Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed

[Bankshot]

Resigning Allen as a sixth man, a role he may never be mentally capable of playing.

Leaving Perkins all but alone at the 5 with the horrid signing of O'Blount. Right now, this one is in a dead heat with the Posey penny-pinching as Danny's biggest mistake.

Making no moves to address the lack of outside shooting on the bench.

Taking Giddens ahead of Walker.

Agreed except on Giddens and Walker.  I could care less who was taken first, but wasn't Walker an injury risk?  Makes sense that Ainge knew Walker might still be available in the 2nd round.  Giddens appears to be the better all around player from what I've seen so far anyway. Just my opinion, of course.

[dark_lord]

Mark my words, Tony Allen WILL come up big in the playoffs for us.   

in playoff basketball, where every possession counts, you must value the basketball, and play with a high level of intelligence.......these are all weaknesses of TA.  what makes you think he WILL come up big in the playoffs?  he may have a game or two of great play, but in typical tony fashion, he wont be consistent and doc will be forced to bench him. 

[CoachBo]

Mark my words, Tony Allen WILL come up big in the playoffs for us.   

in playoff basketball, where every possession counts, you must value the basketball, and play with a high level of intelligence.......these are all weaknesses of TA.  what makes you think he WILL come up big in the playoffs?  he may have a game or two of great play, but in typical tony fashion, he wont be consistent and doc will be forced to bench him. 

Good points one and all.

Tony simply has trouble stringing together quality possessions at either end of the floor. You can get a handful - a couple of slashing drives to the bucket, a stop or two - but the next two or three you get are bull-like brick-tosses at the rim, falling for an up-fake, etc. The mistakes tend to get blurred when you're beating the dog out of the NBA cellar dwellers, but they become magnified against the really good teams, like LA, where Tony was wildly inconsistent all night.

The problem with Tony - and with Eddie House - is that they are one-trick ponies being asked to become the sixth and seventh men on a title contender. If Tony's role was defensive stopper and House's purely as a long-distance shooter at the eighth through 10th slots on the bench, both would be better fits for this team. Neither has a game well-rounded enough to be the first or second man off the bench for the defending champs.

Neither is up to their spots in the rotation, IMHO. But if I had to turn to one in the playoffs, it would be House. He's less likely to make the catastrophic mistake that beats you.

[EJPLAYA]

It seems y'all (or most y'all) want to take team deficiencies and reduce/simplify them to player deficiencies.  But this is a team game and it's not that simple.  In the team game, only holistic solutions solve team-wide problems.  So, as is typically the case, a poster has framed a team deficiency (2nd team inefficiency on offense) as a player deficiency (TA has not developed in 4 years), missing the real issue: why is the 2nd team so [dang]ed inconsistent?  It's a simple answer really, and we all know it: they don't have a point guard.  And point guard is the most important position when it comes to attaining offensive consistency.  Last year, we overcame this inconsistency via veteran leadership at other positions (Posey and PJ Brown, with a little Cassell thrown in there).  This season, we don't have the luxury.  Our two options are simple: build up the point guard position from within (either play Pruitt, with Ed at 2 and TA at 3; or use Rondo as 1st team/2nd team bridge and up his minutes to around 36 or so per night) or increase our veteran leadership from without (signing a PJ Brown-type, or swinging a trade).

Now, admittedly, TA has had some poor games recently, mainly because of high turnovers, but this is not because he hasn't developed in 4 years, it's that, once again, he is being asked by Doc to play out of position.  The thing is, Eddie House, while bringing veteran leadership, great spirit, and sometimes great shooting, can't play point guard at all.  He doesn't dribble well, initiate the offense well, or have much of a clue about calling the right play and good-to-mediocre defensive teams can absolutely shut down our 2nd team offense by applying just a modicum of ball pressure.  That's why House was benched in the playoffs in favor of Cassell and that's why a non-point guard, sometime shaky handle TA is playing defacto point guard right now on our inconsistent 2nd team.  It's because, like it or not, on out of position TA is superior to House at point guard.  This is a big problem and it won't be magically resolved by ridding the team of TA; on the contrary, it'll just make matters worse.  TA is doing his best playing out of position.  When he makes a ton of turnovers, the thought in everyone's minds shouldn't be, "why hasn't TA improved in 4 years," but instead, "why don't we have a real point guard on the second team?" 

