Author Topic: Patriots 2017 season  (Read 76857 times)

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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #270 on: December 18, 2017, 03:29:50 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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To me in one replay it definitely doesn't look like he had it long enough to be a runner and has to have it all the way down and didn't. It reminds me of I think the Buffalo Bill that had the ball in the end zone for a nanosecond until I think Butler popped it out and they said that wasn't long enough to establish a catch.

On a different replay I wasn't as sure.

But I'm not a ref
The NFL has a full breakdown on what it means to "establish oneself as a runner".

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/
So he didn't maintain control long enough to be a runner because it all happened in less than half a second. Makes sense I suppose.

That video is good and clear with some of the bolded stuff.

You can tell the rule has been written by a committee.
The rulebook clearly demonstrates that "long" is a concept measured in football actions, and not seconds.
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Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #271 on: December 18, 2017, 04:15:50 PM »

Offline Eja117

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To me in one replay it definitely doesn't look like he had it long enough to be a runner and has to have it all the way down and didn't. It reminds me of I think the Buffalo Bill that had the ball in the end zone for a nanosecond until I think Butler popped it out and they said that wasn't long enough to establish a catch.

On a different replay I wasn't as sure.

But I'm not a ref
The NFL has a full breakdown on what it means to "establish oneself as a runner".

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/completing-a-catch/
So he didn't maintain control long enough to be a runner because it all happened in less than half a second. Makes sense I suppose.

That video is good and clear with some of the bolded stuff.

You can tell the rule has been written by a committee.
The rulebook clearly demonstrates that "long" is a concept measured in football actions, and not seconds.
The rulebook says you have to be capable of certain actions like tucking the ball away or turning up field.

He was capable of that is what I would expect Pittsburg to say.

It also says If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

So maybe the NFL is saying that he lost it so it doesn't matter.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #272 on: December 18, 2017, 05:37:09 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Last night was yet another addition to the 17 year (and counting) thrill ride that is the Brady/Beichick Patriots.   I dont really care if anyone hates the call or thinks it's the wrong call or thinks it's an NFL conspiracy, the Pats pulled out the miracle and the ride continues for now.

Objectively, I can't fathom why the rule book would make that a 'no catch'.  My eyes tell me he caught it, controlled it, held it, stretched out, broke the plane and scored.  But I'll gladly take it.  What a great game.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #273 on: December 18, 2017, 05:41:33 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Regarding Garoppolo, I don't see how you can watch that game yesterday and think that he will ever be nearly as good as Brady (or Roethlisberger for that matter).  I think Garoppolo is about Alex Smith at best and let's see if he even achieves that.  He is playing fine but it has been the Bears, Texans, and Titans.  I predict he will not do as well against the Jags and Rams.
The Titans have one of the top defenses in the league (the Steelers, by the way, don't -- that's since you mentioned yesterday's game). Garropolo marched right up their gut to set up his kicker for the game-winning FG. What he's done with the bunch of useless spare parts they served up to him in SF is impressive. Add to this the fact that he took over Brady's team last season and we had no dropoff, and I'm ready to call this.

Also, Garropolo is nothing like Alex Smith. If anything he's  the polar opposite of Alex Smith. He's a QB who will make things happen to win, not just someone who you can trust to not lose you the game.

My comparison to Alex Smith is more in terms of overall level of success achieved, not necessarily style of play.  So Garoppolo may be Alex Smith but with more big plays, more  interceptions and I predict more injuries.  Garappolo is playing well.  I am very happy for him.  Jacoby Brissett is playing well too.  I would not have minded if we got a little bit more for either of them but I do not share your preemptive regret that we traded away a player that is going to be a star for 10 years.  We may have a shot to pick a better QB with the second round pick (that Jimmy is doing his best to diminish).

Oh, and per the bolded note, Jacoby won a game too.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #274 on: December 18, 2017, 06:48:12 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Brady just continues to amaze me, dude is the greatest QB ever!  Most guys would feel the pressure in this game but he just wanted the ball back so he could lead his team down the field.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #275 on: December 18, 2017, 07:06:36 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Last night was yet another addition to the 17 year (and counting) thrill ride that is the Brady/Beichick Patriots.   I dont really care if anyone hates the call or thinks it's the wrong call or thinks it's an NFL conspiracy, the Pats pulled out the miracle and the ride continues for now.

Objectively, I can't fathom why the rule book would make that a 'no catch'.  My eyes tell me he caught it, controlled it, held it, stretched out, broke the plane and scored.  But I'll gladly take it.  What a great game.
There is a very good reason for it.

In your scenario a guy could "catch" the ball, immediately go down, and so long as he crosses the plane before he loses control everything is good.

But this opens up a whole can of worms.

What if the ball flies wildly out of the receiver's hands a split second after he crosses the plane? Did he truly establish control if he can't hold on through that simple action? What if he briefly looked like he had control but really didn't? How short a time does he have to have it before he touches the plane for it to count?


The current rule removes all this ambiguity. After a reception you must control the ball all the way through the ground or you don't receive credit for a catch. It doesn't matter what part of the field you're on. Just hold on to the ball all the way through the ground. It's the player's responsibility to know these rules and follow them.


