Author Topic: NBA's all-time starting 5  (Read 16264 times)

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Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2013, 11:25:00 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.

I guess I'd prefer Garnett for the exact opposite reason.  Better floor spacing.  With Russell down low, Garnett being more of a pick-and-pop player opens up the floor for Magic, MJ and Bird.  KG's screen setting abilities might give this team an edge as well.

Garnett was also a better passer, rebounder and defender.  Not by a lot, but noticeably enough to make a difference.

I've always salivated at the thought of what Russ and KG could do on D.

I do also think what 'mmmmm' said in an earlier post deserves some thought.  With Bird and MJ already on the roster, it might be a better overall team with the Glove at PG for defensive purposes.  GP, KG and Russ would be scary.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:33:02 AM by KGs Knee »

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2013, 11:38:56 AM »

Offline bdm860

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With the Wilt/Russell argument, I would compare it to how certain guys like Carmelo Anthony seem to drop in the CB Drafts.

While one of the most individually talented players in NBA today, it’s easier to go with a lesser individually talented player who you think it’s easier to build a winning basketball team around, so Carmelo seems to drop (along with other individually talented players who are hard to build around).  Basketball is a team game.  Look at Wilt, later when he played with Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, and Gail Goodrich, they were a good team but still came up short, except for one year when Baylor was finally out, they were able to win only one championship (0-2 with the Wilt/West/Baylor trio, 1-2 with the Wilt/West/Goodrich combo I believe).  Sure that core was older, but was it that different than the aging stars on last few of Russell’s championship teams (Russell won championships at 33 and 34, with Sam Jones (34 and 35), Bailey Howell (31 and 32) all in the top 4 of minutes played for the C’s).

Just read a book from the 70’s (Foul: The Connie Hawkins story, awesome book by the way), and it was talking about how Wilt and Jerry West and Elgin Baylor all hated each other.  Wilt would purposely set up on Elgin Baylor’s side, not giving Baylor room to drive, because he knew Baylor hated it.  Wilt also hated the high post, and one playoff game the Lakers coach had him set up their for a couple of plays, so out of spite Wilt set up there for the rest of the game never becoming involved in the offense only scoring 11 points and attempting 2 free throws, both absurdly low for Wilt. And these are 1972 accounts from the book, not my opinion, or revisionist explanation.  Wilt was a guy who seemed to care more about himself then doing what’s best for the team.  He only wanted to do things his way.

(On a side note, a few interesting negative Celtic stories in that book too about Red, Cousy, and Sam Jones).

I think going with Wilt, and teaming him with other superstars, some may worry you’d end up dysfunctional team like the 2013 Lakers.

That being said, I’d probably move Russell to PF and have Wilt at C (but I understand why people would go with just Russell instead).

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Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »

Offline Celtic

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Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2013, 11:55:17 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.

I guess I'd prefer Garnett for the exact opposite reason.  Better floor spacing.  With Russell down low, Garnett being more of a pick-and-pop player opens up the floor for Magic, MJ and Bird.  KG's screen setting abilities might give this team an edge as well.

Garnett was also a better passer, rebounder and defender.  Not by a lot, but noticeably enough to make a difference.

I've always salivated at the thought of what Russ and KG could do on D.

I do also think what 'mmmmm' said in an earlier post deserves some thought.  With Bird and MJ already on the roster, it might be a better overall team with the Glove at PG for defensive purposes.  GP, KG and Russ would be scary.


Duncan and KG are equals in terms of rebounding and defense.  Both can hit an open jumpshot.  With all the perimeter offense out there, I want a guy who can post up.  Both Bird and Magic had great success with low post offensive threats. 



And I want to see Bird and Magic on the same team.  When they played together in the Olympics (before they were NBA stars), the passing those two did was great. 

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2013, 11:59:11 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Magic
Jordon
Bird
Duncan
Russell

Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.

I guess I'd prefer Garnett for the exact opposite reason.  Better floor spacing.  With Russell down low, Garnett being more of a pick-and-pop player opens up the floor for Magic, MJ and Bird.  KG's screen setting abilities might give this team an edge as well.

Garnett was also a better passer, rebounder and defender.  Not by a lot, but noticeably enough to make a difference.

I've always salivated at the thought of what Russ and KG could do on D.

I do also think what 'mmmmm' said in an earlier post deserves some thought.  With Bird and MJ already on the roster, it might be a better overall team with the Glove at PG for defensive purposes.  GP, KG and Russ would be scary.


Duncan and KG are equals in terms of rebounding and defense.  Both can hit an open jumpshot.  With all the perimeter offense out there, I want a guy who can post up.  Both Bird and Magic had great success with low post offensive threats. 



And I want to see Bird and Magic on the same team.  When they played together in the Olympics (before they were NBA stars), the passing those two did was great.

Ultimately, I just think KG was a better overall player.  It's like splitting hairs though, so either would likely be fine.  And yes, in the end, I would go with Magic over Payton.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2013, 12:14:23 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 01:06:51 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Magic
Jordon
Bird
Duncan
Russell

Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.

