Woj: Jrue to Celtics

[W8ting2McHale]

Interesting that Lowe says the Celtics love Kornet as a regular season rotation player who can spell Al when needed.

Well that is a very low bar. I can do that at age 62 and I haven’t had coffee yet.

A. L. Al.

I’ll see myself out. Coffee’s almost ready.

[Vermont Green]

Am I crazy to think Jrue to Boston might be a little bigger than Lillard to Bucks? Lillard is the better player for sure, but Jrue in Boston feels like a much better fit, and also Jrue can at least play some defense while Lillard is a scoring PG with a high usage rate (Giannis also has a high usage rate)

We'll see.

It looks like you aren't the only one that feels that way:

I saw this last night on NBC Sports Boston where they referenced the following from Zach Lowe:

"I got texts from a couple of non-partisan front office executives ... that were in the vein of, 'This is what I worried about for the Bucks when they made the Lillard trade: that Boston would come in and get Jrue Holiday, and that the Bucks ... may have inadvertently helped their biggest rival more than they realized they did -- and maybe more than they helped themselves,'" Lowe said Monday on "The Lowe Post" podcast.

"I heard from a couple of front office executives from good Eastern Conference teams, and the texts that I received in the immediate wake of the trade were two and three words long, to the tone of, 'Well f--- us,' or 'Oof, this sucks.'"

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/nba/boston-celtics/celtics-fans-will-love-nba-execs-reactions-jrue-holiday-trade/556803/

Sweet! I'll now be applying to become a national media NBA analyst 

Lillard and Giannis is a better 1-2 punch than anything the Celtics have.  The issue with MIL is going to be durability, Lillard, Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, all have issues.  The Celtics have their own durability issues with Porzingis and Horford, of course.  As a team though, I felt that the Celtics were ahead of the Bucks before the trades and are still ahead of the Bucks after.  Jrue allows us to stay ahead of them.  I think this is what the other GMs are saying.  As a team, they fear the Celtics more than the Bucks.

Holiday is a great addition to the Celtics, it is definitely "big", but we also gave up a lot.  I would say that MIL is still a little better off for it than the Celtics right now.  Their incremental improvement from the trade is more than our incremental improvement from the trade.  Lillard is a great player, top 10.  The issue is that we lost RWill.  Right now, his replacement is Wenyen Gabriel.  The Celtics may not be done though.  If we are able to bring in a solid big, then the Celtics are even better.

[Donoghus]

https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1709974335119569355

The Truth and the Jruth

[GetLucky]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

[Neurotic Guy]

https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1709974335119569355

The Truth and the Jruth

Pierce's involvement with the C's is inspirational.  I realize he's on the payroll, but he's chosen to stay a Celtic in his post-playing career.  I think it was imperative that he won a championship - I think that embeds a lifelong connection in a way that doesn't happen without that.  Seeing that role-modeling is great for JT and JB - to see a great player, a HOFer, who grew up across the country, decided to be a lifelong Celtic is meaningful.  Once the Jays win a championship it will connect them to Celtics history.

[Roy H.]

https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1709974335119569355

The Truth and the Jruth

Pierce's involvement with the C's is inspirational.  I realize he's on the payroll, but he's chosen to stay a Celtic in his post-playing career.  I think it was imperative that he won a championship - I think that embeds a lifelong connection in a way that doesn't happen without that.  Seeing that role-modeling is great for JT and JB - to see a great player, a HOFer, who grew up across the country, decided to be a lifelong Celtic is meaningful.  Once the Jays win a championship it will connect them to Celtics history.

I read that Joe is actively encouraging alumni to stop by the facility.  I think that's a cool thing.  In recent days it's been Eddie House, Leon Powe, and Satch Sanders.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

It is tricky to look at this.  In a vacuum, I say maybe Smart ---> Holiday is a bigger upgrade than Holiday ---> Lillard.  But if you are going to line up Smart and Holiday, you still have to account for Brogdon and RWill, and also Grayson Allen.  I think for the Celtics, it might look like this:

Smart   --->   Holiday
Brogdon --->  Pritchard
R. Will   --->  Porzingis
Grant    --->  ??? (Brissett)

For MIL:

Holiday  --->   Lillard
Allen     --->   ??? (Beasley?)