If the Pittsburgh receiver had just barely crossed the plane after the catch and then lost the ball in mid-air and still gotten credit for a TD Pats fans would be livid.


Truth is that football is a very tough game to officiate, and someone is going to be angry every time. Like on that 37-yard reception by Cooks that was called back because he was shoved out of bounds and was the first to touch the ball. He really only had one leg out of bounds for half a second before he jumped back in, and still it was enough. He beat his man but lost the reception due to a technicality. It didn't "feel" right, and yet there are good reasons for the rule.

The best teams - like the Patriots - know the intricacies and use it to their advantage (Malcolm Butler's goal-line strip-fumble earlier in the year for a touchback is a good example). The others are left with excuses and conspiracy theories.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #276 on: December 18, 2017, 07:46:49 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #277 on: December 18, 2017, 08:21:07 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.

I think he needs to go back to having a positive TD/INT ratio, but Brady should be the front-runner - so long as the Pats win these last two games. Besides, the best football player of all-time should have more than two MVP awards.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #278 on: December 18, 2017, 08:27:28 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.

I think he needs to go back to having a positive TD/INT ratio, but Brady should be the front-runner - so long as the Pats win these last two games. Besides, the best football player of all-time should have more than two MVP awards.

Right now it's 28:7 TD:INT ratio, but yeah it's been an abysmal 2:4 ratio last 3 games.

"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #279 on: December 18, 2017, 09:07:39 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.
Brady has been horrible the last three or so games. He might just get it by default because (a) there's not enough time to screw it up completely, and (2) there's noone else who can step up.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #280 on: December 18, 2017, 09:25:57 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.
Brady has been horrible the last three or so games. He might just get it by default because (a) there's not enough time to screw it up completely, and (2) there's noone else who can step up.

He was horrible against Miami, but I thought he was decent against PIT and BUF.

Obviously only threw 2 TDs combined both those PIT/BUF games, but wasn't horrible.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #281 on: December 18, 2017, 09:36:17 PM »

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.
Brady has been horrible the last three or so games. He might just get it by default because (a) there's not enough time to screw it up completely, and (2) there's noone else who can step up.

He was horrible against Miami, but I thought he was decent against PIT and BUF.

Obviously only threw 2 TDs combined both those PIT/BUF games, but wasn't horrible.

Actually not even close to horrible v Buffalo or Pitts.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #282 on: December 19, 2017, 07:30:14 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I think one problem is we more often have these debates about catch/no catch in the end zone. I did see this article with some quotes from Belicheck himself, and the basic point is this:

- Jesse James, when trying to make that catch, was going to the ground, had a knee down, and was reaching in one motion, but was never touched by a defender.

- If that was ruled a touchdown, it would mean that what he did should be a catch anywhere on the field.

- Since he was never touched, the ground COULD cause a fumble, which means if he was just doing that and trying to get a first down at the 50, the people who want that to be a catch would want that to be a catch and fumble if it happened outside the endzone.


https://sports.yahoo.com/m/404d0149-fb61-3067-b596-f6c5e115bab4/ss_patriots'-bill-belichick.html


So that's the unintended consequences thing, and why rules have definitions. If you want that to be a touchdown, get ready to live with a lot more catch and fumbles.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #283 on: December 19, 2017, 07:47:15 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think one problem is we more often have these debates about catch/no catch in the end zone. I did see this article with some quotes from Belicheck himself, and the basic point is this:

- Jesse James, when trying to make that catch, was going to the ground, had a knee down, and was reaching in one motion, but was never touched by a defender.

- If that was ruled a touchdown, it would mean that what he did should be a catch anywhere on the field.

- Since he was never touched, the ground COULD cause a fumble, which means if he was just doing that and trying to get a first down at the 50, the people who want that to be a catch would want that to be a catch and fumble if it happened outside the endzone.


https://sports.yahoo.com/m/404d0149-fb61-3067-b596-f6c5e115bab4/ss_patriots'-bill-belichick.html


So that's the unintended consequences thing, and why rules have definitions. If you want that to be a touchdown, get ready to live with a lot more catch and fumbles.
Not sure what you are trying to say here but whether he was touched or not is inconsequential. No matter where you are on the field, when making a catch while going to the ground, you must maintain complete control of the ball all the way through the entire fall. It doesn't matter where you are or whether you are being touched or have 3 guys on top of you. You must control the ball all the way through the fall.

Re: Patriots 2017 season
« Reply #284 on: December 19, 2017, 08:07:24 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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I mean.. Brady has to be the MVP now, right??

Wentz and AB injured, Wilson has fallen out of it for good pretty much.. it's basically Brady's to lose honestly.
Brady has been horrible the last three or so games. He might just get it by default because (a) there's not enough time to screw it up completely, and (2) there's noone else who can step up.

He was horrible against Miami, but I thought he was decent against PIT and BUF.

Obviously only threw 2 TDs combined both those PIT/BUF games, but wasn't horrible.

Actually not even close to horrible v Buffalo or Pitts.

I guess we are at the point where TB can lead a game-winning drive in the last two minutes, on the road, and someone will call his performance "horrible."