Going forward, we're going to either need to see what Pruitt can give us, see if Rondo can take on more minutes and still be effective with the 2nd team, or see if we can add a quality veteran at the backup center position.  All these threads bashing TA--and there's been a lot in the last 2 weeks--keep misframing the issue.  In reality, we lack suitable point guard play and/or veteran leadership on the 2nd team and resolving that issue should be both the focus of the Cs heading forward and also the focus of the message board community.  I know a lot of lot of you didn't care for the TA signing (or the offseason in general), but heaping all the blame on one guy is missing the point and blurring the issue, and it only leads to terrible threads and a lack of communication.

That's all great and everything and overall pretty true except for one glaring problem. TA has NOT been playing the point. Eddie has been doing that. When TA gets the ball he gives it to Eddie to bring up the ball. 99% of the time this year TA has not played point but the 2-3. The mistakes and turnovers he is making are in the flow of the offense when it gets to him. It always does and stops because he will not pass the ball into the post from the wing position. Instead he tries to drive whether or not the lane is open, hence all the charges and turnovers and wild shots. The guy in the basketball world is a moron. He has absolutely no idea how to play smart ball and unless we were playing in a 3-3 contest I wouldn't want the guy on my team. I have lost all patience with the guy and my thoughts the past couple years have proven correct. He is as good as he will ever be and as his athleticism drops he will quickly be useless to us. No way that Giddens or Walker can be much worse.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

It seems y'all (or most y'all) want to take team deficiencies and reduce/simplify them to player deficiencies.  But this is a team game and it's not that simple.  In the team game, only holistic solutions solve team-wide problems.  So, as is typically the case, a poster has framed a team deficiency (2nd team inefficiency on offense) as a player deficiency (TA has not developed in 4 years), missing the real issue: why is the 2nd team so [dang]ed inconsistent?  It's a simple answer really, and we all know it: they don't have a point guard.  And point guard is the most important position when it comes to attaining offensive consistency.  Last year, we overcame this inconsistency via veteran leadership at other positions (Posey and PJ Brown, with a little Cassell thrown in there).  This season, we don't have the luxury.  Our two options are simple: build up the point guard position from within (either play Pruitt, with Ed at 2 and TA at 3; or use Rondo as 1st team/2nd team bridge and up his minutes to around 36 or so per night) or increase our veteran leadership from without (signing a PJ Brown-type, or swinging a trade).

Now, admittedly, TA has had some poor games recently, mainly because of high turnovers, but this is not because he hasn't developed in 4 years, it's that, once again, he is being asked by Doc to play out of position.  The thing is, Eddie House, while bringing veteran leadership, great spirit, and sometimes great shooting, can't play point guard at all.  He doesn't dribble well, initiate the offense well, or have much of a clue about calling the right play and good-to-mediocre defensive teams can absolutely shut down our 2nd team offense by applying just a modicum of ball pressure.  That's why House was benched in the playoffs in favor of Cassell and that's why a non-point guard, sometime shaky handle TA is playing defacto point guard right now on our inconsistent 2nd team.  It's because, like it or not, on out of position TA is superior to House at point guard.  This is a big problem and it won't be magically resolved by ridding the team of TA; on the contrary, it'll just make matters worse.  TA is doing his best playing out of position.  When he makes a ton of turnovers, the thought in everyone's minds shouldn't be, "why hasn't TA improved in 4 years," but instead, "why don't we have a real point guard on the second team?" 

Going forward, we're going to either need to see what Pruitt can give us, see if Rondo can take on more minutes and still be effective with the 2nd team, or see if we can add a quality veteran at the backup center position.  All these threads bashing TA--and there's been a lot in the last 2 weeks--keep misframing the issue.  In reality, we lack suitable point guard play and/or veteran leadership on the 2nd team and resolving that issue should be both the focus of the Cs heading forward and also the focus of the message board community.  I know a lot of lot of you didn't care for the TA signing (or the offseason in general), but heaping all the blame on one guy is missing the point and blurring the issue, and it only leads to terrible threads and a lack of communication.

That's all great and everything and overall pretty true except for one glaring problem. TA has NOT been playing the point. Eddie has been doing that. When TA gets the ball he gives it to Eddie to bring up the ball. 99% of the time this year TA has not played point but the 2-3. The mistakes and turnovers he is making are in the flow of the offense when it gets to him. It always does and stops because he will not pass the ball into the post from the wing position. Instead he tries to drive whether or not the lane is open, hence all the charges and turnovers and wild shots. The guy in the basketball world is a moron. He has absolutely no idea how to play smart ball and unless we were playing in a 3-3 contest I wouldn't want the guy on my team. I have lost all patience with the guy and my thoughts the past couple years have proven correct. He is as good as he will ever be and as his athleticism drops he will quickly be useless to us. No way that Giddens or Walker can be much worse.

