Poll

Given what each would cost, and their respective ages/contracts, who would you want?

Andre Drummond
8 (8.3%)
Myles Turner
20 (20.8%)
Clint Capela
4 (4.2%)
Marc Gasol
4 (4.2%)
Hassan Whiteside
1 (1%)
Jusuf Nurkic
6 (6.3%)
Cody Zeller
4 (4.2%)
Derrick Favors
6 (6.3%)
Steven Adams
11 (11.5%)
A Young Guy
0 (0%)
Dwayne Dedmon
5 (5.2%)
Ehhh, none  are worth what it would cost
27 (28.1%)

Total Members Voted: 96

Author Topic: Big Man Options  (Read 70937 times)

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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #330 on: December 24, 2019, 05:00:38 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Agreed on the sentiment that we should try and contend now.

As unpopular as it is, I still believe in a Hayward for Drummond swap. Drummond does enough of what CBS needs in that he’s a capable enough passer, eats up the glass (which can be a weakness against teams with serious length), and is switchable on D from 3-5 (maybe even 2-5). Plus the bonuses of: interior defense, roll-man target, and solid screen setter. 

Hayward is great. Don’t get me wrong. This is just a case of salaries needing to match, and giving up talent to get talent. We’re not gonna get a quality big for cheap and buy out candidates are likely going to be inferior to Theis/Kanter.

Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond —> our 5 best players to start and finish the game.
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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #331 on: December 26, 2019, 01:49:03 AM »

Offline DooVoo

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Agreed on the sentiment that we should try and contend now.

As unpopular as it is, I still believe in a Hayward for Drummond swap. Drummond does enough of what CBS needs in that he’s a capable enough passer, eats up the glass (which can be a weakness against teams with serious length), and is switchable on D from 3-5 (maybe even 2-5). Plus the bonuses of: interior defense, roll-man target, and solid screen setter. 

Hayward is great. Don’t get me wrong. This is just a case of salaries needing to match, and giving up talent to get talent. We’re not gonna get a quality big for cheap and buy out candidates are likely going to be inferior to Theis/Kanter.

Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond —> our 5 best players to start and finish the game.
Drummond is a stat compiler and a black hole in the middle. If he was ever brought here every Celtics fan would be picking apart his game and the fact we aren't as good with him in the lineup. And the fans who are obsessed with big men would quietly slink away. 

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #332 on: December 26, 2019, 06:57:47 AM »

Offline Fierce1

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I really don't know how the Celts would evaluate Drummond, but one thing's for sure, if an expansion team would join the NBA and had 3 options to choose from among Drummond, Hayward, and Smart, I'm sure that expansion team would pick Drummond #1.

If it's between Hayward and Smart, I think Hayward would be more valuable.

Hayward gives you stability, efficiency, outside shooting, and has the ability to run the point.

Smart gives you excellent defense, leadership, toughness, and he's a very good PG as well.

The problem with Smart is he sometimes hurts you on offense when he takes those ill-advised shots.

So if the Celts are going to trade one of the two, my money is on Smart getting traded.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #333 on: December 26, 2019, 03:25:05 PM »

Offline MichiganAdam

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #334 on: December 26, 2019, 03:31:56 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...
If Hayward is heading out my guess is Ainge would want Stephen Adams.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #335 on: December 26, 2019, 04:02:17 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Kind of like the idea of Jakob Poeltl, big body pretty good defensively doesn't need a ton of touches on offense. He's in the last year of his rookie deal (2016 draft) so his contract is match able with our secondary contracts. Not a huge upgrade but does something the C's need.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #336 on: December 26, 2019, 05:01:53 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Agreed on the sentiment that we should try and contend now.

As unpopular as it is, I still believe in a Hayward for Drummond swap. Drummond does enough of what CBS needs in that he’s a capable enough passer, eats up the glass (which can be a weakness against teams with serious length), and is switchable on D from 3-5 (maybe even 2-5). Plus the bonuses of: interior defense, roll-man target, and solid screen setter. 

Hayward is great. Don’t get me wrong. This is just a case of salaries needing to match, and giving up talent to get talent. We’re not gonna get a quality big for cheap and buy out candidates are likely going to be inferior to Theis/Kanter.

Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond —> our 5 best players to start and finish the game.
Drummond is a stat compiler and a black hole in the middle. If he was ever brought here every Celtics fan would be picking apart his game and the fact we aren't as good with him in the lineup. And the fans who are obsessed with big men would quietly slink away.

