CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: TheBigTicket23 on February 15, 2013, 09:16:57 AM
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I was just wondering, do you think Josh Smith is an elite defender? I really do, he is long, athletic, blocks, good man to man defense, rebounds, pretty fast aswell.
I actually think he is one of the few players that is close to guarding Lebron James pretty well. 6'9 / 225 / very strong guy.
I remember last year in the playoffs Smith made life very tough on our offense, like Igoudala did as well.
I see a lot of posts that people would not like to part with Lee because of his defense. Believe me I'm a huge fan of Lee but Josh Smith is such a great defender and a real compliment to KG on defense.
Lee + Bass + 1st round for Smith we obviously do. But Lee + Sullinger + 1st round I would also think about.
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He is absolutely an elite defender. He is probably one of the top 5-10 defenders in the game. That's where his value is.
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I was just wondering, do you think Josh Smith is an elite defender? I really do, he is long, athletic, blocks, good man to man defense, rebounds, pretty fast aswell.
I actually think he is one of the few players that is close to guarding Lebron James pretty well. 6'9 / 225 / very strong guy.
I remember last year in the playoffs Smith made life very tough on our offense, like Igoudala did as well.
I see a lot of posts that people would not like to part with Lee because of his defense. Believe me I'm a huge fan of Lee but Josh Smith is such a great defender and a real compliment to KG on defense.
Lee + Bass + 1st round for Smith we obviously do. But Lee + Sullinger + 1st round I would also think about.
Lee, sullinger and a first doesn't match the money up I don't think. It would have to be bass + lee.
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Definitely. Without question. His length and athleticism allow him to be.
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Certainly one of the best defenders in the game. Too bad he confuses himself with Scotty Pippen on the offensive end.
But I think Cs fans obsession with Smith is unhealthy. I don't believe he should be a big target for the Cs to begin with, but regardless there is absolutely no way Ferry is going to take a package of two of Green, Terry, Lee and Bass for him. Which means the Cs are not trading for him before the deadline.
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Yes he's an elite defender, though he's also prone to bad mental lapses of concentration. That lack of discpline prevents him from being a DPoY candidate.
His ability to defend the paint and the wing positions is very valuable.
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Just about every defensive metric backs up the claim that he is a top 10 defender every year, if not all-nba.
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Elite defender? Yes
Elite offensive player? No..... no not at all.
Elite knucklehead? Yes
Elite the best he can do is first or second round in playoffs then out? yes.
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I was just wondering, do you think Josh Smith is an elite defender? I really do, he is long, athletic, blocks, good man to man defense, rebounds, pretty fast aswell.
I actually think he is one of the few players that is close to guarding Lebron James pretty well. 6'9 / 225 / very strong guy.
I remember last year in the playoffs Smith made life very tough on our offense, like Igoudala did as well.
I see a lot of posts that people would not like to part with Lee because of his defense. Believe me I'm a huge fan of Lee but Josh Smith is such a great defender and a real compliment to KG on defense.
Lee + Bass + 1st round for Smith we obviously do. But Lee + Sullinger + 1st round I would also think about.
Lee, sullinger and a first doesn't match the money up I don't think. It would have to be bass + lee.
true, but I think you will need all 3 plus a first or two and maybe Melo. I'd still do it, as Smith could actually make a difference in the playoffs this year while none of those other guys would.
The money works on this deal and I think you have to do it.
Smith, Stevenson
for
Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Melo, 2013 1st
That also seems to be at least solid value back for Atlanta and would certainly be a better deal than the one that Brooklyn has offered.
If Atlanta doesn't want Lee he could probably be moved to Memphis who has shown an interest in him and has a cap exception (or other pieces like Tony Allen that they might be able to move for him).
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I don't think the C's have enough value to make a mid-season trade for him. (Brooklyn certainly doesn't).
We could very well be a sign and trade destination however, if Smith would rather come here than one of the teams with cap room.
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I don't think the C's have enough value to make a mid-season trade for him. (Brooklyn certainly doesn't).
We could very well be a sign and trade destination however, if Smith would rather come here than one of the teams with cap room.
I also don't think we got the value to trade for him, really if we don't want to give up Green. But we may have to best package although I'm not sure what Dallas has to offer for him. I guess it has to include Mayo otherwise the package won't be better. Maybe Atlanta takes 1/2 of our talents instead of nothing.
