He owns a 5 million dollar mansion in Dallas, it's pretty obvious where he is going....Yes. Fact. I agree... It's a fair and valid point. Most are convinced he's going to Dallas. Seems to me the only way we could actually land Deron is if we first traded for Dwight. It's an interesting idea, though.
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
Woah.Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
I did ..
Answer still the same dude.
Rondo ;D
Whether you want to hear it or not Rondo's better and would be a much better contract value for the same position.I think what i'm getting from you guys is that Rondo is more valuable than Rondo and Deron WIlliams. Fascinating.
Career net offensive-defensive rating BB-reference.com
Rondo 107-101=+6
DWill 113-110=+3
Rondo's superior defense (+9) more than offset's DWills superior offense. Shocker. DWill's a turnstile with an defensive rating equal to Nash's.
I wouldn't consider it unless I already had a deal lined up that would bring back an All-Star caliber player in exchange for a Rondo-centric package. Even then, I probably wouldn't do it if it meant KG wouldn't be coming back.Fair opinion. If Rondo is as good as everyone seems to think... landing an all-star caliber player shouldn't be all that hard. Seems to me Atlanta would hypothetically jump if we offered Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (who wants out and they will likely lose anyway). In fact, Rondo should theoretically have even more value than that, right?
Whether you want to hear it or not Rondo's better and would be a much better contract value for the same position.I think what i'm getting from you guys is that Rondo is more valuable than Rondo and Deron WIlliams. Fascinating.
Career net offensive-defensive rating BB-reference.com
Rondo 107-101=+6
DWill 113-110=+3
Rondo's superior defense (+9) more than offset's DWills superior offense. Shocker. DWill's a turnstile with an defensive rating equal to Nash's.
The guy is so awesome that he's awesomer than himself + a top 3 point guard. Incredible.
Kevin Garnett > Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol
Paul Pierce > Paul Pierce and LeBron James.
Love it. I'm putting it on my book.
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
That's a fair point. But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams? Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents. You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck. You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck. ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys. Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
Haha. Real choice:
Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.
I wouldn't consider it unless I already had a deal lined up that would bring back an All-Star caliber player in exchange for a Rondo-centric package. Even then, I probably wouldn't do it if it meant KG wouldn't be coming back.Fair opinion. If Rondo is as good as everyone seems to think... landing an all-star caliber player shouldn't be all that hard. Seems to me Atlanta would hypothetically jump if we offered Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (who wants out and they will likely lose anyway). In fact, Rondo should theoretically have even more value than that, right?
I mean from what I'm hearing from some Celtic fans... Rondo is so untouchable that we shouldn't even trade him for Rondo + a top 3 point guard.
I just want to float this idea for you. Again... hypothetical not be taken seriously. What if I were to tell you that we had a deal lined up of Rondo to the Kings for Demarcus Cousins. Cousins makes 4 mil next year and fits under the "allstar caliber" definition. After signing Deron, you'd have 15.6 mil left in cap space (since Rondo was set to make 11 mil and you just shed an additional 7 mil in space)... which would be enough to probably bring back both Ray and KG. PG - Deron, SG - Ray, SF - Pierce, PF - KG, C - Cousins ... Hope you get my gist and don't reply by saying "Cousins is a headcase"... that's not the point. Btw, that team would also have both 1st rounders and Avery Bradley.
Forget Dwill. There is much better option in the next free agency. If we sign Dwill to a max contract, that will reduce our chance to sign another max player (probably better than Dwill). I'll just stick with Rondo not because he is a better player but he is a better option. His contract is cap-friendly so we can still sign max-contract players. Resign KG, Green or anyone in the current roster then blow it up next season or two.Yeah supposedly some people seem to think there are "much better" options next year. Signing Deron wouldn't change our chances there... and I seriously doubt you'll find a better unrestricted free agent than Deron Williams anyways.
why? we have a point guardBecause you don't win championships by refusing to take risks and standing pat with mediocrity.
