A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Moranis]

Having now watched the season, I have no idea why they put Sansa in Winterfell to marry Ramsey if she wasn't going to get revenge on him and his father.  It makes absolutely no sense.  She should be in the Vale with Littlefinger like she is in the books if she wasn't going to get her revenge.  It is just really strange to change her storyline and then not have her get revenge.  Makes no sense.

I think it's because they wanted to give Theon a chance to redeem himself. In the books Jayne Poole posing as Arya is the one that marries Ramsey. However, she doesn't exist on the shows so for Theon to get redemption he had to escape with a character that people care about on the show.

I agree that they shouldn't have done it this way, but I see the reasoning.

Yeah but the only way I see Sansa's two storyline converging now is if she dies.  I mean how is she going to go from marrying Harold in the books to ending up somewhere way far north with Theon (maybe at the Wall).  I mean the only thing I can logically think of is that she dies or is completely and utterly meaningless to the overall story arc (and I don't think it is the latter and thus must be the former).

I didn't think it was set in the books who she was going to marry, but I could just be forgetting.

If she runs back to the Eyrie that would put her back on track to be on her storyline from the book.

Harrold Hardyng (Harry the Heir) next in line to the Vale after Sansa's sickly cousin Robert, at least that is Littlefinger's plan which he has set in motion and tells Sansa of at the end of Book 4 (Sansa isn't in Book 5).  The Sansa chapter from book 6 that was released online confirms that all of that has been set in motion and Harrold and Sansa are to be married.  Harrold does not yet know that Sansa is in fact Sansa Stark, he, as does everyone, believes Sansa to be Littlefinger's **** daughter.

[Moranis]

If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style...  they would meet it with ridicule. 

Not necessarily.

Lady Melisandre met Arya.  Said they'd meet again (also, notice the "eyes you'll shut forever"...).  So could be a long way of developing characters for some storyline we don't know about yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCpREHf6k

Maybe the Red God wanted to manipulate things so that The Bolton's were drawn out of Winterfell and Sansa had a chance to escape. Maybe the Bolton's flags burning is what happens after Sansa unites the north and convinces her allies (lead by the Eyerie) to take back Winterfell.

It's possible that Melisandre knew this all along, or she was played by the Red God.

except when that was filmed I don't believe they knew they were going to put Sansa in Winterfell.  She isn't there in the books.

[Evantime34]

If Jon is dead... it makes the red woman entirely pointless as a character... and nobody would meet that with praise for Martin's arbitrary random writing style...  they would meet it with ridicule. 

Not necessarily.

Lady Melisandre met Arya.  Said they'd meet again (also, notice the "eyes you'll shut forever"...).  So could be a long way of developing characters for some storyline we don't know about yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAyCpREHf6k

Maybe the Red God wanted to manipulate things so that The Bolton's were drawn out of Winterfell and Sansa had a chance to escape. Maybe the Bolton's flags burning is what happens after Sansa unites the north and convinces her allies (lead by the Eyerie) to take back Winterfell.

It's possible that Melisandre knew this all along, or she was played by the Red God.

except when that was filmed I don't believe they knew they were going to put Sansa in Winterfell.  She isn't there in the books.

that is a good point, it wouldn't make sense for the red god to cook all this up just to free Sansa if she isn't there in the book. TP

[Celtics4ever]

The Starks probably have the loyalty of the North and most likely the Wildings now thanks to Jon Snow.   I think this will play a part in the Bolton's downfall more so than people who think it will be Littlefinger to bring them down.

Mel was brought back to the wall for a reason folks.   In all likelihood, if I were in her shoes, I would have hid and went back to her home not the wall.   She is at the wall for a reason.

Foreshadowing clues that we have:

Kill the boy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIFtQOJ_tI

Jon always comes back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHoZDD6V19c

this setup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfnl9owFc84

they did a lot of work setting this up folks.

Mel is there for Jon, so is Davos, not just there for Arya.   Only people who think that are Dany supporters.

[LarBrd33]

I can't really see Jon coming back.  I feel like George RR Martin got bored with the Stannis/Jon Snow plotline and just ended it.  Maybe Stannis doesn't die, but GRRM needs room for Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to come through and having Snow and a bunch of random Wildlings is  going to muddy everything up.  I'm pretty sure that the reason that Stannis had all his troops desert him was just because it was an easy plot device to have him lose that battle and get him out of the way.

I'd bet you all of my TPs that Jon Snow is coming back.  There's just no way he isn't.  The entire story is built around him.  For him to be dead permanently would negate SOOO Much of what we have been shown.   Why was our time wasted on the brotherhood without banners (who resurrect people)?  Why was our time wasted with the red woman and her quest for kingsblood... even hinted that she might be backing the wrong horse?  Why was our time wasted with her flirting with Snow and setting up seeds for a future together?  Why was so much time invested setting up a battle royale with Jon vs the whitewalker king?  Why was so much time wasted on the Starks in general?   Why was so much time wasted hinting that Jon isn't Eddard's ****?  Why did they go out of their way to have TWO scenes this season talking about Rheagar Targayen (both littlefinger/sansa talking about them... and Dany talking to Barristan Selmy making it clear that Rheagar was just a widely beloved prince who sang out loud and fell in love with Eddard's sister?) ...  Why was so much time wasted at the wall in general?   Trust me... he's going to be resurrected.   Anyone who thinks otherwise either hasn't been paying attention or doesn't understand how storytelling works.   There is thousands of years of fake world building here... several ridiculously long books packed to the brim with characters... very limited screen time.  They aren't going to waste the viewer's time with irrelevant details. 

