CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on November 10, 2012, 03:54:52 PM
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FWIW, this season is playing out exactly as I imagined. I had us playing .500 ball until at least January when we can explore trading some of our assets for an upgraded big. I think there's little question that's our main issue... size next to KG. Neither Bass or Sullinger is a starting big man in this league. Beyond those two it's a bunch of min contract bums.
At SG, we're trotting out a trio of averageness. Lee, Terry and Barbosa are all effective backup guards. They are somewhat redundant, though. I don't really feel Bradley is any better than them... when he comes back you'll have 4 redundant undersized backup shooting guards.
Cut Jeff Green some slack, though. I think he should be starting... and starting at his natural position (SF). He's not a big man. That was his issue in Oklahoma. He needs to be starting with Rondo and running the floor.
My eventual hope is that we can package some of the minimal assets we have (Sullinger, Bradley, Lee, Terry, Bass... whatever) and somehow luck into a real big man (Big Al? Maybe Josh Smith?) ... then I'd be favor of starting Green at SF, moving Pierce to SG and having whatever crap left over come off our bench. Thoughts?
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I would like to see Courtney Lee continue to start at SG but have his minutes cut back drastically. More of a Keith Bogans type starter who plays 16-20 minutes or even 20-24 minutes. Then use those vacant minutes to free up additional playing time for Jason Terry and Jeff Green (alongside Pierce).
I would keep Courtney Lee as the starter because I like his superior quickness defensively (versus Green/Pierce) to open games.
I would consider switching that around when playing teams with either (1) big starting two guards like a Kobe Bryant or Joe Johnson - where I think Pierce is the best defensive option), or, (2) explosive scoring combo guards off the bench which Lee is better suited to defending (say Ben Gordon).
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I would like to see Courtney Lee continue to start at SG but have his minutes cut back drastically. More of a Keith Bogans type starter who plays 16-20 minutes or even 20-24 minutes. Then use those vacant minutes to free up additional playing time for Jason Terry and Jeff Green (alongside Pierce).
I would keep Courtney Lee as the starter because I like his superior quickness defensively (versus Green/Pierce) to open games.
I would consider switching that around when playing teams with either (1) big starting two guards like a Kobe Bryant or Joe Johnson - where I think Pierce is the best defensive option), or, (2) explosive scoring combo guards off the bench which Lee is better suited to defending (say Ben Gordon).
It's tough to do it right now, because then we'd have 3 redundant undersized guards coming off our bench... but it would be interesting to see how the team would play for a few games with Green starting at SF and Pierce starting at SG. Let the undersized teams adapt to us... as opposed to constantly trying to match up to our competition.
Mid January can't get here soon enough. Can't wait to see what this team looks like after the trade deadline. I've been saying it since this summer... this roster doesn't make any sense right now.
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I don't feel comfortable with Paul as a full time shooting guard. I mean no disrespect to the Captain, but he currently looks pretty slow at the 3. I'd move him to power forward at this stage of his career before I moved him to shooting guard.
I think our guard rotation is just fine, and I completely agree with Who that Jet should be getting the lion's share of the minutes at the two.
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I wish starting PP at the 2 could work. I mean I like it when we are on offense. I just don't think PP is going to be able to match up with many 2's when he is playing D, he is too slow. PP is a great def at the 3, but he is even slow for that position in certain matchups. Plus we seem to be getting beat of the dribble a lot to the lane with our current lineup. How much worse would that get with PP at the 2?
If we trade for J Smith putting him at the 4 instead of sully or BB I think PP at the 2 might work because J Smith is a way better help defender.
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He should. Jeff green is useless coming off the bench and we need to try another route...add to that Courtney is terrible then it should be a no brainer!
Pierce himself has been bad though and something that ran through my mind is if we brought him off the bench to start green and get his minutes down would he feel disrespected and want out like ray? I say yes
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I think it's worth a shot if this keeps up. Is Pierce really any worse at guarding 2s then Kobe is at this point.
Lee isn't making much of an impact and WE HAVE TO GET MORE from Jeff Green.
That being said. It's been five games. Lets get to 12-15 games and see how we are doing.
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Haha! Yeah, if we could get Smith without giving up Green, I'd love to see a line-up of Rondo, Pierce, Green, Smith, KG. I'd substitute Big Al into that line-up, but Green would likely be gone.
Heck, I'd like to see more of Pierce & Green at SG/SF regardless.
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If PP is going to get a shot at sg it won't come until after Bradley gets back and shows that he can't play as well as he did last year.
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What does Pierce give us at SG? They are not playing poorly because of lack of length/height at the 3/4 positions, they are playing poorly because their defense is sucks and they are turning the ball over.