I didnt vote because I didnt like any of the options...Why we we give DWill max money when we already an all star caliber point guard with one more ring than dwill has.Glen Davis has one more ring than LeBron James has, but I'd still rather have LeBron James.
Try and Sign Kaman/ Demarcus Cousins and keep Rondo. Bring KG back for a year as a starter then sign Josh Smith when he is a free agent. We all saw what Rondo was capable of when he had good bigs that camped under the rim. 20+ assists a game no worries. Demarcus has matured since the all star break and its shown in his play, the kid will be an all star soon enough..... Cousins isn't a free agent
Hypothetical Deron example 1: Sign Deron to a max deal. Trade Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (13 mil next season)... that leaves only aprox 6.6 mil left over.I like this Josh Smith idea.
I think Kaman could be available for that $5 million MLE.Try and Sign Kaman/ Demarcus Cousins and keep Rondo. Bring KG back for a year as a starter then sign Josh Smith when he is a free agent. We all saw what Rondo was capable of when he had good bigs that camped under the rim. 20+ assists a game no worries. Demarcus has matured since the all star break and its shown in his play, the kid will be an all star soon enough..... Cousins isn't a free agent
You might be able to keep Rondo (and the rest of the team) and add a big man for the MLE. I think that prices us out of Kaman.
That's a fair point. But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams? Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents. You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck. You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck. ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys. Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
Haha. Real choice:
Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.
Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.Hi welcome to Celticsblog, my friendly n00b. I'm LarBrd33. I play devil's advocate around here. Nice to meet you.
Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
That's a fair point too. I almost included that footnote to hypothetical #1 in my original post, but I have a tendency to be long-winded as-is and I'm fairly certain half this board is already tuning me out. Here's what it WOULD have said.That's a fair point. But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams? Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents. You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck. You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck. ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys. Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have RondoI'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.
Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great. You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box. Option A or Option B?
Haha. Real choice:
Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market
Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.
Maybe they don't sign a free agent, maybe they trade for a player that's already under contract.
I would much, much rather have RondoI'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments. My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought. Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul. I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism. Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level. It's not close. So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.
I didnt vote because I didnt like any of the options...Why we we give DWill max money when we already an all star caliber point guard with one more ring than dwill has.Glen Davis has one more ring than LeBron James has, but I'd still rather have LeBron James.
And again this isn't about choosing between Deron and Rondo. It's about whether or not you'd want to add Deron. By all means... if you'd like to add Deron and keep Rondo, go for it. But seems to me if you add a top 3 pg (deron) to go with your top 6 pg (rondo)... one of them needs to be traded.
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.He's the only franchise player available as an unrestricted free agent. That's all
so, no i wouldn't do that deal.
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments. My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought. Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul. I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism. Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level. It's not close. So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.
Even so... this isn't about trading Rondo for Deron. If the best player available was Carmelo Anthony, I'd say we should sign Melo and trade Pierce to the highest bidder... even if you believe (wrongly or correctly) that Pierce is better than Melo.I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments. My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought. Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul. I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism. Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level. It's not close. So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.
There exist statistics out there which could lead someone to believe that Rondo is as good as Deron Williams (WS/48) or perhaps better (adjusted +/-). (But Chris Paul is better than either.) Since Rondo is a couple of years younger and makes less money, that should make him more desirable even if he is slightly worse than Williams.
I will admit those stats have flaws, but I think they are better than PER.
I would much, much rather have RondoI'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments. My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought. Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul. I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism. Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level. It's not close. So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.
I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams. You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons. Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds. He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter. He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build. As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.
That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt. I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat). From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams. You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons. Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds. He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter. He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build. As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.
That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
If we were to sign Deron, at that point you need to move Rondo to somewhere better for him and the team.
Anyways its not happening, he's going to go to Dallas.
I would much, much rather have RondoI'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments. My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought. Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul. I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism. Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level. It's not close. So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.
The basis of this thread seems to be that your opinions are actually facts, and if anyone disagrees with you it's either because they're total homers or because they no less about basketball than you do. Those arguments must sound pretty compelling in your mind but they don't translate that well.
Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.
Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt. I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat). From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).I think Deron has a lot more to offer at his primary position than did Chauncey at this point.
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.
Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.
so, no i wouldn't do that deal.
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.
so, no i wouldn't do that deal.
I really don't think you have an appreciation for how bad Deron's teammates are. And the fact that he's putting up the numbers that he is with the awful teammates is impressive enough.
On the other hand, has anyone noticed that Rondo has actually regressed this year? He's shooting his lowest FG% since his rookie year (.454%). His steals are slightly below his career average and below the 2.3 of last two years. His assists are on par with his career high, which is great. He's had two years with higher PERs, and his PER is only slightly higher than last year.
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.
Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
We don't have the best point guard in the game. Nor do we have the second best point guard in the game - that's Deron Williams.
QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
QuoteMaybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.
In both real and fantasy ball, Deron is better.
How can you seriously use on/off stats to compare Deron/Rondo when both guys are on the court most of the game? It's totally misleading.
We already have a star point guard. Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.
There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record. A max player should be able to do that.
We already have a star point guard. Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.
There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record. A max player should be able to do that.
Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.
How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.
Most players fg% varies from year to year, they don't stay the same or go up every year. That's not regression, that's typical noise. His steals may be down but his defense is as good or better than it was last year. PER is generally a stat that measures individual production, not necessarily impact, and it favors scorers.
The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.QuoteHow can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.
A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.
Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)
So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.
We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.
We already have a star point guard. Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.
There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record. A max player should be able to do that.
Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.
QuoteHow can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.
A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.
Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)
So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.
We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.
It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.
Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.
The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.
Deron doesn't cause that.
The "price" of landing a max talent: First of all, I believe a "max contract" (not involving a sign-and-trade) would give him a starting salary of 17.4 mil (30% of a 58 mil cap for a 7-9 year vet). In order to offer Deron that max deal, you'd first need to renounce the rights to Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, etc (Pietrus, Dooling, Wilcox, JO... ). Once you RENOUNCE those rights, you are left with roughly 28 mil in cap space. You'll need to use some of that money to sign our two 1st rounders... so lets call it 26 mil to be safe. Presuming Deron takes the max offer (17.4 mil), you now only have 8.6 million left in cap space. That may, in fact, price you out of bringing back Kevin Garnett (who most assume will get 10-12 mil next year), but you should have enough to bring back ONE of the following (Ray Allen, Jeff Green or Brandon Bass). Additionally, presumably if you sign Deron Williams, the next move is to offer up Rondo on the open market to the highest bidder. This is a tough one for a lot of Celtic fans to stomach, but it doesn't make much sense to have two dominant point guards. I'm of the belief that the Celtics owners/management would prefer Deron over Rondo, but that's besides the point. Once you sign Deron you can't trade him... so Rondo would have to be the guy you move. Luckily Rondo (as a top 6 PG himself) should have significant value on the open market. Something along the lines of a Josh Smith or a Al Jefferson isn't out of the question.
You can't convince people that Dwill can carry the franchise. He can't even carry the nets out of lottery. Trading Rondo away for a max player that have double the amount of his contract and signing dwill for max will kill our cap flexibility.How many times do I have to say this. We wouldn't be trading Rondo for Deron in my hypothetical. We'd be signing Deron and then presumably trading the lesser point guard (Rondo) for an allstar who plays a different position.
To tell you, I think even Red wouldn't trade Rondo either if he is the only best player on the team. He traded an all-star in Ed Macauley for Bill Russell but that's because Bob Cousy is still on the team. He traded a valuable piece in Gerald Henderson for a top pick in Len Bias because Larry Bird is still in his prime. Unless this team have another young proven on the team, you don't just trade star players for the sake of trading. Name me players we can get at the expense of Rondo.
QuoteIt's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.
Again, it's a small sample size considering how long the two are on the floor. The stat you're citing is largely irrelevant.
QuoteOk, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.
This is...what?