I guess I'd prefer Garnett for the exact opposite reason.  Better floor spacing.  With Russell down low, Garnett being more of a pick-and-pop player opens up the floor for Magic, MJ and Bird.  KG's screen setting abilities might give this team an edge as well.

Garnett was also a better passer, rebounder and defender.  Not by a lot, but noticeably enough to make a difference.

I've always salivated at the thought of what Russ and KG could do on D.

I do also think what 'mmmmm' said in an earlier post deserves some thought.  With Bird and MJ already on the roster, it might be a better overall team with the Glove at PG for defensive purposes.  GP, KG and Russ would be scary.


Duncan and KG are equals in terms of rebounding and defense.  Both can hit an open jumpshot.  With all the perimeter offense out there, I want a guy who can post up.  Both Bird and Magic had great success with low post offensive threats. 



And I want to see Bird and Magic on the same team.  When they played together in the Olympics (before they were NBA stars), the passing those two did was great.

Your comment implies that KG was not able to post up.   The fact is, KG was (and actually still IS) a fantastic post-up player.   One of his signature scoring moves has always been and continues to be his post-up, shake-and-turn jumper from about 4 feet that is almost impossible to stop.  He has at least 5 variations of this move that leave defenders basically guessing what he's going to do.

Here are 5 minutes of absolute viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1VQVYrtnYzs

The thing about KG though, is that he provides tremendous overall offensive _value_ to a team offense with his ability to stretch the defense.   

Indeed, KG is probably THE most significant pioneer of the modern 'stretch big'.   Because he can consistently hit that 16-23 foot jumper at almost 50% (a truly ridiculous number if you think about it), he absolutely commands an opposing big man to have to come out of the paint to defend him.   This, in turn, means that there is only one big left inside to defend the post against KG's teammates.

This ability to stretch has made it important for KG to take a large percentage of his shots from outside.  That doesn't mean he doesn't also have the ability to score down low.    Look at Game 2 of this series - that's what Doc changed the offense to try to do (feeding KG in the post) - and it was working, except that the ridiculous foul trouble kept KG from staying on the floor.

KG in his prime was an unstoppable beast inside and could create points in a much wider variety of ways than Duncan.

To suggest Duncan was a better post-up player is not, imho, accurate.  Duncan was/is a great low-post scorer and has tended to score _more_ of his points down low.  KG, imho, was/is just as good a low-post scorer, but simply scored a smaller share of his points that way because he is a much more versatile overall offensive weapon.

Even though KG took a larger share of his shots from farther from the basket (lower percentage shots), his overall TS% and eFG% are nearly identical to Duncan's.   Indeed, though he has taken fewer shots 'at rim' and 'in close' compared to Duncan, his FG% at those ranges is actually better.  In fact, overall, KG has been a better shooter from every range than Duncan.

Duncan has been a truly great player and I'm not going to argue who, in the end is the absolute 'better' player between he and KG.   And Duncan was and is a more consistent low post _presence_ on offense.   But KG was and is much more multi-talented on offense than Duncan and, imho, just as good in the low post when he needed to be there.
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Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 01:11:01 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Magic
Jordon
Bird
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Russell

Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.

I guess I'd prefer Garnett for the exact opposite reason.  Better floor spacing.  With Russell down low, Garnett being more of a pick-and-pop player opens up the floor for Magic, MJ and Bird.  KG's screen setting abilities might give this team an edge as well.

Garnett was also a better passer, rebounder and defender.  Not by a lot, but noticeably enough to make a difference.

I've always salivated at the thought of what Russ and KG could do on D.

I do also think what 'mmmmm' said in an earlier post deserves some thought.  With Bird and MJ already on the roster, it might be a better overall team with the Glove at PG for defensive purposes.  GP, KG and Russ would be scary.


Duncan and KG are equals in terms of rebounding and defense.  Both can hit an open jumpshot.  With all the perimeter offense out there, I want a guy who can post up.  Both Bird and Magic had great success with low post offensive threats. 



And I want to see Bird and Magic on the same team.  When they played together in the Olympics (before they were NBA stars), the passing those two did was great.

Your comment implies that KG was not able to post up.   The fact is, KG was (and actually still IS) a fantastic post-up player.   One of his signature scoring moves has always been and continues to be his post-up, shake-and-turn jumper from about 4 feet that is almost impossible to stop.  He has at least 5 variations of this move that leave defenders basically guessing what he's going to do.

Here are 5 minutes of absolute viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1VQVYrtnYzs

The thing about KG though, is that he provides tremendous overall offensive _value_ to a team offense with his ability to stretch the defense.   

Indeed, KG is probably THE most significant pioneer of the modern 'stretch big'.   Because he can consistently hit that 16-23 foot jumper at almost 50% (a truly ridiculous number if you think about it), he absolutely commands an opposing big man to have to come out of the paint to defend him.   This, in turn, means that there is only one big left inside to defend the post against KG's teammates.