A few things:
1. How is he a black hole? His usage is 3rd highest on his team and he doesn’t post up too much (ala Kanter) because his game is more based off of movement and putbacks. Plus, he’s developed more of a passing game. Wasnt Kemba more of a black hole with the Hornets?

2. We don’t know for a fact that we aren’t as good with him. He might actually help us out.

3. To be fair, every Celtics fan picks at all of our players’ games, except maybe Kemba who so far seems immune. From Tatum missing bunnies, Brown falling asleep on D, Smart taking an ill advised shot, Hayward not being aggressive enough, Kanter being burned on the perimeter, Theis getting outmuscled in the paint, etc. etc. I mean, we could trade Hayward for Giannis and I can imagine people would be complaining. For example:

“Teams are just daring him to shoot”, “he kills our spacing”, “he goes one on one too much”, “he’s not clutch”, “he’s hurting the development of the jays”, “CBS or Giannis? Who needs to go?” and so on...

I guess my question is, if all of our other players have some glaring weaknesses, why would your expectation for our 4th best player (who just so happens to be a big man) be to have some sort of impeccable game?
- LilRip

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #337 on: December 26, 2019, 05:06:32 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...
If Hayward is heading out my guess is Ainge would want Stephen Adams.

And my guess is that right now, Ainge would probably prefer Hayward over Stephen Adams.

We are now up to 135 minutes with the 3-Wings Of Death (Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon) on the floor and it continues to be dominant, with an ORtg of 129.6, DRtg of 103.7 and NetRtg of +25.9.

I just don't get why we would want to give up the ability to put that match-up nightmare on the floor for the sake of a marginal improvement (if any) at the 5.
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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #338 on: December 26, 2019, 05:13:43 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...
If Hayward is heading out my guess is Ainge would want Stephen Adams.

And my guess is that right now, Ainge would probably prefer Hayward over Stephen Adams.

We are now up to 135 minutes with the 3-Wings Of Death (Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon) on the floor and it continues to be dominant, with an ORtg of 129.6, DRtg of 103.7 and NetRtg of +25.9.

I just don't get why we would want to give up the ability to put that match-up nightmare on the floor for the sake of a marginal improvement (if any) at the 5.
I COMPLETELY agree with you 5m and have discussed at various times forcing other teams to try to match up with us and not the other way around, that I believe that is what Ainge and Stevens will try to do.

For that reason, I don't see a trade happening as Theis and Kanter give Stevens plenty of flexibility and upgrading from them would mean moving a core player, which I believe Ainge and Stevens is loathe to do.

All I am saying is that, if Danny feels he needs to move Hayward, for whatever reason, Ainge would prefer Adams over Myles Turner.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #339 on: December 26, 2019, 05:23:18 PM »

Offline footey

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I'd be shocked if Ainge got a big man by anything other than buy out market post NBA trade deadline.  I seriously doubt he would trade one of his $10 mm plus contract players for a legitimate big.

I like our center committee as is; especially when it is fully healthy.  I still haven't given up on Poirier making a contribution toward end of season, even if it is nothing more than a Scott Pollack role of the 08 championship team.

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #340 on: December 26, 2019, 05:24:06 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Agreed on the sentiment that we should try and contend now.

As unpopular as it is, I still believe in a Hayward for Drummond swap. Drummond does enough of what CBS needs in that he’s a capable enough passer, eats up the glass (which can be a weakness against teams with serious length), and is switchable on D from 3-5 (maybe even 2-5). Plus the bonuses of: interior defense, roll-man target, and solid screen setter. 

Hayward is great. Don’t get me wrong. This is just a case of salaries needing to match, and giving up talent to get talent. We’re not gonna get a quality big for cheap and buy out candidates are likely going to be inferior to Theis/Kanter.

Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond —> our 5 best players to start and finish the game.
Drummond is a stat compiler and a black hole in the middle. If he was ever brought here every Celtics fan would be picking apart his game and the fact we aren't as good with him in the lineup. And the fans who are obsessed with big men would quietly slink away.

A few things:
1. How is he a black hole? His usage is 3rd highest on his team and he doesn’t post up too much (ala Kanter) because his game is more based off of movement and putbacks. Plus, he’s developed more of a passing game. Wasnt Kemba more of a black hole with the Hornets?