So instead of doing a direct head to head comparison of PER, in which Deron steadily outperforms Rondo and has his whole career (which you, by the way, dismiss as a stat that favors scorers...interestingly enough, Deron has averaged more assists in his career than Rondo, but I'm sure you'll find someway to dismiss that)...
You compare the PERs of each point guard to how their counterparts performed in games against them and then take the difference to measure impact of a game. This is a total stretch for a number of reasons...the first of which is that Rondo plays in a much better defensive system and that having one of the best defensive big men in the game behind you is a huge boon which allows him to gamble a lot more.
But you disregard that almost every single individual stat, both in sabremetric and traditional numbers, favor Deron. Williams also happens to run a more efficient offense.
For those of you who don't understand "big picture", let me spell it out for you. We aren't a contender this year. Three of our 4 best players are 35+ years old. Signing Deron Williams (young franchise player) and then moving Rondo to the highest bidder is actually probably our "best case" scenario here.
a hypothetical question: if we do end up getting Deron, how will the guard rotation going to be like?
Rondo/Bradley
Deron/Ray Allen (if he comes back for cheap again)
man that guard lineup would be NASTY
Haha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
my god... the way some of you talk about Rondo, you'd think he was better than Magic Johnson or something. Good lord.
He's a top 6 point guard. I love him. He's fantastic. Celtics love him. He's not going anywhere.
Rose, Deron and Chris Paul are better. If I could add one of those guys to my team, I'd do it. The Nets gave up a boatload of assets just to rent Deron for a couple seasons and you're telling me you wouldn't be interested in adding him for free?
I appreciate the loyalty to the Green, but all my tommy points are going to soap07 for talkin sense.
QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.
Man it sure would be fun to see how well Rondo would do with Kris Humphries and Anthony Morrow as his best players, though. I imagine more points and a lot less assists... his lack of shooting ability would bury him.
QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.
Sorry if this is hard for you to see. From your numbers, the Nets are 21st in offensive efficiency. So I guess that your claim must be that there are 20 point guards in the league that run an offense better than Deron does. Other people might consider the fact that a player's teammates might have something to do with how good the offense is.
You're trying to claim that Deron doesn't have success because of his teammates, yet you're also claiming that how those players fare when Deron's not playing is somehow irrelevant to the conversation. You can't have it both ways.
To compound problems, he's also a PG. And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't? Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade.
To compound problems, he's also a PG. And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't? Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade.
I don't think there's any possible way you'd make that offer to Deron Williams without a plan to trade Rondo for a big - that's just nonsensical. At the very least, clearing out his contract to make a run for Dwight Howard in 2013. You can't have close to $30M tied up between two point guards, and if you play them together you still haven't solved the problem of Rondo being on the floor and unable to shoot. You can't play Rondo at the 2-guard, he's got to have the ball in his hands to do what he does best). Deron Williams isn't going to sign here to *not* play point guard.
And that's the problem - what appears to be a decided lack of interest in other teams who want Rondo.
So, I agree with you - it doesn't work because he's a PG. I just don't think they would even considering making a max-offer to Williams without having a trade plan for Rondo already lined up.
QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
I don't know if this point has already been made, but the problem with signing Deron Williams is that we can say with a pretty high level of certainty that Rondo doesn't have much trade value around the league. You know that Danny was letting teams know he was available; he wasn't getting terribly good offers (if he did, Rondo would be gone right now).You bring up an excellent point. All the noise surrounding the Celtics said were that they were shopping Rondo hard. I think there is more concern with his attitude behind the scenes than they are letting on. Unfortunately, teams outside of Boston don't see Rondo as that valuable. Supposedly Golden State turned down trading Steph Curry for Rondo and the Lakers turned down trading an aging Pau Gasol for Rondo.
Then, add in the fact that teams are going to know that Danny would be desperate to move Rondo.
So yeah, you *might* incrementally improve the team by signing Deron. You're going to have to get rid of Rondo, and I really don't think you're going to get all that much for him.
glad you love it. I aim to please ;)QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing? Are we just making stuff up for fun? In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger. Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.glad you love it. I aim to please ;)QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
it's not just rebounding. it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well. when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception. That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year. Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception. That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year. Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.