TA and House share 'bringing up the ball' duties probably 50/50, sometimes 70/30 if the other team makes it a priority to pressure House.  But the real point guard responsibilities, like running sets and creating off-the-dribble, fall mainly (i.e., over half the time) to TA, unless you count the Eddie House passing the ball 30 feet from the basket and running to the corner as an example of 'initiating the offense.'  You go on to say the ball gets to TA 'in the flow of the offense' and then sticks.  Well, first off, there is no flow to the 2nd unit.  The ball matriculates awkwardly to TA because there is no flow to the offense and, when it does, TA, under Doc's orders, attempts to create something because of that lack of flow.  That has not been working lately, as we all know.  But this is by design, out of necessity because we don't have competent point guard play. I mean, if this wasn't by design, Doc would pull TA after the first turnover just like he did in the past.  TA feeds to post and moves the ball pretty well when he's just another cog in a Rondo-led offense; but when he's asked to create because of bad point guard play it's another question.  His struggles come from being asked to play out of position and he's being asked to play out of position because the 2nd team lacks a point guard.  This is the issue, not his inability to play a position he's not well skilled at like point guard.

People act like the first 15 games of the season didn't happen or that TA didn't suffer a sprained ankle or that TA hasn't been asked to play an increasingly more point guard-like role on the 2nd team as the season has progressed.  Well, let me remind everyone: TA played very well the 1st 15 games of this season.  And, yes, he did sprain an ankle and, perhaps not so coincidentally, he's struggled with consistency since his return; a return which, marked by the overall struggle of the 2nd unit, has coincided with Doc asking TA to take on even more responsibility out there.  If you look at everything as a whole, there's a lot more to the struggles of TA and the 2nd unit than reductive, simplistic statements like "TA is a basketball moron" or "TA still hasn't developed after 4 years."  It's not that simple....

 

[EJPLAYA]

It seems y'all (or most y'all) want to take team deficiencies and reduce/simplify them to player deficiencies.  But this is a team game and it's not that simple.  In the team game, only holistic solutions solve team-wide problems.  So, as is typically the case, a poster has framed a team deficiency (2nd team inefficiency on offense) as a player deficiency (TA has not developed in 4 years), missing the real issue: why is the 2nd team so [dang]ed inconsistent?  It's a simple answer really, and we all know it: they don't have a point guard.  And point guard is the most important position when it comes to attaining offensive consistency.  Last year, we overcame this inconsistency via veteran leadership at other positions (Posey and PJ Brown, with a little Cassell thrown in there).  This season, we don't have the luxury.  Our two options are simple: build up the point guard position from within (either play Pruitt, with Ed at 2 and TA at 3; or use Rondo as 1st team/2nd team bridge and up his minutes to around 36 or so per night) or increase our veteran leadership from without (signing a PJ Brown-type, or swinging a trade).

Now, admittedly, TA has had some poor games recently, mainly because of high turnovers, but this is not because he hasn't developed in 4 years, it's that, once again, he is being asked by Doc to play out of position.  The thing is, Eddie House, while bringing veteran leadership, great spirit, and sometimes great shooting, can't play point guard at all.  He doesn't dribble well, initiate the offense well, or have much of a clue about calling the right play and good-to-mediocre defensive teams can absolutely shut down our 2nd team offense by applying just a modicum of ball pressure.  That's why House was benched in the playoffs in favor of Cassell and that's why a non-point guard, sometime shaky handle TA is playing defacto point guard right now on our inconsistent 2nd team.  It's because, like it or not, on out of position TA is superior to House at point guard.  This is a big problem and it won't be magically resolved by ridding the team of TA; on the contrary, it'll just make matters worse.  TA is doing his best playing out of position.  When he makes a ton of turnovers, the thought in everyone's minds shouldn't be, "why hasn't TA improved in 4 years," but instead, "why don't we have a real point guard on the second team?" 