Pierce is a turnover machine. We know this. He is also getting old. We know this. Playing him at guard is a terrible idea.
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I like the idea of Green playing with the starters and having Pierce and Green on the floor at the same time.
Let's go big at the 2-3 to start the game. A staring line-up of KG, Bass/Wilcox, PP, Green and Rondo sounds pretty formidable to me.
Lots of teams have oversized 2s: Paul George, Kevin Durant, etc.
Pierce can defend the 3 and Green the 2. Offensively, there is a lot of versatility there.
Whoever doesn't start at the 4 can be the 1st sub in for KG. Terry can be next in for PP and Green can then defend the 3.
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That being said. It's been five games. Lets get to 12-15 games and see how we are doing.
I kinda feel like this should be the standard response to 2 out of 3 threads right now. Did Jeff Green have a bad start? Its been 5 games, he's coming back from a year off in a role he never really had a chance to solidify in the first place. Takes time.
Are the new guys not as good as we hoped? its been 5 games, and of the new guys we're hoping to contribute, 1 is a rookie and 1 is leandro barbosa.
Are the Knicks/Bulls/whoever besides the Heat looking good right now? ITS BEEN 5 GAMES. Everything has been 5 games. They're all 5 games. 5 games, all day every day. Until there are 6.
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That being said. It's been five games. Lets get to 12-15 games and see how we are doing.
I kinda feel like this should be the standard response to 2 out of 3 threads right now. Did Jeff Green have a bad start? Its been 5 games, he's coming back from a year off in a role he never really had a chance to solidify in the first place. Takes time.
Are the new guys not as good as we hoped? its been 5 games, and of the new guys we're hoping to contribute, 1 is a rookie and 1 is leandro barbosa.
Are the Knicks/Bulls/whoever besides the Heat looking good right now? ITS BEEN 5 GAMES. Everything has been 5 games. They're all 5 games. 5 games, all day every day. Until there are 6.
For what it's worth, I want it to be noted that I created this thread before Jeff showed some signs of life against the Bucks. I don't care if it's 1 game, 5 games, 10 games or 20 games... we're paying Jeff Green starters money... he's our 4th best player... and it makes sense for him to be starting at his natural SF position.
I don't think another 10-20 games is going to change what I know about Lee, Terry and Barbosa. They are solid backups. Bradley is a tough one to put a finger on, though. His handful of solid games weren't enough to prove to me he was a future "star"... but I understand why people are optimistic.
It might not be the right time to start Green and Pierce at the same time. We need to continue feeding minutes to our guards so hopefully we can entice teams to trade for them in a couple months. But come January, I think this is what I'm expecting to see. Pile some assets together for a quality big. Start PG - Rondo, SG - Pierce, SF - Green, Big 1 - KG, Big 2 - ? ... Whoever is left can come off the bench. If we somehow manage to keep Bradley, I can see him being an effective little defensive pest off the bench that we can utilize against smaller guards. Basically a smaller version of what Tony Allen was for us... although Tony had a bit more size to deal with the larger guards like Kobe.
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Not sure if you can get a solid big man out of Sullinger, Bass, and Lee.
C's need Bradley. He's the best defensive guard on the team and will pay dividends in the playoffs.
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I like Pierce at SG with Green on the floor at SF. Not for the whole game of course but for key stretches.
I think Milicic would be the best 5th guys to go along with that line up (Rondo, PP, JG, KG, Darko) but it is clear that Darko has not earned Doc's trust.
I think they should play Bradley at back-up PG when he comes back to reduce Rondo's minutes, we have plenty of other SGs. Barbosa then moves down the bench.
Terry is the best of the rest in terms of SG and will be on the court at SG more than Bradley. That is part of why I think it is so important to get Bradley on the court at back-up PG.
See, got it all figured out.
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I like Pierce at SG with Green on the floor at SF. Not for the whole game of course but for key stretches.
I think Milicic would be the best 5th guys to go along with that line up (Rondo, PP, JG, KG, Darko) but it is clear that Darko has not earned Doc's trust.
I think they should play Bradley at back-up PG when he comes back to reduce Rondo's minutes, we have plenty of other SGs. Barbosa then moves down the bench.
Terry is the best of the rest in terms of SG and will be on the court at SG more than Bradley. That is part of why I think it is so important to get Bradley on the court at back-up PG.
See, got it all figured out.
leaving out one GIANT detail. Who is backup SF? I love that lineup. Only if you have another reliable SF behind Green and Pierce. Pietrus comes to mind.
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I like Pierce at SG with Green on the floor at SF. Not for the whole game of course but for key stretches.