So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.
He's 26 right now. 27 next year. 28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception. That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year. Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up. if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted. is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing? Are we just making stuff up for fun? In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger. Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.glad you love it. I aim to please ;)QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
it's not just rebounding. it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well. when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
He's 26 right now. 27 next year. 28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception. That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year. Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing? Are we just making stuff up for fun? In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger. Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.glad you love it. I aim to please ;)QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
it's not just rebounding. it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well. when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
He's 26 right now. 27 next year. 28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception. That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year. Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up. if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted. is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing? Are we just making stuff up for fun? In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger. Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.glad you love it. I aim to please ;)QuoteI wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
it's not just rebounding. it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well. when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
I noticed you responded to everyone else's comments and glazed over my original post. You still haven't addressed those points. here's the original post so you don't have to go back to page 4 to find it. feel free to respond but at this point after reading your condescending, arrogant and quite frankly pig-headed responses to people who disagree with you, I really don't care what you're response is. I'll probably get banned for saying that but it is what it is.
Bottom line, your thought process on this is not the slamdunk, foolproof, genius idea that you think it is. There are other angles to it that people see and feel are sufficient to make an argument not to make this move. People will disagree with you for purely basketball reasons, not personal, even though you've used a fairly personal tone when responding to those people.
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ORIGINAL POST
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason. Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons. First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot. Everything else, Rondo does as well or better. Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.
The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs. Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.
I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips). That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth. Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.
Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.I'm not sure I'd want Melo even though he is better, but if they would give up Amare, I'd probably do that. Then you go with KG, Amare, Pierce, Bradley, and Williams. Seems like a pretty solid lineup going forward.
Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.Yeah Who I agreed with both of your points. Signing Deron is a major longshot. He's either staying in Brooklyn (I still say they trade for Dwight) or fleeing to Dallas.
Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.
So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities:
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wallQuoteWhile watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.QuoteRondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.
Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall. I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league. The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian. Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists. Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there. Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists.
Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars. Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing? Who is coming off screens? Who is setting screens? How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does? How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots?
The writer of the article responded:QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.
So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities:
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wallQuoteWhile watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.QuoteRondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.
Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall. I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league. The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian. Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists. Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there. Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists.
Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars. Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing? Who is coming off screens? Who is setting screens? How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does? How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots?
Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.
This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________
So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.
Most of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..
Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -
1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.
2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…
Judging by said poll, I'm in the minority here. I freely admit it. My opinions aren't popular. But one thing I always believe is that you NEED a franchise player to win a championship. As much as I love Rondo (and I DO love him despite what people must assume from these threads), I do NOT see Rondo as a franchise player. He's an excellent PG. He's top 6 in this league. Three years from now he might not even be top 10 (Irving, Rubio, Steph Curry and Wall could all surpass him... Brandon Jennings is only 21... I wouldn't even be shocked to see him surpass Rondo. You never know)... My point is, very shortly the offseason will begin and there very likely will be a franchise player sitting there in free agency. My question was simple... do you offer him a contract or not? I'd do it. I'd have to do it. Even if it didnt' work out, I'd still have my Rondo chip and my Deron chip... and those guys BOTH have a ton of trade value heading forward. You see it as PG and PG... I see it as all-star chip and all-star chip.
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.Yeah Who I agreed with both of your points. Signing Deron is a major longshot. He's either staying in Brooklyn (I still say they trade for Dwight) or fleeing to Dallas.
Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
But hypothetically speaking, I think adding Deron has the most potential to make us immediately relevant. And yes, I see no reason why Rondo (or Deron mid-season) couldn't be moved for Melo. That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about... it makes no sense to trade Rondo for Melo in 2011-12... who would play PG? But if you had Deron on board, you'd have the flexibility to offer Rondo up to the highest bidder. If the highest bidder is Melo, then maybe you take that. If the highest bidder is two lotto picks, then maybe you take that (and free up enough cap space to add a THIRD star free agent).