Going forward, we're going to either need to see what Pruitt can give us, see if Rondo can take on more minutes and still be effective with the 2nd team, or see if we can add a quality veteran at the backup center position.  All these threads bashing TA--and there's been a lot in the last 2 weeks--keep misframing the issue.  In reality, we lack suitable point guard play and/or veteran leadership on the 2nd team and resolving that issue should be both the focus of the Cs heading forward and also the focus of the message board community.  I know a lot of lot of you didn't care for the TA signing (or the offseason in general), but heaping all the blame on one guy is missing the point and blurring the issue, and it only leads to terrible threads and a lack of communication.

That's all great and everything and overall pretty true except for one glaring problem. TA has NOT been playing the point. Eddie has been doing that. When TA gets the ball he gives it to Eddie to bring up the ball. 99% of the time this year TA has not played point but the 2-3. The mistakes and turnovers he is making are in the flow of the offense when it gets to him. It always does and stops because he will not pass the ball into the post from the wing position. Instead he tries to drive whether or not the lane is open, hence all the charges and turnovers and wild shots. The guy in the basketball world is a moron. He has absolutely no idea how to play smart ball and unless we were playing in a 3-3 contest I wouldn't want the guy on my team. I have lost all patience with the guy and my thoughts the past couple years have proven correct. He is as good as he will ever be and as his athleticism drops he will quickly be useless to us. No way that Giddens or Walker can be much worse.

TA and House share 'bringing up the ball' duties probably 50/50, sometimes 70/30 if the other team makes it a priority to pressure House.  But the real point guard responsibilities, like running sets and creating off-the-dribble, fall mainly (i.e., over half the time) to TA, unless you count the Eddie House passing the ball 30 feet from the basket and running to the corner as an example of 'initiating the offense.'  You go on to say the ball gets to TA 'in the flow of the offense' and then sticks.  Well, first off, there is no flow to the 2nd unit.  The ball matriculates awkwardly to TA because there is no flow to the offense and, when it does, TA, under Doc's orders, attempts to create something because of that lack of flow.  That has not been working lately, as we all know.  But this is by design, out of necessity because we don't have competent point guard play. I mean, if this wasn't by design, Doc would pull TA after the first turnover just like he did in the past.  TA feeds to post and moves the ball pretty well when he's just another cog in a Rondo-led offense; but when he's asked to create because of bad point guard play it's another question.  His struggles come from being asked to play out of position and he's being asked to play out of position because the 2nd team lacks a point guard.  This is the issue, not his inability to play a position he's not well skilled at like point guard.

People act like the first 15 games of the season didn't happen or that TA didn't suffer a sprained ankle or that TA hasn't been asked to play an increasingly more point guard-like role on the 2nd team as the season has progressed.  Well, let me remind everyone: TA played very well the 1st 15 games of this season.  And, yes, he did sprain an ankle and, perhaps not so coincidentally, he's struggled with consistency since his return; a return which, marked by the overall struggle of the 2nd unit, has coincided with Doc asking TA to take on even more responsibility out there.  If you look at everything as a whole, there's a lot more to the struggles of TA and the 2nd unit than reductive, simplistic statements like "TA is a basketball moron" or "TA still hasn't developed after 4 years."  It's not that simple....

 

Writing a novel repeating your first post doesn't make that correct. I have League Pass and have watched every minute of every game this year and TA is NOT playing PG. Using your logic PP and Ray are playing PG on the starting unit because Rondo passes them the ball first the majority of the time. House is bringing the ball up the floor and initiating the offense. TA is running to the wing just like the 2 usually does. When they stop the dribbler House kicks it to TA. That doesn't make him the PG anymore than Ray or Paul. The few games that Gabe has been in there HE even runs the point before TA.

As far as him doing a great job sending the ball into the post with Rondo as the PG, but not on the second unit, that just confirms my comments. Powe goes to the block and wants to receive the inbound pass. TA just won't give it to him. He thinks that the correct play always is to lower his head and charge in. There is no question House has a harder time getting it up the floor as deep as Rondo does, but the biggest reason the 2nd unit has no flow is that TA holds the ball and chokes the flow off.

Doc is asking TA to play the position that he should be, the 2 and sometimes 3. TA has absolutely NO ability to play the point and Doc knows that. You are using your argument based on last years and the year before attempt to make him a PG. It is just not happening this year.

The issue is very clear. TA is a dumb player out there on the floor and is better suited for pickup basketball than he is for NBA play where it requires a guy to think. His high degree of athleticism has allowed him to get by, but it is slipping.

