely agree with the opinion above about Wade shooting 3's. That is not his game. He isn't good enough from 3 to do that for 4 games straight. He looked rather mediocre from 3 in other games.

Could not disagree with you more strongly. The ball movement wasn't there. The defensive rotations weren't there. And once Doc went to the bench in the first, the effort went from bad to nonexistent, especially with Wallace.

We did absolutely nothing well in the first period on either end of the floor, which shows a decided lack of focus. And we didn't close out on anyone in the first period - terrible, terrible defense, very reminiscent of the regular season. That returned in a couple of shorter sequences in the second half that were equally destructive.

And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense. Good defensive teams - championship teams - get over screens, they close out and they suffocate the other team, as the 2008 Celtics did repeatedly.

Championship defensive teams dictate the pace of the game and the quality of the shot to the offense with effort and intelligence - which we've done in this series. We didn't do enough of it today to win a game - against basically anyone.

We spent much of the game running uphill from the total lack of focus and effort with which the game was started - and we're going to lose each and every playoff game from this point that we approach similarly.
The ball movement didn't happen because our passes were being picked off. We were passing, but they were slapping the passes away.

"And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense."

You are both correct and wrong. If an offense is willing to take low percentage shots, they can typically get them, but they will make them at a low percentage. Wade was satisfied with taking low percentage shots today (he shot 30% on the year from 3). They just happened to fall this game. He will not be able to do that regularly against our defense, so our defense will win out. In fact, this is not the first game this series where he tried launching 3's. Wade was 3-11 from 3 in game 3. This is just the first game where his 3 point shooting benefited his team.

Players like Jamal Crawford are great examples. They can get the shots they want, no matter what you do, because their standards for what a good shot is are so low. Over many games, this doesn't usually work if those players are the focal point of the offense because of how often they are doing low percentage plays at key moments.

You won't find a coach at any level of this great game to agree with you. We are going to have to agree to disagree, because you are rationalizing bad basketball away.

One place in which you contradict yourself that cannot escape being pointed out: You assert that we "didn't expect" our passes to be challenged?

Uh, in the interest of blog rules, I will just add that again, I completely and totally disagree with this errant interpretation of lazy, unmotivated basketball. Passes behind a player and fumbled by a player - unchallenged - are what they are: Players who simply aren't ready to play. Anything less is an excuse, not an explanation for failing - in the first quarter, primarily - to value the basketball, which is something coaches begin demanding in junior high school.

I'm sitting here going through the DVR, and there just isn't the slightest sign of Miami suddenly morphing into an impenetrable defensive juggernaut, as comforting as that idea might be. The ONLY thing they're doing differently is playing with more energy than the Celtics, which isn't saying much since we opened this game and played a couple of significant second half stretches without any appreciable energy - again all too reminiscent of the regular season.

So, I'm going to leave it at this: I totally and completely disagree with your interpretation of this game.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 08:45:53 PM by CoachBo »
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Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2010, 08:41:53 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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As for Wallace, the guy could not play for me. Period. When the season's finally over, one consolation will be that I will not have to watch him desecrate a Celtics jersey any longer. Seven feet tall, and he stands there repeatedly and allows the opposition a free run at the rim.

Absolutely unacceptable. Ainge cannot dispose of him quickly enough to suit me. Whatever the price is, buy this guy out and send him on his way. I was absolutely and totally wrong about acquiring him in the off-season.
Perhaps we should start up a collection to help the Celtics pay for buying him out? I'll give all I can.
Peace through Tyranny

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2010, 08:44:23 PM »

Offline LB3533

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"When the Celtics play sloppy and fail to execute either due to laziness or stupidity then they give points away."

Evidence: Quarter 1




"When the Celtics play their game, execute they can't be beaten by the Heat."

Evidence: Quarters 2 & 3.



"Only way for the Heat to win a game against the Celtics in 2009-2010 is for the Heat superstar to go nutso hot from 3 point land and for the Celtics to miss layups, free throws and not boxing out on an airball which resulted in a fluke put back by Micheal Beasley."

Evidence: Quarter 4



Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2010, 08:47:44 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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As for Wallace, the guy could not play for me. Period. When the season's finally over, one consolation will be that I will not have to watch him desecrate a Celtics jersey any longer. Seven feet tall, and he stands there repeatedly and allows the opposition a free run at the rim.

Absolutely unacceptable. Ainge cannot dispose of him quickly enough to suit me. Whatever the price is, buy this guy out and send him on his way. I was absolutely and totally wrong about acquiring him in the off-season.
Perhaps we should start up a collection to help the Celtics pay for buying him out? I'll give all I can.

Jeff knows Wyc. Tell him to have Wyc open a Paypal account. I'll contribute what I think a buyout of Wallace should be worth - $5.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2010, 08:54:42 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Only the most relentlessly optimistic among us expected to sweep Miami coming in.

It is, however, daunting to have seen the total lack of focus and effort this team opened the game with today - very similar to some of the dead efforts this club rolled out post-December.

Meanwhile, Cleveland looks very good today.

Good points. We lost this one in the first quarter, not the fourth.

Honestly, I thought the D on Wade in the fourth was actually pretty good. I mean - we can live with him shooting threes. Most games he won't hit them at that crazy kinda rate. And we'll win. For Miami, this was a perfect storm in the fourth. Bad free throw shooting for the Celtics, Wade shooting the lights out, Rondo missing a layup. It won't happen again.

But Cleveland is going to be a serious handful.
We did not lose this in the first. We lost when Wade started burying pull up 3's of the dribble, as you mention.