Although my 'bold' prediction is still that KG will retire after the season and that we will get Smith as a good replacement, if he is willing to accept less than a max contract because that's not his value. Although I would love to see KG/Smith play together for 1 seasons or so.
Do you really think Josh Smith is that big of a Knucklehead?? I mean he isn't in the news that often in bad way. I remember some but not THAT bad, you could state the argument that Rondo is even worse. Then I'm confident that we and the Celtics can fix this knucklehead with Rivers, Ainge and maybe Garnett around our team. Smith is just a lil tired of ATL I think. He needs a new challenge.
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Smith is absolutely an elite defender.
We would easily be the best defensive team in the league with KG, Smith and Bradley.
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Smith is absolutely an elite defender.
We would easily be the best defensive team in the league with KG, Smith and Bradley.
Oh man, i wish.....
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Nope
Elite shot blocker and help defender at the rim...if that's enough fine but I've never seen him lock a guy down
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very Good defender, with the tools to become an elite defender.
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Looking at some of the responses, I guess the question is...what IS an elite defender?
I really think there are only 2 or 3 true, lockdown defenders in the NBA, if that. So, if that is the criteria, then its tough to manage.
Personally I would classify an elite defender as a top 10 defender in the league overall, and someone who can actually influence the outcome of the game with their defense.
Guys I would put in this category are:
Lebron
Tony Allen
Avery Bradley
Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett
Luol Deng
Josh Smith
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Looking at some of the responses, I guess the question is...what IS an elite defender?
I really think there are only 2 or 3 true, lockdown defenders in the NBA, if that. So, if that is the criteria, then its tough to manage.
Personally I would classify an elite defender as a top 10 defender in the league overall, and someone who can actually influence the outcome of the game with their defense.
Guys I would put in this category are:
Lebron
Tony Allen
Avery Bradley
Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett
Luol Deng
Josh Smith
Right.
Sefolosha and Mbah a Moute are also very good defenders. I'd say Ibaka belongs in the list as well. And if the Bobcats had any idea how to use the guy, Biyombo could be on the list easily.
Both Bryant and Artest have fallen off, at this point.
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and I would probably add Andre Igoudala
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Looking at some of the responses, I guess the question is...what IS an elite defender?
The narrow criteria that results in just a handful of names would be players who, given sufficient playing time and a national spotlight, should be considered for defensive player of the year, assuming no bias towards big men.
A wider criteria might be players who should legitimately be considered if the All-Star teams were selected solely on defensive ability, without regard for offensive ability.
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Looking at some of the responses, I guess the question is...what IS an elite defender?
I really think there are only 2 or 3 true, lockdown defenders in the NBA, if that. So, if that is the criteria, then its tough to manage.
Personally I would classify an elite defender as a top 10 defender in the league overall, and someone who can actually influence the outcome of the game with their defense.
Guys I would put in this category are:
Lebron
Tony Allen
Avery Bradley
Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett
Luol Deng
Josh Smith
Which further illustrates my point, with Smith we would have 3 of the top 10 defenders in the league.
For that reason alone, Danny should be trying to get him.
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Looking at some of the responses, I guess the question is...what IS an elite defender?
I really think there are only 2 or 3 true, lockdown defenders in the NBA, if that. So, if that is the criteria, then its tough to manage.
Personally I would classify an elite defender as a top 10 defender in the league overall, and someone who can actually influence the outcome of the game with their defense.
Guys I would put in this category are:
Lebron
Tony Allen
Avery Bradley
Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett
Luol Deng
Josh Smith
I agree with all of what you said...but I personally have never watched the hawks and thought "oh gee they won that game because of josh smiths defense" I have thought that about the rest of your list though
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I know he's having a down year, but I think it is illogical not to have Dwight Howard listed somewhere.
For what it's worth, Josh Smith only has one Defensive team appearance (on the second team). I'd put him a notch below all of the people listed above and several notches below Dwight.
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For what it's worth, Josh Smith only has one Defensive team appearance (on the second team).
The same can be said for Luol Deng. Is it reasonable to put Smith on roughly the same level as Deng?
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very Good defender, with the tools to become an elite defender.
Yeah, I would say the same. I have Josh Smith as probably the third best defensive PF in the league behind Serge Ibaka and Taj Gibson.