[hardlyyardley]

It all boils down to "basketball IQ" and he is lacking in this area

[CoachBo]

It seems y'all (or most y'all) want to take team deficiencies and reduce/simplify them to player deficiencies.  But this is a team game and it's not that simple.  In the team game, only holistic solutions solve team-wide problems.  So, as is typically the case, a poster has framed a team deficiency (2nd team inefficiency on offense) as a player deficiency (TA has not developed in 4 years), missing the real issue: why is the 2nd team so [dang]ed inconsistent?  It's a simple answer really, and we all know it: they don't have a point guard.  And point guard is the most important position when it comes to attaining offensive consistency.  Last year, we overcame this inconsistency via veteran leadership at other positions (Posey and PJ Brown, with a little Cassell thrown in there).  This season, we don't have the luxury.  Our two options are simple: build up the point guard position from within (either play Pruitt, with Ed at 2 and TA at 3; or use Rondo as 1st team/2nd team bridge and up his minutes to around 36 or so per night) or increase our veteran leadership from without (signing a PJ Brown-type, or swinging a trade).

Now, admittedly, TA has had some poor games recently, mainly because of high turnovers, but this is not because he hasn't developed in 4 years, it's that, once again, he is being asked by Doc to play out of position.  The thing is, Eddie House, while bringing veteran leadership, great spirit, and sometimes great shooting, can't play point guard at all.  He doesn't dribble well, initiate the offense well, or have much of a clue about calling the right play and good-to-mediocre defensive teams can absolutely shut down our 2nd team offense by applying just a modicum of ball pressure.  That's why House was benched in the playoffs in favor of Cassell and that's why a non-point guard, sometime shaky handle TA is playing defacto point guard right now on our inconsistent 2nd team.  It's because, like it or not, on out of position TA is superior to House at point guard.  This is a big problem and it won't be magically resolved by ridding the team of TA; on the contrary, it'll just make matters worse.  TA is doing his best playing out of position.  When he makes a ton of turnovers, the thought in everyone's minds shouldn't be, "why hasn't TA improved in 4 years," but instead, "why don't we have a real point guard on the second team?" 

Going forward, we're going to either need to see what Pruitt can give us, see if Rondo can take on more minutes and still be effective with the 2nd team, or see if we can add a quality veteran at the backup center position.  All these threads bashing TA--and there's been a lot in the last 2 weeks--keep misframing the issue.  In reality, we lack suitable point guard play and/or veteran leadership on the 2nd team and resolving that issue should be both the focus of the Cs heading forward and also the focus of the message board community.  I know a lot of lot of you didn't care for the TA signing (or the offseason in general), but heaping all the blame on one guy is missing the point and blurring the issue, and it only leads to terrible threads and a lack of communication.

That's all great and everything and overall pretty true except for one glaring problem. TA has NOT been playing the point. Eddie has been doing that. When TA gets the ball he gives it to Eddie to bring up the ball. 99% of the time this year TA has not played point but the 2-3. The mistakes and turnovers he is making are in the flow of the offense when it gets to him. It always does and stops because he will not pass the ball into the post from the wing position. Instead he tries to drive whether or not the lane is open, hence all the charges and turnovers and wild shots. The guy in the basketball world is a moron. He has absolutely no idea how to play smart ball and unless we were playing in a 3-3 contest I wouldn't want the guy on my team. I have lost all patience with the guy and my thoughts the past couple years have proven correct. He is as good as he will ever be and as his athleticism drops he will quickly be useless to us. No way that Giddens or Walker can be much worse.

TA and House share 'bringing up the ball' duties probably 50/50, sometimes 70/30 if the other team makes it a priority to pressure House.  But the real point guard responsibilities, like running sets and creating off-the-dribble, fall mainly (i.e., over half the time) to TA, unless you count the Eddie House passing the ball 30 feet from the basket and running to the corner as an example of 'initiating the offense.'  You go on to say the ball gets to TA 'in the flow of the offense' and then sticks.  Well, first off, there is no flow to the 2nd unit.  The ball matriculates awkwardly to TA because there is no flow to the offense and, when it does, TA, under Doc's orders, attempts to create something because of that lack of flow.  That has not been working lately, as we all know.  But this is by design, out of necessity because we don't have competent point guard play. I mean, if this wasn't by design, Doc would pull TA after the first turnover just like he did in the past.  TA feeds to post and moves the ball pretty well when he's just another cog in a Rondo-led offense; but when he's asked to create because of bad point guard play it's another question.  His struggles come from being asked to play out of position and he's being asked to play out of position because the 2nd team lacks a point guard.  This is the issue, not his inability to play a position he's not well skilled at like point guard.