2. We don’t know for a fact that we aren’t as good with him. He might actually help us out.

3. To be fair, every Celtics fan picks at all of our players’ games, except maybe Kemba who so far seems immune. From Tatum missing bunnies, Brown falling asleep on D, Smart taking an ill advised shot, Hayward not being aggressive enough, Kanter being burned on the perimeter, Theis getting outmuscled in the paint, etc. etc. I mean, we could trade Hayward for Giannis and I can imagine people would be complaining. For example:

“Teams are just daring him to shoot”, “he kills our spacing”, “he goes one on one too much”, “he’s not clutch”, “he’s hurting the development of the jays”, “CBS or Giannis? Who needs to go?” and so on...

I guess my question is, if all of our other players have some glaring weaknesses, why would your expectation for our 4th best player (who just so happens to be a big man) be to have some sort of impeccable game?


2. Sure, we might not be bad with Drummond.  In fact, we'd probably still be good.  We _might_ even be very good.   But here's the thing, right now, WITH HAYWARD, we already KNOW we are really, really good.   Our 3-wing lineups featuring Gordon, Jaylen & Jayson are killer.   We have a +25.9 NetRtg with those three on the floor.   The reason is that against pretty much every opposing lineup at least one of those three will have a match up advantage, being guarded by either a slow big or a small guard.  While defensively, they are able to handle almost everything thrown at them because of their mutual defensive versatility. 

Getting rid of the use of that matchup advantage just to get the marginal improvement of Drummond over Theis or Kanter at the 5?   That seems nuts.

Because trading Hayward for Drummond doesn't just mean swapping those two.  It means that you are starting Drummond over Theis ... and starting someone else in place of Hayward.   Smart?  Semi?   I.E. it means a change of _two_ of the starting positions and one would be a huge drop-off.  Because you will lose the huge advantage that we get with putting all three of GH, JB & JT on the floor.

Drummond is good.  But any improvement he brings over Theis/Kanter is simply not going to make up for that loss.
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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #341 on: December 26, 2019, 05:25:15 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...
If Hayward is heading out my guess is Ainge would want Stephen Adams.

And my guess is that right now, Ainge would probably prefer Hayward over Stephen Adams.

We are now up to 135 minutes with the 3-Wings Of Death (Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon) on the floor and it continues to be dominant, with an ORtg of 129.6, DRtg of 103.7 and NetRtg of +25.9.

I just don't get why we would want to give up the ability to put that match-up nightmare on the floor for the sake of a marginal improvement (if any) at the 5.
I COMPLETELY agree with you 5m and have discussed at various times forcing other teams to try to match up with us and not the other way around, that I believe that is what Ainge and Stevens will try to do.

For that reason, I don't see a trade happening as Theis and Kanter give Stevens plenty of flexibility and upgrading from them would mean moving a core player, which I believe Ainge and Stevens is loathe to do.

All I am saying is that, if Danny feels he needs to move Hayward, for whatever reason, Ainge would prefer Adams over Myles Turner.

Yep.  Agreed.
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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #342 on: December 26, 2019, 06:52:11 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Agreed on the sentiment that we should try and contend now.

As unpopular as it is, I still believe in a Hayward for Drummond swap. Drummond does enough of what CBS needs in that he’s a capable enough passer, eats up the glass (which can be a weakness against teams with serious length), and is switchable on D from 3-5 (maybe even 2-5). Plus the bonuses of: interior defense, roll-man target, and solid screen setter. 

Hayward is great. Don’t get me wrong. This is just a case of salaries needing to match, and giving up talent to get talent. We’re not gonna get a quality big for cheap and buy out candidates are likely going to be inferior to Theis/Kanter.

Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond —> our 5 best players to start and finish the game.
Drummond is a stat compiler and a black hole in the middle. If he was ever brought here every Celtics fan would be picking apart his game and the fact we aren't as good with him in the lineup. And the fans who are obsessed with big men would quietly slink away.

A few things:
1. How is he a black hole? His usage is 3rd highest on his team and he doesn’t post up too much (ala Kanter) because his game is more based off of movement and putbacks. Plus, he’s developed more of a passing game. Wasnt Kemba more of a black hole with the Hornets?

2. We don’t know for a fact that we aren’t as good with him. He might actually help us out.

3. To be fair, every Celtics fan picks at all of our players’ games, except maybe Kemba who so far seems immune. From Tatum missing bunnies, Brown falling asleep on D, Smart taking an ill advised shot, Hayward not being aggressive enough, Kanter being burned on the perimeter, Theis getting outmuscled in the paint, etc. etc. I mean, we could trade Hayward for Giannis and I can imagine people would be complaining. For example:

“Teams are just daring him to shoot”, “he kills our spacing”, “he goes one on one too much”, “he’s not clutch”, “he’s hurting the development of the jays”, “CBS or Giannis? Who needs to go?” and so on...