I think Milicic would be the best 5th guys to go along with that line up (Rondo, PP, JG, KG, Darko) but it is clear that Darko has not earned Doc's trust.
I think they should play Bradley at back-up PG when he comes back to reduce Rondo's minutes, we have plenty of other SGs. Barbosa then moves down the bench.
Terry is the best of the rest in terms of SG and will be on the court at SG more than Bradley. That is part of why I think it is so important to get Bradley on the court at back-up PG.
See, got it all figured out.
This is an intriguing approach. I think it works well when we are in a half court type game. Maybe we are not as effective defensively in a running game.
I would love to see a healthy Darko starting at the 5 for us. I dont care if he only plays 15 mpg, he is a decent passer, a force in the paint and a fair shot blocker.
I do think when Bradley comes back, he is a guy that impacts the game significantly on defense and we have to play him at the SG for decent minutes.
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Green and Pierce at sg and sf is the best lineup i've seen.
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I like Pierce at SG with Green on the floor at SF. Not for the whole game of course but for key stretches.
I think Milicic would be the best 5th guys to go along with that line up (Rondo, PP, JG, KG, Darko) but it is clear that Darko has not earned Doc's trust.
I think they should play Bradley at back-up PG when he comes back to reduce Rondo's minutes, we have plenty of other SGs. Barbosa then moves down the bench.
Terry is the best of the rest in terms of SG and will be on the court at SG more than Bradley. That is part of why I think it is so important to get Bradley on the court at back-up PG.
See, got it all figured out.
leaving out one GIANT detail. Who is backup SF? I love that lineup. Only if you have another reliable SF behind Green and Pierce. Pietrus comes to mind.
Well, I didn't point this out directly but Pierce plays say 35 minutes and Green plays say 25 minutes, total 60 minutes. There are only 48 as SF so Pierce can play 12 minutes at SG.
This only works if Green plays well; better than Terry and Lee. If Green doesn't play well, there is no reason to do this.
I like this becasue it is a way to get more size on the court. I prefer "tall ball" to "small ball" when you can.
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The perfect starting lineup is Pierce at the 2 and Green at the 3
Pierce may not be as fast as the shooting guards at the league, but he can keep up, and they'll have a hard time guarding him. And Green needs to be in the starting lineup. He can be way more effective if he gets more minutes. Plus he sucks at playing the 4
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I like Pierce at SG with Green on the floor at SF. Not for the whole game of course but for key stretches.
I think Milicic would be the best 5th guys to go along with that line up (Rondo, PP, JG, KG, Darko) but it is clear that Darko has not earned Doc's trust.
I think they should play Bradley at back-up PG when he comes back to reduce Rondo's minutes, we have plenty of other SGs. Barbosa then moves down the bench.
Terry is the best of the rest in terms of SG and will be on the court at SG more than Bradley. That is part of why I think it is so important to get Bradley on the court at back-up PG.
See, got it all figured out.
leaving out one GIANT detail. Who is backup SF? I love that lineup. Only if you have another reliable SF behind Green and Pierce. Pietrus comes to mind.
Courtney Lee would have to play more backup 3. No one said Pierce and Green had to play ALL their minutes simultaneously.
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I've been saying it since this summer... this roster doesn't make any sense right now.
The roster will make sense once Bradley gets back.
Rondo - Bradley - Pierce - Bass - KG
That lineup KILLED teams last year. I can't emphasize that enough. They KILLED opponents. Great offensively, incredible defensively.
112 offensive rating, 92 defensive rating. Kapow.
What the team needs to do right now is sort out the rest of the supporting cast and figure out a good bench rotation so that when Bradley comes back and slots into the starting lineup, the secondary lineups can properly support and complement the main one.
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As much as I think a lineup of pierce at the two and green at the three is part of our best lineup, I don't think it should be our starting lineup. Green needs minutes to produce and contribute and he can get them coming off the bench. I don't think pierce starting at the two is our best move.
But then comes the question of who starts. Do we start terry, have Wilcox and green come off the bench first for him and Garnett then have lee eventually come in for pierce then reinsert terry to give rondo an end of quarter break? Actually. I kind of like that.
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Start KG, Wilcox, Pierce, Lee and Rondo. Bring in Bass for KG, Green for Lee, and Terry for Rondo. Use Sullinger or Darko for a couple minutes to spell Wilcox before KG comes back in. Move Terry to the SG and bring Rondo back in when we sit Pierce.
Starters
KG
Wilcox
Pierce
Lee
Rondo
Subs
Wilcox
Bass PF
Green SF
Pierce SG
Terry PG
Second Subs
Sullinger/Darko
Bass
Green
Terry
Rondo
Third subs
KG
Green
Pierce
Lee
Rondo
And so on......