People act like the first 15 games of the season didn't happen or that TA didn't suffer a sprained ankle or that TA hasn't been asked to play an increasingly more point guard-like role on the 2nd team as the season has progressed.  Well, let me remind everyone: TA played very well the 1st 15 games of this season.  And, yes, he did sprain an ankle and, perhaps not so coincidentally, he's struggled with consistency since his return; a return which, marked by the overall struggle of the 2nd unit, has coincided with Doc asking TA to take on even more responsibility out there.  If you look at everything as a whole, there's a lot more to the struggles of TA and the 2nd unit than reductive, simplistic statements like "TA is a basketball moron" or "TA still hasn't developed after 4 years."  It's not that simple....

 

Writing a novel repeating your first post doesn't make that correct. I have League Pass and have watched every minute of every game this year and TA is NOT playing PG. Using your logic PP and Ray are playing PG on the starting unit because Rondo passes them the ball first the majority of the time. House is bringing the ball up the floor and initiating the offense. TA is running to the wing just like the 2 usually does. When they stop the dribbler House kicks it to TA. That doesn't make him the PG anymore than Ray or Paul. The few games that Gabe has been in there HE even runs the point before TA.

As far as him doing a great job sending the ball into the post with Rondo as the PG, but not on the second unit, that just confirms my comments. Powe goes to the block and wants to receive the inbound pass. TA just won't give it to him. He thinks that the correct play always is to lower his head and charge in. There is no question House has a harder time getting it up the floor as deep as Rondo does, but the biggest reason the 2nd unit has no flow is that TA holds the ball and chokes the flow off.

Doc is asking TA to play the position that he should be, the 2 and sometimes 3. TA has absolutely NO ability to play the point and Doc knows that. You are using your argument based on last years and the year before attempt to make him a PG. It is just not happening this year.

The issue is very clear. TA is a dumb player out there on the floor and is better suited for pickup basketball than he is for NBA play where it requires a guy to think. His high degree of athleticism has allowed him to get by, but it is slipping.

Dumb is a harsh word, but I essentially agree with your post. Your six and sevens off the bench need to be multi-faceted players with some basketball smarts. Tony's not multi-faceted at all - his strengths are defense, although he's not the lockdown defender the revisionists here want to make him out to be, and the occasional slash to the basket when he doesn't toss up a brick or turn the basketball over.

He's a 9 or a 10 who's having to fill the 6 in a poorly constructed bench. Whether people are desperate to make Tony into the star he isn't or not, the facts are pretty clear: His usefulness to a championship contender is as a defensive stopper for short periods; he's not that useful with the basketball in his hands because he still struggles to make intelligent decisions with it.

He's being asked to fill a role he can't fill, as is House. Hopefully, some more well-rounded help is on the way so Tony and Eddie can be plugged into roles their skillsets are more suited to fill.

[nickagneta]

Just to chime in Tony Allen has not been playing PG this season. Has he brought the ball up for the second unit in a couple of games? Yes he has. Two maybe, three times this year. I don't know why Doc has had him do this on occasion, maybe because the opponent has a backup PG that likes to pressure the ball, I don't know, but he has done it on occasion.

But that does not make him a point guard nor has he been playing PG. He's been playing the 2 or 3 position religiously all year and has been his old inconsistent self. It doesn't make Tony a bad player just a run of the mill back up.

[moiso]

The high level of TA bashing is pretty amazing considering his salary.  He makes half of what Scal makes per year.  Posters are dissappointed that he's not coming close to replacing Posey, but TA makes 1.5mil/year, while Posey makes around $6mil.  They are not supposed to be equivalent players.

[cordobes]

It's curious... I thought that one of Tony Allen's greatest advantages and one of the reasons he'd be such a great fit as the 6th man and leader of the 2nd unit for this team was his shot creating ability.

I was said Tony Allen would be a very good and consistent player once he'd fully recover from his injuries; then that he'd be good given minutes... and now he needs to play alongside a pure point-guard. Geez.. what's the next excuse?

Reading some of the above posts surprises me a lot, because I had a lengthy and fierce discussion during the pre-season about what Tony could bring to the table. And I read stuff like:

He's going to get minutes this season and put up numbers.