I know that Grant has no direct connection to this trade but he is in the equation also is you are looking at overall changes to the roster of the two teams.  There are other minor changes on both teams but I see these as the main ones.  Jrue Holiday is a nice player to add to replace Smart.  He is an upgrade, really the perfect guy to assume that role.  And I really like Porzingis, I think he is a great addition, the prototypical scoring big we have been looking for.

But the cost of adding Holiday is losing Brogdon and RWill.  It is hard to one to one these comings and goings.  But if Holiday replaces Smart (I think that is fair, Holiday will take Smart's spot in the starting line up), and Porzingis replaces RWill (also fair even though 2 different trades), I see Pritchard as replacing Brogdon's minutes and Brissett replacing Grant's minutes.

Net - Net, I see the Celtics as still ahead of the Bucks.

[theswitch]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

It is tricky to look at this.  In a vacuum, I say maybe Smart ---> Holiday is a bigger upgrade than Holiday ---> Lillard.  But if you are going to line up Smart and Holiday, you still have to account for Brogdon and RWill, and also Grayson Allen.  I think for the Celtics, it might look like this:

Smart   --->   Holiday
Brogdon --->  Pritchard
R. Will   --->  Porzingis
Grant    --->  (Brissett)

For MIL:

Holiday  --->   Lillard
Allen     --->    (Beasley?)

I know that Grant has no direct connection to this trade but he is in the equation also is you are looking at overall changes to the roster of the two teams.  There are other minor changes on both teams but I see these as the main ones.  Jrue Holiday is a nice player to add to replace Smart.  He is an upgrade, really the perfect guy to assume that role.  And I really like Porzingis, I think he is a great addition, the prototypical scoring big we have been looking for.

But the cost of adding Holiday is losing Brogdon and RWill.  It is hard to one to one these comings and goings.  But if Holiday replaces Smart (I think that is fair, Holiday will take Smart's spot in the starting line up), and Porzingis replaces RWill (also fair even though 2 different trades), I see Pritchard as replacing Brogdon's minutes and Brissett replacing Grant's minutes.

Net - Net, I see the Celtics as still ahead of the Bucks.

You also can't count Grant without counting Jevon Carter. 81 games played, started half of them playing 22 minutes a game. Played all four playoff games for 12 minutes a game. Losing Carter is equivalent to us losing Grant.

[Roy H.]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

It is tricky to look at this.  In a vacuum, I say maybe Smart ---> Holiday is a bigger upgrade than Holiday ---> Lillard.  But if you are going to line up Smart and Holiday, you still have to account for Brogdon and RWill, and also Grayson Allen.  I think for the Celtics, it might look like this:

Smart   --->   Holiday
Brogdon --->  Pritchard
R. Will   --->  Porzingis
Grant    --->  (Brissett)

For MIL:

Holiday  --->   Lillard
Allen     --->    (Beasley?)

I know that Grant has no direct connection to this trade but he is in the equation also is you are looking at overall changes to the roster of the two teams.  There are other minor changes on both teams but I see these as the main ones.  Jrue Holiday is a nice player to add to replace Smart.  He is an upgrade, really the perfect guy to assume that role.  And I really like Porzingis, I think he is a great addition, the prototypical scoring big we have been looking for.

But the cost of adding Holiday is losing Brogdon and RWill.  It is hard to one to one these comings and goings.  But if Holiday replaces Smart (I think that is fair, Holiday will take Smart's spot in the starting line up), and Porzingis replaces RWill (also fair even though 2 different trades), I see Pritchard as replacing Brogdon's minutes and Brissett replacing Grant's minutes.

Net - Net, I see the Celtics as still ahead of the Bucks.

You also can't count Grant without counting Jevon Carter. 81 games played, started half of them playing 22 minutes a game. Played all four playoff games for 12 minutes a game. Losing Carter is equivalent to us losing Grant.