Seems you'd be in the "sure, I'd offer Deron a contract and figure it out from there" camp. If I owned the Celtics and you were one of my GM candidates... I'd consider hiring you.
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
Why pay max money for a PG when you can win with
BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Steve Kerr
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Platoon of Jason Williams and Old Gary Payton
Rajon Rondo
Old Jason Kidd
No ... but why does Deron sign if there is any chance that they may move him in the near future?I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
Is that against the rules?
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
The writer of the article responded:QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.
So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities:
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wallQuoteWhile watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.QuoteRondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.
Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall. I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league. The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian. Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists. Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there. Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists.
Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars. Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing? Who is coming off screens? Who is setting screens? How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does? How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots?
Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.
This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________
So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.QuoteMost of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..
Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -
1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.
2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…
anyhow... That's comparing JOHN WALL to Rondo. I don't see John Wall as being better than Rondo. Deron is, though. What's Deron's numbers?
Alright man I get it. You win. Rondo is better than Deron. Fine.The writer of the article responded:QuoteHaha. Maybe if you claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0
I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.
So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.
So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities:
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wallQuoteWhile watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.QuoteRondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.
Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall. I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league. The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian. Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists. Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there. Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists.
Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars. Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing? Who is coming off screens? Who is setting screens? How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does? How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots?
Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.
This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________
So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.QuoteMost of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..
Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -
1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.
2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…
anyhow... That's comparing JOHN WALL to Rondo. I don't see John Wall as being better than Rondo. Deron is, though. What's Deron's numbers?
The author is a John Wall fan, the post is on a Wizards equivalent of celticsblog. Again, if there's "nothing special" about what Rondo does, why are the same plays so much less likely to work without Rondo running them? The boost in efficiency from Rondo's assists is 250% of the average. It's not slightly above average, but tremendously above average.
You might want to pay attention to part of what you quoted though:
"Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim."
So put Rondo with more athletic players and he'll get those assists that Wall gets, plus he'll have players running with him in transition (where he's much better than Wall). Look at all the easy baskets Wilcox got from Rondo's assists. It's more likely his assists will go up than drop with different teammates.
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?
No ... but why does Deron sign if there is any chance that they may move him in the near future?I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
Is that against the rules?
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score. He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
I floated the idea of Josh Smith or Al Jefferson. Those were easy, because Smith wants out of Atlanta and I'm sure they'd JUMP at getting a top 6 point guard to pair with Horford. IN jefferson's case, they already have two big men sitting on their bench who are their future (Favors and Kanter) and would probably GLADLY bring in Rondo (I mean shoot... especially if Rondo actually IS better than Deron) ...even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?
We're splitting hairs here. Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick. This was the first example that popped into my head. It's an exaggerated form. You get my point, man. When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score. He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Ha, ha. I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.
By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages? Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
We're splitting hairs here. Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick. This was the first example that popped into my head. It's an exaggerated form. You get my point, man. When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score. He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Ha, ha. I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.
By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages? Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
I floated the idea of Josh Smith or Al Jefferson. Those were easy, because Smith wants out of Atlanta and I'm sure they'd JUMP at getting a top 6 point guard to pair with Horford. IN jefferson's case, they already have two big men sitting on their bench who are their future (Favors and Kanter) and would probably GLADLY bring in Rondo (I mean shoot... especially if Rondo actually IS better than Deron) ...even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?
But perhaps Rondo's value is even greater than that. I didn't want to suggest anything outrageous. One poster just mentioned Melo. I could see it (Lin isn't that good). I offered up the pipe dream of Rondo + both 1st rounders for Dwight to appease the fans who think Rondo is a superstar.... and also, because landing Deron might convince Dwight to demand a trade to Boston. He wants to play with Deron desperately.