His jump shot was terribly inconsistent last year because he the confidence in his knee varied from game to game.  Likewise, his handle was also inconsistent because of lingering concerns about his knee.  But, as history has shown, when his knee comes back and he regains his confidence, his jump shot and handle miraculously return as well.

Bottom line: Tony has always produced very well when healthy and when given minutes.  He has both this year and he will produce.  End of discussion.

Well, I suppose the discussion is still open.

So Tony will for sure get the 20+ minutes he needs to be effective AND he will get to be the man, at least for the minutes he plays.  One of the gigantic flaws of last years bench was having nobody to create offense, Posey and House were nothing more than spot up shooters who benefited from others creating their shots.  Doc can now sit Paul and Ray and let Tony be that guy with the second unit, so people who think what we are seeing is an aberration because his minutes and role are going to go down, don't really understand the way the Celtics plan on using him.

It's very curious indeed. Now, here we are again, saying that Tony Allen under-produces because there's no one in the bench that can create offense - the exact problem Tony Allen was supposed to solve!

Well, what about this: perhaps, just perhaps, Tony Allen simply isn't that good? Maybe he lacks what Coach Knight called "the fundamental skill of concentration and consistency"? Maybe he's not good enough to be the 6th man in a NBA team? Maybe his handle is inconsistent because it's not really that good? Maybe miracles don't happen that often, at least when it comes to the skill of basketball players?

About pairing Rondo and Allen in the 2nd unit... what's hard to understand about the huge problems that would create? Teams will just pack the middle like crazy, there won't be no space to operate, especially throwing Powe in there as well. Unless we play House and Scalabrine in the same unit. But that line-up would be the most undersized in the league.

And something that many are missing: there's a huge difference between undersized-ball and small-ball. Whatever you think about the second one, it's always better than the first.

[cordobes]

The high level of TA bashing is pretty amazing considering his salary.  He makes half of what Scal makes per year.  Posters are dissappointed that he's not coming close to replacing Posey, but TA makes 1.5mil/year, while Posey makes around $6mil.  They are not supposed to be equivalent players.

You are wrong about his salary. He makes $2.5 milllion per year.

But you're right on the overall picture, anyway. This is the salary of a 4th option in a guard/wing rotation, not of a 6th man for a contender.

[nickagneta]

It's curious... I thought that one of Tony Allen's greatest advantages and one of the reasons he'd be such a great fit as the 6th man and leader of the 2nd unit for this team was his shot creating ability.

I was said Tony Allen would be a very good and consistent player once he'd fully recover from his injuries; then that he'd be good given minutes... and now he needs to play alongside a pure point-guard. Geez.. what's the next excuse?

Reading some of the above posts surprises me a lot, because I had a lengthy and fierce discussion during the pre-season about what Tony could bring to the table. And I read stuff like:

He's going to get minutes this season and put up numbers.

His jump shot was terribly inconsistent last year because he the confidence in his knee varied from game to game.  Likewise, his handle was also inconsistent because of lingering concerns about his knee.  But, as history has shown, when his knee comes back and he regains his confidence, his jump shot and handle miraculously return as well.

Bottom line: Tony has always produced very well when healthy and when given minutes.  He has both this year and he will produce.  End of discussion.

Well, I suppose the discussion is still open.

So Tony will for sure get the 20+ minutes he needs to be effective AND he will get to be the man, at least for the minutes he plays.  One of the gigantic flaws of last years bench was having nobody to create offense, Posey and House were nothing more than spot up shooters who benefited from others creating their shots.  Doc can now sit Paul and Ray and let Tony be that guy with the second unit, so people who think what we are seeing is an aberration because his minutes and role are going to go down, don't really understand the way the Celtics plan on using him.

It's very curious indeed. Now, here we are again, saying that Tony Allen under-produces because there's no one in the bench that can create offense - the exact problem Tony Allen was supposed to solve!

Well, what about this: perhaps, just perhaps, Tony Allen simply isn't that good? Maybe he lacks what Coach Knight called "the fundamental skill of concentration and consistency"? Maybe he's not good enough to be the 6th man in a NBA team? Maybe his handle is inconsistent because it's not really that good? Maybe miracles don't happen that often, at least when it comes to the skill of basketball players?

About pairing Rondo and Allen in the 2nd unit... what's hard to understand about the huge problems that would create? Teams will just pack the middle like crazy, there won't be no space to operate, especially throwing Powe in there as well. Unless we play House and Scalabrine in the same unit. But that line-up would be the most undersized in the league.