I guess my question is, if all of our other players have some glaring weaknesses, why would your expectation for our 4th best player (who just so happens to be a big man) be to have some sort of impeccable game?


2. Sure, we might not be bad with Drummond.  In fact, we'd probably still be good.  We _might_ even be very good.   But here's the thing, right now, WITH HAYWARD, we already KNOW we are really, really good.   Our 3-wing lineups featuring Gordon, Jaylen & Jayson are killer.   We have a +25.9 NetRtg with those three on the floor.   The reason is that against pretty much every opposing lineup at least one of those three will have a match up advantage, being guarded by either a slow big or a small guard.  While defensively, they are able to handle almost everything thrown at them because of their mutual defensive versatility. 

Getting rid of the use of that matchup advantage just to get the marginal improvement of Drummond over Theis or Kanter at the 5?   That seems nuts.

Because trading Hayward for Drummond doesn't just mean swapping those two.  It means that you are starting Drummond over Theis ... and starting someone else in place of Hayward.   Smart?  Semi?   I.E. it means a change of _two_ of the starting positions and one would be a huge drop-off.  Because you will lose the huge advantage that we get with putting all three of GH, JB & JT on the floor.

Drummond is good.  But any improvement he brings over Theis/Kanter is simply not going to make up for that loss.

Given that this is hypothetical, there’s no way to prove or disprove how much more Drummond can bring to the lineup using stats.

That said though, the reason you make this upgrade is because you’re competing against essentially 4-5 teams. Not the entire league. The teams we’ll need to match up with in this year plus maybe the next 1-2 years are the Lakers, Clippers, Sixers and Bucks, then eventually the Nets and Warriors. Maybe the Pacers but let’s not include them for the time being.

5 out of those 6 teams trump us in size without giving up too much speed/mobility. We’ve seen the Clips, Sixers and Bucks abuse us inside (and when the Laker game comes, I’d expect more of the same too). Now I know we won the Bucks game but they’ve become so much better since the first week of the season. We also lost a close one to the Clips but that was also Kawhi and PG13’s first game together without any practice to boot.

I have all the confidence in the world we’ll have a great record with our 3 wings. It’s the playoffs I’m more worried about and I don’t think we can beat any of the 4 “top” teams in a 7-game series. Can we make it a competitive series? Of course! Will we win? I’m not sure

Also, yes. Smart is who I’m thinking should get more minutes. The dude is legit 1st team all defense. And by moving Theis down, you also bolster the bench with a guy who can help other guys get shots.


- LilRip

Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #343 on: December 26, 2019, 07:37:37 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If HAyward was the huy headed out I think the C's would rather miles turner...
If Hayward is heading out my guess is Ainge would want Stephen Adams.

And my guess is that right now, Ainge would probably prefer Hayward over Stephen Adams.

We are now up to 135 minutes with the 3-Wings Of Death (Jaylen, Jayson & Gordon) on the floor and it continues to be dominant, with an ORtg of 129.6, DRtg of 103.7 and NetRtg of +25.9.

I just don't get why we would want to give up the ability to put that match-up nightmare on the floor for the sake of a marginal improvement (if any) at the 5.
I COMPLETELY agree with you 5m and have discussed at various times forcing other teams to try to match up with us and not the other way around, that I believe that is what Ainge and Stevens will try to do.

For that reason, I don't see a trade happening as Theis and Kanter give Stevens plenty of flexibility and upgrading from them would mean moving a core player, which I believe Ainge and Stevens is loathe to do.

All I am saying is that, if Danny feels he needs to move Hayward, for whatever reason, Ainge would prefer Adams over Myles Turner.

Yep.  Agreed.
Count me in on this too. The lineups we can throw out with the three wings AND Kemba are insanely hard to guard.

From what I observe the best teams always seem to be the ones pushing the mismatch, not the other way around, as you say.
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Re: Big Man Options
« Reply #344 on: December 26, 2019, 07:44:04 PM »

Offline bopna

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I'm more of letting things play out for now and let the other teams follow our lead.

The 3 headed wing approach is something only our team can boast of and besides, Theis is doing a grand job with Kanter in holding the Fort of our front line.

It will be a great barometer if we play the Bucks and Sixers plus Fakers with our line up complete.. If these teams beat us up badly then I'd think about reconsidering my stance but for now.. No team has blown us out even with all the injuries that this team has sustained and yes, the first game does not count because its the first game of the season with every statistical anomaly happening.