So I'll put Rondo's value somewhere between Josh Smith and Dwight Howard. But personally I'm in favor of trading Rondo for someone still on their rookie contract so that we can free up additional cap room. Rondo for DeMarcus Cousins, for example. you do that, you'd have money left over to bring back KG and Ray to play with Pierce, Cousins and Deron.
Again, none of this matters because Deron is either sticking in Brooklyn or going to Dallas. Still... there's some pipe dreams we could think about. If Orlando's situation gets worse and they decide to trade Dwight... I can see the Nets offering a big package centered on Brook Lopez (hoping to land Dwight and convince Deron to re-sign)... Maybe at that point we call up Deron and say, "hey... if we trade Rondo and picks for Dwight will you sign with us?"
When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.
We're splitting hairs here. Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick. This was the first example that popped into my head. It's an exaggerated form. You get my point, man. When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score. He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Ha, ha. I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.
By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages? Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
I get your point, man, but I don't buy that there's any validity to saying that Divac is to Shaq as Rondo is to Williams. Using that kind of logic would not get you too far on one of those Miller's Analogy Tests.
If there are better examples, then I would suggest you use those instead.
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.
franchise PG.
When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.
Deron Williams is not a franchise player.
We're splitting hairs here. Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick. This was the first example that popped into my head. It's an exaggerated form. You get my point, man. When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.I agree, Who. I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing. Lol. I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.
I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers. Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe. I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score. He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Ha, ha. I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.
By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages? Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
I get your point, man, but I don't buy that there's any validity to saying that Divac is to Shaq as Rondo is to Williams. Using that kind of logic would not get you too far on one of those Miller's Analogy Tests.
If there are better examples, then I would suggest you use those instead.
I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
franchise PG.
Bob Cousy. Magic Johnson. Isaiah Thomas. These are franchise PGs. Deron Williams is not.
Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.
Eh... man... that's the best I can do. Couldn't think of anything better. I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG. Way off.
There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year. Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count. Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players. When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available. But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available. It's big picture stuff.Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.
Eh... man... that's the best I can do. Couldn't think of anything better. I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG. Way off.
There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year. Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count. Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
I agree, I would sign Deron Williams or essentially no one (one year deals only). He is the only free agent worth signing long term.There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players. When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available. But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available. It's big picture stuff.Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.I'd have to think about it a bit. How about the Suns. 26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals. I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the KnicksQuoteMarbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]
Suns go from winning 29 games to 62. Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards. Does that one count or should I keep looking?
I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?
Answer- No
We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...
Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.
Eh... man... that's the best I can do. Couldn't think of anything better. I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG. Way off.
There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year. Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count. Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players. When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available. But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available. It's big picture stuff.
The big picture of signing a player to max money ay a position that it matters the least to have a top 5 player in? That big picture?
Rondo is the best overall point guard in the NBA. I'm not even going to discuss this any further. The best PG in NBA history (Magic Johnson) seems to think so too. editWe are talking about the Deron Williams that won 4 playoff series in 4 seasons with the Utah Jazz. The team that went from 26 wins without Deron to 41 wins in Deron's first season.
Deron is not a winner. Rondo is a winner. Deron is the perfect example of a "I get mine, look-at-me im flashy, I shoot like a god, I'm so perfect, but I can't get out the first round type of player" CC Melo.
Deron is an ELITE scorer, don't get me wrong. But not so much a great point guard. Defensively he's trash. He doesnt see the court like Rondo can, and his BBall IQ is no where near Rondo's. Plus, scoring point guards don't win championships anyway.
So I'll pass on giving this guy a max contract, thanks.(http://forums.celticsblog.com/Themes/sbn/images/warnwarn.gif) edit - No personal attacks or calling out posters. wdleehi
It's hard to think about a point guard replacement with the way Rondo has been playing. And what if we get Williams, and then teams lowball us on Rondo offers. We can't have both.Why not? Clippers were playing great with Paul and Billups. Rondo and Williams are of a similar size as those two and Williams is much bigger and stronger than Bradley. From a basketball standpoint it would work just fine.
why? Rondo's skillset is far better than Deron Williams. I can't comprehend the fascination with Deron "Diva" Williams.TP.