I don't think effort was a problem in the beginning. Q Rich shooting the lights out was the problem,combined with the bigger problem of bad passes. 9 TOs in the first quarter is not a sign of a lack of effort. It is poor decision making and good defense by the opponent. Sometimes bad passes are actually a sign of trying too hard.

The only person I would say showed a lack of effort was J ONeal. Our problems were TOs turning into transition plays for the Heat.

If it was a lack of focus, what were they failing to focus on? What indicates a lack of effort? These seem to me to be sports cliches that people just automatically attribute to teams that are performing poorly.

I completely agree with the opinion above about Wade shooting 3's. That is not his game. He isn't good enough from 3 to do that for 4 games straight. He looked rather mediocre from 3 in other games.

Could not disagree with you more strongly. The ball movement wasn't there. The defensive rotations weren't there. And once Doc went to the bench in the first, the effort went from bad to nonexistent, especially with Wallace.

We did absolutely nothing well in the first period on either end of the floor, which shows a decided lack of focus. And we didn't close out on anyone in the first period - terrible, terrible defense, very reminiscent of the regular season. That returned in a couple of shorter sequences in the second half that were equally destructive.

And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense. Good defensive teams - championship teams - get over screens, they close out and they suffocate the other team, as the 2008 Celtics did repeatedly.

Championship defensive teams dictate the pace of the game and the quality of the shot to the offense with effort and intelligence - which we've done in this series. We didn't do enough of it today to win a game - against basically anyone.

We spent much of the game running uphill from the total lack of focus and effort with which the game was started - and we're going to lose each and every playoff game from this point that we approach similarly.
The ball movement didn't happen because our passes were being picked off. We were passing, but they were slapping the passes away.

"And no, it is not inevitable in the association that any offense can get any shot it wants against any defense."

You are both correct and wrong. If an offense is willing to take low percentage shots, they can typically get them, but they will make them at a low percentage. Wade was satisfied with taking low percentage shots today (he shot 30% on the year from 3). They just happened to fall this game. He will not be able to do that regularly against our defense, so our defense will win out. In fact, this is not the first game this series where he tried launching 3's. Wade was 3-11 from 3 in game 3. This is just the first game where his 3 point shooting benefited his team.

Players like Jamal Crawford are great examples. They can get the shots they want, no matter what you do, because their standards for what a good shot is are so low. Over many games, this doesn't usually work if those players are the focal point of the offense because of how often they are doing low percentage plays at key moments.

You won't find a coach at any level of this great game to agree with you. We are going to have to agree to disagree, because you are rationalizing bad basketball away.
There are coaches that will agree with me at all levels. You are rationalizing away the reality that sometimes, no matter how correct your approach is, it doesn't work out.

Proof? So many times we hear coaches after losses say that they got the other team to take the shots they wanted them to take. As Doc says, it's about making shots. If they take the ill-advised shots and hit them, more power to them. It won't happen for 4 games (the number needed to win the series).

The most important thing to do when Wade decides to launch 3s like that? Rebound. Wade shot 30% from 3 in March, 29% in Feb, 23% in Jan. Overall for 2010, that is pretty bad if we exclude this series.

This series, he is shooting 35% from 3. This is great for him, but it isn't so great that we commit our defensive philosophy to denying him the 3 when he is so much more dangerous penetrating. If we lock down other options and his best shot is launching 3's, I am happy with that. He is more dangerous if we try to deny him the 3 and he gets into the lane.

If Wade wants to play like JR Smith or Ben Gordon, I'll take it.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2010, 08:58:11 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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"When the Celtics play sloppy and fail to execute either due to laziness or stupidity then they give points away."

Evidence: Quarter 1




"When the Celtics play their game, execute they can't be beaten by the Heat."

Evidence: Quarters 2 & 3.



"Only way for the Heat to win a game against the Celtics in 2009-2010 is for the Heat superstar to go nutso hot from 3 point land and for the Celtics to miss layups, free throws and not boxing out on an airball which resulted in a fluke put back by Micheal Beasley."

Evidence: Quarter 4


Haha.

Boxing out can actually make it harder to get those airballs. You are pushing so hard against the opposing player, it is hard to react. That Rondo miss off backboard was frustrating, but the 0-4 from the  FT line by Ray and KG was horrific.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2010, 09:00:54 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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"When the Celtics play sloppy and fail to execute either due to laziness or stupidity then they give points away."

Evidence: Quarter 1




"When the Celtics play their game, execute they can't be beaten by the Heat."

Evidence: Quarters 2 & 3.



"Only way for the Heat to win a game against the Celtics in 2009-2010 is for the Heat superstar to go nutso hot from 3 point land and for the Celtics to miss layups, free throws and not boxing out on an airball which resulted in a fluke put back by Micheal Beasley."

Evidence: Quarter 4


Haha.

Boxing out can actually make it harder to get those airballs. You are pushing so hard against the opposing player, it is hard to react. That Rondo miss off backboard was frustrating, but the 0-4 from the  FT line by Ray and KG was horrific.
Yeah if we hit free throws and that bunny its a close game. That's with Wade going bananas and the awful first quarter.

Game 5 won't be a gimmie, but we'll win it.

Re: What was Rivers thinking.
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2010, 09:01:48 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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There are two schools of thought when playing vs. stars. One, is don't let him beat you. The other, is don't let anyone else beat you. Doc chose the latter in terms of defensive strategy and it backfired. It happens. Regardless, we're up 3-1 and will in all likelihood close it out in 48 hrs. Can't help, but feel good about that.