This ability to stretch has made it important for KG to take a large percentage of his shots from outside.  That doesn't mean he doesn't also have the ability to score down low.    Look at Game 2 of this series - that's what Doc changed the offense to try to do (feeding KG in the post) - and it was working, except that the ridiculous foul trouble kept KG from staying on the floor.

KG in his prime was an unstoppable beast inside and could create points in a much wider variety of ways than Duncan.

To suggest Duncan was a better post-up player is not, imho, accurate.  Duncan was/is a great low-post scorer and has tended to score _more_ of his points down low.  KG, imho, was/is just as good a low-post scorer, but simply scored a smaller share of his points that way because he is a much more versatile overall offensive weapon.

Even though KG took a larger share of his shots from farther from the basket (lower percentage shots), his overall TS% and eFG% are nearly identical to Duncan's.   Indeed, though he has taken fewer shots 'at rim' and 'in close' compared to Duncan, his FG% at those ranges is actually better.  In fact, overall, KG has been a better shooter from every range than Duncan.

Duncan has been a truly great player and I'm not going to argue who, in the end is the absolute 'better' player between he and KG.   And Duncan was and is a more consistent low post _presence_ on offense.   But KG was and is much more multi-talented on offense than Duncan and, imho, just as good in the low post when he needed to be there.



But KG chooses not to be in the low post as often.


KG is one of the best PFs to ever play.


Duncan is the best PF to ever play.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2013, 01:18:27 PM »

Offline BlountTrauma30

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Russell
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Bird
Jordan
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For me, I find it impossible to leave off the greatest winner and defender of all time in Russell and he probably would play PF in today's league anyways so I don't see a problem with him and Wilt playing together.  Wilt and Jordan are the 2 most dominant players of all time, so they're absolute locks.  Bird and Magic would complement each other really well, they'd be 2 big guys that can score from anywhere on the floor, guard multiple positions, pass and rebound.  Lebron is in the conversation as a starter but I just don't think he's there yet.  If he wins another 2 championships, I'd probably put him as a starter then.  Shaq, KG and Duncan are in the mix as well.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2013, 01:19:38 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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I'll take Chamnberlain, Russ (at power forward), Bird, Magic and MJ. That team features the best two scorers in the history of the game in Wilt and MJ. Probably the best two passers ever in Magic and Larry. It also has the two best low post defenders and rebounders in Russ and Wilt. Who can score down low against this team and who can outrebound?

If I have to use a player who played only power forward then give me Garnett over Duncan.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2013, 01:22:14 PM »

Offline jay

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I'm only going to reference players from the Magic/Bird era on.  Russell, Wilt, etc I did not see and I have no idea about how to relate the game today to their game.

I would start with Magic, Bird, Kobe, and MJ because they have that super competitive fire that drove them more than anyone else.  I would say a defensive type center like a Russell would fill out that starting 5.  Either Hakeem or Shaq with that group would be sick. 

Next 5 would be Shaq or Hakeem, with Isiah, Lebron, Duncan, Barkley. 

3rd team: Kareem, Malone, Durant (projecting a little), Reggie, Stockton.

4th: KG, McHale, Pippen, Clyde, Iverson


That has to be very close to the top 20 players of the last 35 years.  Left out Chris Paul, Melo, Bernard King, Mark Jackson, Nique, Moses, ???

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2013, 01:26:03 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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As far as relating Wilt and Russ to players since the Bird/Magic era it's pretty simple. Basketball is about putting the ball through the hoop and conversely stopping your opponent from doing the same. Wilt was better at scoring the ball then anyone every and Russ was better at stopping opponents then anyone ever. It's really pretty easy to compare.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2013, 01:27:46 PM »

Offline jay

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As far as relating Wilt and Russ to players since the Bird/Magic era it's pretty simple. Basketball is about putting the ball through the hoop and conversely stopping your opponent from doing the same. Wilt was better at scoring the ball then anyone every and Russ was better at stopping opponents then anyone ever. It's really pretty easy to compare.


Yes, but would Wilt be like Dwight Howard today?  Big and strong but with so many great athletes and big 7 footers would it be harder for him to dominate today?


Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2013, 01:33:21 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I haven't seen this lineup yet:

I think today's players are just better than ones from the 60s, so with respect to wilt and russell, I just don't think they'd hold up as favorably in today's much improved talent level of the NBA:

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Bird
Duncan

Duncan's been a center for more than half his career, and is all-time level at that position. This gets Bird/Lebron/Magic on the floor together for amazing ball movement. Elite defenders at 3 positions.

Re: NBA's all-time starting 5
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Magic
Jordon
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Duncan
Russell

Substitute Garnett for Duncan, and you've got a winner.


I like prime Duncan better.  More likely to work the low post on offense.
The best argument for KG is if you were actually constructing the team and needed a more complimentary guy to pass and space the floor. Post work to center your offense is all Duncan.