Varejao would be above all three of them if he was still playing PF.
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I know he's having a down year, but I think it is illogical not to have Dwight Howard listed somewhere.
Yeah that omission is silly. DH12 is definitely an elite defender in the NBA. 5 months of play on a miserable defensive team with no coach isn't going to change my mind about that just yet.
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I know he's having a down year, but I think it is illogical not to have Dwight Howard listed somewhere.
Yeah that omission is silly. DH12 is definitely an elite defender in the NBA. 5 months of play on a miserable defensive team with no coach isn't going to change my mind about that just yet.
How could you even think of omitting DH12? O_o
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I know he's having a down year, but I think it is illogical not to have Dwight Howard listed somewhere.
Yeah that omission is silly. DH12 is definitely an elite defender in the NBA. 5 months of play on a miserable defensive team with no coach isn't going to change my mind about that just yet.
How could you even think of omitting DH12? O_o
Tim Duncan is another player worth mention. He leads the league in D Rating and is having a pretty impressive resurgent year on both offense and defense.
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Josh Smith has the tools but he doesn't always play that way.
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I mean we have to see the difference:
great defender Vs great rebounder
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender.
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Like I said. Can't have a discussion about what it means to be an elite defender if it just hear say. Also the point is how Smith would fit with the Celtics system which values team defense and not individual athletic prowess which may or may not add up to great defense. It is a mind set and is more than steals or blocks.
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Also when Rondo plays with Garnett he can gamble. When he plays with anyone else it exposes his weakness as a defender which is that he simply does not stay in front of his man.
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Also when Rondo plays with Garnett he can gamble. When he plays with anyone else it exposes his weakness as a defender which is that he simply does not stay in front of his man.
Rondo generally does a good job staying in front of his man. It' not a weakness of his, they normally need a pick to get past him. A lot of people think Rondo's never supposed to gamble, I don't think that's the case at all.
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I don;t know if he is or not, but he would be much better than Bass and would be our best rebounder, something we need badly.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
I've yelled at my TV when I've seen players get in the lane and watched Kevin Garnett not even attempt to make a play.
Now, I'll willingly admit that Kevin Garnett is the best defender I've ever seen play, but the above is a true story and it's happened on more than one occasion.
I'm just trying to help put things into perspective.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
I've yelled at my TV when I've seen players get in the lane and watched Kevin Garnett not even attempt to make a play.
Now, I'll willingly admit that Kevin Garnett is the best defender I've ever seen play, but the above is a true story and it's happened on more than one occasion.
I'm just trying to help put things into perspective.
Well played. TP.
In KG's defense, he's not 26 and super athletic. And at least KG doesn't take entire games off like Rondo is prone to doing. The times when KG has bad games are primarily because he just can't being it every night like he used to. The same cannot be said for Rondo.
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Finally a trade i agree with Josh smith for bass and green...now that is a good idea...keep rondo....you got the present, and the future....get sully back..a solid inside rebounder, bradley.....you got a team with a present and a future...! MeadowLark_Scal approves this message...!
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
I've yelled at my TV when I've seen players get in the lane and watched Kevin Garnett not even attempt to make a play.
Now, I'll willingly admit that Kevin Garnett is the best defender I've ever seen play, but the above is a true story and it's happened on more than one occasion.
I'm just trying to help put things into perspective.
Well played. TP.
In KG's defense, he's not 26 and super athletic. And at least KG doesn't take entire games off like Rondo is prone to doing. The times when KG has bad games are primarily because he just can't being it every night like he used to. The same cannot be said for Rondo.
Despite reading about it constantly here on CelticsBlog, I have never seen Rondo take an entire game off (not one in which he was actually playing, that is).
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
I've yelled at my TV when I've seen players get in the lane and watched Kevin Garnett not even attempt to make a play.
Now, I'll willingly admit that Kevin Garnett is the best defender I've ever seen play, but the above is a true story and it's happened on more than one occasion.
I'm just trying to help put things into perspective.
Well played. TP.
In KG's defense, he's not 26 and super athletic. And at least KG doesn't take entire games off like Rondo is prone to doing. The times when KG has bad games are primarily because he just can't being it every night like he used to. The same cannot be said for Rondo.