Use Pierce as a SG but dont start him there.
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just to remember you some bad matchups
"Jennings was fabulous tonight - lightning quick, hitting shots," Sixers coach Doug Collins said. "He and Monta Ellis, I don't know if there's a faster two-guard lineup out there than those two guys."
Ellis added 18 points and seven assists for the Bucks (4-2), who shot 51.3 percent from the field and overcame 23 turnovers by building a 48-31 rebounding advantage.
Jrue Holiday scored 25 points
Pierce yes.. against one or two
starting.. not sold
maybe 5 or 6 years ago
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just to remember you some bad matchups
"Jennings was fabulous tonight - lightning quick, hitting shots," Sixers coach Doug Collins said. "He and Monta Ellis, I don't know if there's a faster two-guard lineup out there than those two guys."
Ellis added 18 points and seven assists for the Bucks (4-2), who shot 51.3 percent from the field and overcame 23 turnovers by building a 48-31 rebounding advantage.
Jrue Holiday scored 25 points
Pierce yes.. against one or two
starting.. not sold
maybe 5 or 6 years ago
Doug Collins obviously forgot about Rondo and Bradley
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FWIW, this season is playing out exactly as I imagined. I had us playing .500 ball until at least January when we can explore trading some of our assets for an upgraded big. I think there's little question that's our main issue... size next to KG. Neither Bass or Sullinger is a starting big man in this league. Beyond those two it's a bunch of min contract bums.
At SG, we're trotting out a trio of averageness. Lee, Terry and Barbosa are all effective backup guards. They are somewhat redundant, though. I don't really feel Bradley is any better than them... when he comes back you'll have 4 redundant undersized backup shooting guards.
Cut Jeff Green some slack, though. I think he should be starting... and starting at his natural position (SF). He's not a big man. That was his issue in Oklahoma. He needs to be starting with Rondo and running the floor.
My eventual hope is that we can package some of the minimal assets we have (Sullinger, Bradley, Lee, Terry, Bass... whatever) and somehow luck into a real big man (Big Al? Maybe Josh Smith?) ... then I'd be favor of starting Green at SF, moving Pierce to SG and having whatever crap left over come off our bench. Thoughts?
Whoa hold up...you're calling Jason Terry and Avery Bradley 'average' and 'redundant'??
Jason Terry is one of the best sixth men and clutch scorers of this generation, and is second all-time in 3 pointers made. Even if you ignore history and only look at his current season his value to us is obvious. He is our fourth leading scorer so far (12 PPG, 50% FG, 38% 3PT, 93% FT, 25 MPG) and has scored at least 8 points in every one of our first 6 games. Terry ranked above both Lebron and Wade in clutch scoring last season - that's a hell of a feat. He's also our only genuine backup for Rondo at the PG spot - Barbosa can handle the position in spots, but only Terry is really capable of running the point if Rondo (god forbid) has to miss a game [edit: which may well happen after today].
Avery Bradley is arguably the best 1-on-1 perimeter defender in the entire league. You can make an argument for Tony Allen, but that's about it. There is no other player I can think of at the SG spot who gets up into every opposing players face full court the way Bradley does on defense. When he's not directly forcing turnovers with his ball pressure he's taking 5-10 seconds off the opposition's shot clock on every such possession, forcing teams out of their rythym and forcing them to rush their offense. He's also a competent offensive player who can score on back door cuts, on the fast break and with his (now pretty solid) jumper. Last season he had a greater net positive impact on our team then any other player on our roster not named Kevin Garnett. In the playoffs he was actually #1.
Terry and Bradley are not average or redundant players. Both guys bring the type of speciliast skills that win games - Terry with his clutch scoring and Bradley with his ability to shut down elite opposing guards.
Barbosa is somewhat redundant, although he does have a unique gift in his ability to use his speed to get to the basket - something that is also very important for a team that otherwise takes way too many jump shots.
I would say that Courtney Lee is average and is truly redundant - he doesn't have any real skill that either Terry, Bradley or Barbosa does not or any specific skill he excels at. What the other three guys bring can make up for what you lose if Lee goes. I just don't get how you can call Terry and Bradley redundant though...the term 'redundant'suggests that they are not needed, and that the team loses nothing if we get rid of them - that's definately not true.
I believe that right now our most redundant players are Courtney Lee, Bass / Sully (either one) and Darko/Collins (either one).
Courtney is already getting minimal playing time so he'll get practically none once Bradley comes back. Wilcox has been backing up and PF and center so we only need one out of the Bass/Sully combo. Neither Collins nor Darko are getting any playing time, so either one of those guys is is currently a total waste of roster space right now.