Frankly, most of the people who have died on this show haven't been all that important.  Robb Stark, for instance... I never read the books but it didnt' surprise me at all to learn that he wasn't a "point of view" character in the books.  He never felt essential to the overall arc.   He was a secondary character who helped drive the plot further.  Jon Snow, however... is literally the central element of the entire "ice and fire" story.   For them to kill him off would require them to basically rebuild the entire story... and I can't see them doing that with only a couple seasons left. 

You can't have multiple characters cryptically tell Jon "You know nothing, Jon Snow" and then randomly kill him off mid-arc.  That would just be pointless... "lolz, we so randoms!!... he he he"... This is Game of Thrones, not Tim and Eric.   

Killing him (temporarily) gets him out of his "till death" vows.  Now he can use this loophole to reach the end of this story:  King Jon Targayen. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHqzFwodZqQ

[Moranis]

Seems fairly obvious that Jon is Azor Ahai, but then again it could be Bran who is a pretty central part of the story in the books. 

[Celtics4ever]

GRRM's original ideas for  GOT, a sales pitch for his editor.

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/

It says a warrior in the prophecy

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai

this legend is more applicable to Bran

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero

[Moranis]

GRRM's original ideas for  GOT, a sales pitch for his editor.

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/

It says a warrior in the prophecy

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai

this legend is more applicable to Bran

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero

read the letter from Martin to the publisher.  Some definitely interesting stuff in there, but so much has been changed in the books I'm not sure how much value it has overall.  There are obviously some potential spoilers about the ultimate end game though, so read at your own caution.

[LarBrd33]

GRRM's original ideas for  GOT, a sales pitch for his editor.

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

http://watchersonthewall.com/george-r-r-martins-original-plan-game-thrones/

It says a warrior in the prophecy

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai

this legend is more applicable to Bran

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero

TL;DR:   In GRR Martin's pitch, he explicitly says ""until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book"...

#1 - Jon is a Targaryen
#2 - There's a 0% chance he stays dead. 

They have spent so much time building up that storyline as the core of the entire series, that to permanently kill him off would be like "shoot, I need to retroactively change this entire series, because fans are on to me... even though it will make this entire creative endeavor a gigantic steaming dump of storytelling randomness"  ... It's like how everyone who watched LOST predicted that it would end with them in purgatory...  Even if it was the most popular solution, they went with that as the ending anyways since it made the most sense.  Granted, LOST is a bad example, because the majority of it was just random nonsense as the writers flew by the seat of their pants trying to fill time as the series kept getting renewed.    Thrones, however, has a very clearly defined arc and a very defined ending.  For Jon Snow to die right now would be like making the mystery of Harry Potter/Voldermort the focus of 4 stories... and then randomly killing them off in book 4 without revealing the secrets ... and have it end with a couple books focused on Neville Longbottom and his struggles with school work.

[Celtics4ever]

I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn.  I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.

Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany live through the story too.

[Evantime34]

I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn.  I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.

Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany live through the story too.

Yeah, I think Jon spends a good portion of next season/next book in Ghost's body and then Bran helps him get reborn in a different body (maybe that of one of the Children of the forest). So maybe Kit Harrington is dead as Jon Snow, but someone else will be playing him before the 6th season is over.

George RR Martin really needs to get his stuff together. If the book doesn't come out before next season on HBO there is a good chance I won't buy the book. I went to his blog and saw he was flying to Germany to promote one of his other books. Why he continues to work on other books instead of focusing on the one everyone cares about is beyond me.

[fairweatherfan]

Way behind the discussion but I finally got a chance to watch the finale last night.  Some thoughts:

- I was kinda disappointed to see Stannis go out like a punk - it was never going to end well for him but I thought he'd have a bigger role in the endgame.  It's fitting that killing his daughter was the last thread that finally made his army unravel, though. 

- Relatedly, in the books Shireen is still at the Wall.  Barring something weird Stannis can't both burn her and die at Winterfell, so I'm curious how it's handled there.

- Balon Greyjoy technically winning the War of Five Kings is a pretty funny side effect of the show's plot changes, since he was the second king to die (after Renly) in the books.  He'll be dead soon enough if casting rumors are accurate.

- The Dorne storyline was just awful.  I thought they'd have a chance to redeem it but killing Myrcella - while the heir to Dorne is on the same boat! - was just stupid.  And it made Doran completely pointless.  At a minimum Ellaria should've given her own life to give the poison kiss, but yuck, what a terrible plot line.

- They did a good job with Cersei's walk of shame, to the point that it made me uncomfortable.  I read that the full nude shots were actually a composite of her face CGI'ed onto a double's body, which is pretty crazy since I didn't notice. 

- Stannis flaming out is very strong additional evidence to me that Jon is coming back.  Otherwise the only characters in the North that we care about are Davos at the Wall and Theon/Sansa running away.  Unless the Night's Watch and Boltons are supposed to get swiftly steamrolled by the Walkers, there needs to be a major character somewhere in the area for what's coming.

[Moranis]

I didn't notice the CGI head either, but Lena Headley was pregnant at the time and thus obviously could not appear fully in that scene.

[Emmette Bryant]

I think Jon Snow had to die so the prince that was promised would be reborn.  I think that will be Jon but he may call himself something different.

Gandalf the White?

[incoherent]

My hope is that when the red witch revives Jon he decides to abandon the NWs because ... well they just tried to kill him.   He then goes overseas and joins Danny and becomes one of the dragon riders.