Despite reading about it constantly here on CelticsBlog, I have never seen Rondo take an entire game off (not one in which he was actually playing, that is).
Eh, agree to disagree.
Sure, every game Rondo makes some outstanding play, but I've watched maybe 5 or 6 games where Rondo is on cruise control from start-to-finish. Then you add in countless other games when he plays great for a quarter or two and then checks out. One of those games that I'll never forget is game 4 vs. Philly last year, when we started the game up like 20-4 with Rondo faking behind-the-back passes and scoring at will, and then in the second half he did basically nothing and we lost. That game really ticked me off big time.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
To me, what's unforgivable is watching him fail to even try to get over screens. I have yelled at my TV when I see Rondo just lackadaisically run into a screen and pretend like it's the Great Wall of China. I hate when he does that.
I've yelled at my TV when I've seen players get in the lane and watched Kevin Garnett not even attempt to make a play.
Now, I'll willingly admit that Kevin Garnett is the best defender I've ever seen play, but the above is a true story and it's happened on more than one occasion.
I'm just trying to help put things into perspective.
Well played. TP.
In KG's defense, he's not 26 and super athletic. And at least KG doesn't take entire games off like Rondo is prone to doing. The times when KG has bad games are primarily because he just can't being it every night like he used to. The same cannot be said for Rondo.
Despite reading about it constantly here on CelticsBlog, I have never seen Rondo take an entire game off (not one in which he was actually playing, that is).
Eh, agree to disagree.
Sure, every game Rondo makes some outstanding play, but I've watched maybe 5 or 6 games where Rondo is on cruise control from start-to-finish. Then you add in countless other games when he plays great for a quarter or two and then checks out. One of those games that I'll never forget is game 4 vs. Philly last year, when we started the game up like 20-4 with Rondo faking behind-the-back passes and scoring at will, and then in the second half he did basically nothing and we lost. That game really ticked me off big time.
That's just an example of the selective viewing which I feel goes on in regards to Rondo. Do you really see anyone in the NBA ever control a game from start to finish for every minute they are on the floor?
I don't see it very often, not even from the likes of Lebron James and Kevin Durant.
I understand having high standards for our young, rising star, but the expectations set for him are simply too unrealistic. Then, when he doesn't reach the unrealistic expectations set for him, fans start calling him lazy and disinterested.
What I do know is that he's shown countless times that he is indeed an elite level talent in the NBA. I'd be careful about tossing that kind of talent away. If we do, it could come back to bite us.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
I guess you should get a note to Doc and tell him to have Rondo play defense the way *you* want him to and stick to his man like glue instead of disrupting opposing offenses by playing the passing lanes.
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Wow! I must be really missing something here. How can a knucklehead like Smith who may have outstanding athleticism contribute to a team defense concept that has taken many players more than a half season to master. Just because Smith can block shots does not make him a great team defender.
Smith and Rondo both are great athletes that can play good defense if they want to; but they often just don't. To call Smith an elite defender when he has shown such a clear lack of discipline this season is a stretch. Kind of like saying Rondo is an elite defender.
Rondo is an elite defender when he wants to be one.
Fixed it for you.
Which is way more often than he's given credit for.
I don't know, it's pretty frustrating to watch Rondo reach and play passing lanes a lot and fail to come up with a steal. But I guess I can give him benefit of the doubt because he does rack up a bunch of steals.
I guess you should get a note to Doc and tell him to have Rondo play defense the way *you* want him to and stick to his man like glue instead of disrupting opposing offenses by playing the passing lanes.
He's good at what he does. Let him be.
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It is sooo apparent how some hold Rondo to some SUPERMAN standard...yet the hold no one ELSE to this same standard...."oh i seen rondo not be GREAT one night" oh man, can you imagine.....thyis speaks to the same response as always, because it is always true...have you EVER played tha game in a league....where it is always ON....not casual pick up.....because you GET injured ALL the time, fingers, shoulders, ankles, knees....bruises..and he plays ALL game, always getting taken out...NO CALLs...thrown hard to the ground....that EVER happen to you...well, it adds up.....but, you would know this...IF you played....so stop expecting HERO games ALL the time...PP, KG...alll those guys played flat....then they say "Ray is in a slump" so what does that mean.....why can't rondo be in a slump too....no one has great games all the time...