And something that many are missing: there's a huge difference between undersized-ball and small-ball. Whatever you think about the second one, it's always better than the first.

cordobes, you need to stop bringing all this knowledge and logic to the Tony Allen discussion. It really isn't fair because most Tony Allen supporters don't like to deal with those type of realities.

I got killed this summer for criticizing Danny's work on his bench and for my continued non-belief in the Tony Allen folklore that has grown to near hero status. Sometimes I hate being correct as the season progresses it's become fairly obvious that this bench has huge flaws and that Tony Allen is what I have been saying he is for the last two years on this website.

[CoachBo]

It's curious... I thought that one of Tony Allen's greatest advantages and one of the reasons he'd be such a great fit as the 6th man and leader of the 2nd unit for this team was his shot creating ability.

I was said Tony Allen would be a very good and consistent player once he'd fully recover from his injuries; then that he'd be good given minutes... and now he needs to play alongside a pure point-guard. Geez.. what's the next excuse?

Reading some of the above posts surprises me a lot, because I had a lengthy and fierce discussion during the pre-season about what Tony could bring to the table. And I read stuff like:

He's going to get minutes this season and put up numbers.

His jump shot was terribly inconsistent last year because he the confidence in his knee varied from game to game.  Likewise, his handle was also inconsistent because of lingering concerns about his knee.  But, as history has shown, when his knee comes back and he regains his confidence, his jump shot and handle miraculously return as well.

Bottom line: Tony has always produced very well when healthy and when given minutes.  He has both this year and he will produce.  End of discussion.

Well, I suppose the discussion is still open.

So Tony will for sure get the 20+ minutes he needs to be effective AND he will get to be the man, at least for the minutes he plays.  One of the gigantic flaws of last years bench was having nobody to create offense, Posey and House were nothing more than spot up shooters who benefited from others creating their shots.  Doc can now sit Paul and Ray and let Tony be that guy with the second unit, so people who think what we are seeing is an aberration because his minutes and role are going to go down, don't really understand the way the Celtics plan on using him.

It's very curious indeed. Now, here we are again, saying that Tony Allen under-produces because there's no one in the bench that can create offense - the exact problem Tony Allen was supposed to solve!

Well, what about this: perhaps, just perhaps, Tony Allen simply isn't that good? Maybe he lacks what Coach Knight called "the fundamental skill of concentration and consistency"? Maybe he's not good enough to be the 6th man in a NBA team? Maybe his handle is inconsistent because it's not really that good? Maybe miracles don't happen that often, at least when it comes to the skill of basketball players?

About pairing Rondo and Allen in the 2nd unit... what's hard to understand about the huge problems that would create? Teams will just pack the middle like crazy, there won't be no space to operate, especially throwing Powe in there as well. Unless we play House and Scalabrine in the same unit. But that line-up would be the most undersized in the league.

And something that many are missing: there's a huge difference between undersized-ball and small-ball. Whatever you think about the second one, it's always better than the first.

cordobes, you need to stop bringing all this knowledge and logic to the Tony Allen discussion. It really isn't fair because most Tony Allen supporters don't like to deal with those type of realities.

I got killed this summer for criticizing Danny's work on his bench and for my continued non-belief in the Tony Allen folklore that has grown to near hero status. Sometimes I hate being correct as the season progresses it's become fairly obvious that this bench has huge flaws and that Tony Allen is what I have been saying he is for the last two years on this website.

The facts make some people angry, Nick. That's a fact. What is it about a prophet hath no honor in his own house.

Chuckle. Tony is what he is, a role player with significant limitations, and to try to talk him into stardom just doesn't work.

Excellent thoughts and TPs for both of you.

[Chris]

Chuckle. Tony is what he is, a role player with significant limitations, and to try to talk him into stardom just doesn't work.

Excellent thoughts and TPs for both of you.

I agree with the tone of your post, but I just have one quibble.  I think Tony's problem actually is that he absolutely is NOT a role-player, and that is what he needs to be. 

Tony's only success (and I use that term very loosely) has been when he has been allowed to be the "star", and basically go out there and play streetball without a conscience.  He can't tone it down and be productive, because unless he is jacking up shots, and getting lots of touches, he loses his concentration.

I have been saying since last season, and I still believe it, that some lottery team would be very smart to trade for Tony Allen.  He won't win them many games, but he will put up big-time numbers, and make some highlight reels, and make a GM look like a genius for a couple of years for finding a "diamond in the rough".