They also added Cameron Payne for whatever he's worth.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

It is tricky to look at this.  In a vacuum, I say maybe Smart ---> Holiday is a bigger upgrade than Holiday ---> Lillard.  But if you are going to line up Smart and Holiday, you still have to account for Brogdon and RWill, and also Grayson Allen.  I think for the Celtics, it might look like this:

Smart   --->   Holiday
Brogdon --->  Pritchard
R. Will   --->  Porzingis
Grant    --->  ??? (Brissett)

For MIL:

Holiday  --->   Lillard
Allen     --->   ??? (Beasley?)

I know that Grant has no direct connection to this trade but he is in the equation also is you are looking at overall changes to the roster of the two teams.  There are other minor changes on both teams but I see these as the main ones.  Jrue Holiday is a nice player to add to replace Smart.  He is an upgrade, really the perfect guy to assume that role.  And I really like Porzingis, I think he is a great addition, the prototypical scoring big we have been looking for.

But the cost of adding Holiday is losing Brogdon and RWill.  It is hard to one to one these comings and goings.  But if Holiday replaces Smart (I think that is fair, Holiday will take Smart's spot in the starting line up), and Porzingis replaces RWill (also fair even though 2 different trades), I see Pritchard as replacing Brogdon's minutes and Brissett replacing Grant's minutes.

Net - Net, I see the Celtics as still ahead of the Bucks.

You also can't count Grant without counting Jevon Carter. 81 games played, started half of them playing 22 minutes a game. Played all four playoff games for 12 minutes a game. Losing Carter is equivalent to us losing Grant.

They also added Cameron Payne for whatever he's worth.

I had to stop somewhere.  Payne replacing Carter probably is a wash, and not all that important even if it isn't, but this doesn't change my conclusion that the Celtics were ahead of the Bucks before the Lillard and Holiday trades and in my view are still ahead of them after the trades.  I would just be careful to assume that the Holiday trade is better for us than the Lillard trade is for them.  I am not sure how even to quantify that but it is not as simple as Holiday for Smart.

Even forgetting the picks, just looking at what each team gave up in terms of rotation players:

Brogdon + Williams   for   Holiday
Holiday  +  Allen       for    Lillard

I am not sure you can look at that and say that we won our trade by more than MIL won their trade.  Maybe, it is just hard to know.  Lillard is clearly the best player in the deals, so that is an old adage about winning trades.  Holiday may turn out to be more durable.  I am really happy to have Holiday on the Celtics but if I was a Bucks fan, I would be really happy about Lillard too.

[Roy H.]

Yeah, Smart to Jrue is a much bigger upgrade than Jrue to Dame.

It is tricky to look at this.  In a vacuum, I say maybe Smart ---> Holiday is a bigger upgrade than Holiday ---> Lillard.  But if you are going to line up Smart and Holiday, you still have to account for Brogdon and RWill, and also Grayson Allen.  I think for the Celtics, it might look like this:

Smart   --->   Holiday
Brogdon --->  Pritchard
R. Will   --->  Porzingis
Grant    --->  (Brissett)

For MIL:

Holiday  --->   Lillard
Allen     --->    (Beasley?)

I know that Grant has no direct connection to this trade but he is in the equation also is you are looking at overall changes to the roster of the two teams.  There are other minor changes on both teams but I see these as the main ones.  Jrue Holiday is a nice player to add to replace Smart.  He is an upgrade, really the perfect guy to assume that role.  And I really like Porzingis, I think he is a great addition, the prototypical scoring big we have been looking for.

But the cost of adding Holiday is losing Brogdon and RWill.  It is hard to one to one these comings and goings.  But if Holiday replaces Smart (I think that is fair, Holiday will take Smart's spot in the starting line up), and Porzingis replaces RWill (also fair even though 2 different trades), I see Pritchard as replacing Brogdon's minutes and Brissett replacing Grant's minutes.

Net - Net, I see the Celtics as still ahead of the Bucks.

You also can't count Grant without counting Jevon Carter. 81 games played, started half of them playing 22 minutes a game. Played all four playoff games for 12 minutes a game. Losing Carter is equivalent to us losing Grant.

They also added Cameron Payne for whatever he's worth.

I had to stop somewhere.  Payne replacing Carter probably is a wash, and not all that important even if it isn't, but this doesn't change my conclusion that the Celtics were ahead of the Bucks before the Lillard and Holiday trades and in my view are still ahead of them after the trades.  I would just be careful to assume that the Holiday trade is better for us than the Lillard trade is for them.  I am not sure how even to quantify that but it is not as simple as Holiday for Smart.

Even forgetting the picks, just looking at what each team gave up in terms of rotation players:

Brogdon + Williams   for   Holiday
Holiday  +  Allen       for    Lillard

I am not sure you can look at that and say that we won our trade by more than MIL won their trade.  Maybe, it is just hard to know.  Lillard is clearly the best player in the deals, so that is an old adage about winning trades.  Holiday may turn out to be more durable.  I am really happy to have Holiday on the Celtics but if I was a Bucks fan, I would be really happy about Lillard too.

I think from my perspective, it's not just about how talented the player is, it's about what they add, and what's subtracted by the players lost.

Milwaukee added a clutch offensive player who changes how they have to be guarded.  They lost a lot of defense and grit, and probably a bit of durability as well.

Boston added an elite defender, a leader, and presumably some durability.  They lost a bit of shooting, and obviously depth.

I think that Jrue fills more holes for us than Lillard is, even though Lillard is the better player.

[gouki88]

I was listening to JJ Redick talking with the guys from the Dunker Spot podcast, and their takes on what Jrue will bring to our defence. Found it pretty interesting.

After losing Smart, they were a bit curious to see how we went with our switch-heavy scheme. They were unsure whether we'd be able to adapt to Porzingis' drop defence strength without the advantage we had with our perimeter defence. However, now we have Holiday, who is at worst Smart's equal on perimeter defence (definitely his superior last season).

They talk about how we now have arguably the two best guard defenders in the entire NBA in Holiday & White. They do it differently, but they think that they are at worst both top 5 (alongside Smart & Caruso). One thing they bring up is the way that they navigate screens better than anyone else in the league, and the impact this will have on the group.

One of them (I'm not familiar with their names) said that this ought to enable Porzingis to really thrive in his drop spot, as we will have premier defenders navigating the screen at all times. He said he expected this to bring a serious uptick in Porzingis' defence, and projected a Brook Lopez type role for him.

They then talked about how much fun we can have with different lineups now. The small lineup of Holiday-White-Brown-Tatum-Horford, with switches everywhere. The dual big lineup with White off the bench. It goes on.

Really exciting defensive group.

[Moranis]

Holiday is not exactly a picture of health. He has missed 15 games in each of the last 2 seasons and hasn't missed less than 10 since 2018.  He is in in his mid-30's.  Smart played only 2 less games over the past 2, so I'm not sure we really got more durable. I love the talent upgrade, but there is a real health concern with Jrue, which isnpart of why I think the Bucks were willing to make the trade.

[Big333223]

https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1709974335119569355

The Truth and the Jruth

Pierce's involvement with the C's is inspirational.  I realize he's on the payroll, but he's chosen to stay a Celtic in his post-playing career.  I think it was imperative that he won a championship - I think that embeds a lifelong connection in a way that doesn't happen without that.  Seeing that role-modeling is great for JT and JB - to see a great player, a HOFer, who grew up across the country, decided to be a lifelong Celtic is meaningful.  Once the Jays win a championship it will connect them to Celtics history.

I read that Joe is actively encouraging alumni to stop by the facility.  I think that's a cool thing.  In recent days it's been Eddie House, Leon Powe, and Satch Sanders.

Gotta get Bird in the building somehow.

[CelticSooner]

Holiday is not exactly a picture of health. He has missed 15 games in each of the last 2 seasons and hasn't missed less than 10 since 2018.  He is in in his mid-30's.  Smart played only 2 less games over the past 2, so I'm not sure we really got more durable. I love the talent upgrade, but there is a real health concern with Jrue, which isnpart of why I think the Bucks were willing to make the trade.

How of those are injury related and just Milwaukee resting him? I don’t think he’s been much of a concern missing games. He joined the C’s now though so that automatically changes. Hospital C’s FTW