Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 415824 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1800 on: May 17, 2019, 12:18:56 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.


How would Bran end up being king?  He has no claim to the throne.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1801 on: May 17, 2019, 12:27:33 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness.  Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.



I think looking to "Fire and Blood" is a good way to see what Martin thinks is the type of person who is the "ideal" ruler in this universe.

King Jahaerys Targaryen is the main standout in that regard.

From the wiki:

Quote
Jaehaerys I Targaryen, also known as the Conciliator, the Wise or the Old King, was the fourth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne. He ascended the throne in 48 AC following the death of his uncle, Maegor I Targaryen. Jaehaerys was the longest reigning Targaryen monarch, sitting on the throne for fifty-five years. He was a dragonrider, riding Vermithor, the largest dragon after Balerion and Vhagar.

Quote
Jaehaerys was wise beyond his years.[8][9] He was fair-spoken, open-handed, and as chivalrous as he was courageous.[10] According to Grand Maester Benifer Jaehaerys was "learned as a maester and pious as a septon". Although Benifer might have attempted to flatter Jaehaerys with such a statement, according to Archmaester Gyldayn there was some truth to it as well.[10] Queen Alyssa, Jaehaerys's mother, is reported to have called Jaehaerys "the best of my three sons".[10]

Jaehaerys was decisive in both thought and deed, and always sought the most peaceable ends.[8] In times of trouble, instead of brooding on the issues, Jaehaerys would shrug off his sorrows and plunge himself into his work.[11][5] He never acted without thinking,[12] and did not trust in chance.[4] Nor did Jaehaerys like to make outright threats, but had other ways of making his disapproval felt. According to the Sealord of Braavos, Jaehaerys was very skillful in making veiled threats.[5]


You can hear some things there that sounds a bit like Jon, but the main difference is that Jaeharys was all about compromise.  He was known as "The Conciliator."  He was pragmatic.  He was also proud and severe.  He understood the need to command respect. 


Whereas Jon is quiet and self-effacing to the point of being almost meek, in some ways.  He makes no bones about the fact that he doesn't want power.

Jahaerys knew he was destined to be king from birth.  He was raised to the throne when he was still a child.  From the beginning he acted like a person who had spent a lot of time thinking about the fact that he would be king.  He embraced power, but seemed to recognize that the only way to keep it would be to not abuse it.

One way to put it might be that Jahaerys was always so secure in the knowledge of his own power that he didn't feel desperate to hoard it, flaunt it, or preemptively strike at those that might try to take it from him.


Jahaery's major defining actions were initially pardoning the lords that had sided with his predecessor, Maegor the cruel, and later undertaking to codify a set of laws to govern the entire seven kingdoms.



I'm not sure I see anybody in the current cast of characters who is really analogous to Jahaerys.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1802 on: May 17, 2019, 12:37:43 PM »

Online Moranis

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.


How would Bran end up being king?  He has no claim to the throne.
Ned's claim to the throne was basically as strong as Robert's, but Ned didn't want it and Robert did.  By that logic, if there are no Targ's then the sons of both Ned and Robert would have about an equal claim to the throne, which would put Bran around the same claim as Gendry (assuming you accept him as not a Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again.).  So if Dany and Jon are both out of the picture, Bran's claim might very well be the strongest one (since you know he wasn't a Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. and presumably would have the support of the north). 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1803 on: May 17, 2019, 12:40:01 PM »

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It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness.  Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.



I think looking to "Fire and Blood" is a good way to see what Martin thinks is the type of person who is the "ideal" ruler in this universe.

King Jahaerys Targaryen is the main standout in that regard.

From the wiki:

Quote
Jaehaerys I Targaryen, also known as the Conciliator, the Wise or the Old King, was the fourth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne. He ascended the throne in 48 AC following the death of his uncle, Maegor I Targaryen. Jaehaerys was the longest reigning Targaryen monarch, sitting on the throne for fifty-five years. He was a dragonrider, riding Vermithor, the largest dragon after Balerion and Vhagar.

Quote
Jaehaerys was wise beyond his years.[8][9] He was fair-spoken, open-handed, and as chivalrous as he was courageous.[10] According to Grand Maester Benifer Jaehaerys was "learned as a maester and pious as a septon". Although Benifer might have attempted to flatter Jaehaerys with such a statement, according to Archmaester Gyldayn there was some truth to it as well.[10] Queen Alyssa, Jaehaerys's mother, is reported to have called Jaehaerys "the best of my three sons".[10]

Jaehaerys was decisive in both thought and deed, and always sought the most peaceable ends.[8] In times of trouble, instead of brooding on the issues, Jaehaerys would shrug off his sorrows and plunge himself into his work.[11][5] He never acted without thinking,[12] and did not trust in chance.[4] Nor did Jaehaerys like to make outright threats, but had other ways of making his disapproval felt. According to the Sealord of Braavos, Jaehaerys was very skillful in making veiled threats.[5]


You can hear some things there that sounds a bit like Jon, but the main difference is that Jaeharys was all about compromise.  He was known as "The Conciliator."  He was pragmatic.  He was also proud and severe.  He understood the need to command respect. 


Whereas Jon is quiet and self-effacing to the point of being almost meek, in some ways.  He makes no bones about the fact that he doesn't want power.

Jahaerys knew he was destined to be king from birth.  He was raised to the throne when he was still a child.  From the beginning he acted like a person who had spent a lot of time thinking about the fact that he would be king.  He embraced power, but seemed to recognize that the only way to keep it would be to not abuse it.

One way to put it might be that Jahaerys was always so secure in the knowledge of his own power that he didn't feel desperate to hoard it, flaunt it, or preemptively strike at those that might try to take it from him.


Jahaery's major defining actions were initially pardoning the lords that had sided with his predecessor, Maegor the cruel, and later undertaking to codify a set of laws to govern the entire seven kingdoms.



I'm not sure I see anybody in the current cast of characters who is really analogous to Jahaerys.
Jon was raised his life like he was a Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again..  His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone.  He was an after thought.  Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne.  I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1804 on: May 17, 2019, 12:41:58 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.


How would Bran end up being king?  He has no claim to the throne.
Ned's claim to the throne was basically as strong as Robert's, but Ned didn't want it and Robert did.  By that logic, if there are no Targ's then the sons of both Ned and Robert would have about an equal claim to the throne, which would put Bran around the same claim as Gendry (assuming you accept him as not a ****).  So if Dany and Jon are both out of the picture, Bran's claim might very well be the strongest one (since you know he wasn't a **** and presumably would have the support of the north).


Fair points.  I guess my hangup is that Bran is

(a) Weird to the point of being distinctly uncharismatic

and

(b) He's a cripple


It's pretty well established that Westerosi people expect their leaders to be robust and strong.  The ability to vindicate oneself in individual combat is something that comes up again and again in the history of Westerosi rulers.  Alternatively, a ruler can have a close companion who can fight on his or her behalf, i.e. a dragon, a Mountain, or some other kind of champion.  I'm not sure who Bran has. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1805 on: May 17, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jon was raised his life like he was a ****.  His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone.  He was an after thought.  Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne.  I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.


Probably, but that's not who he is.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1806 on: May 17, 2019, 12:47:14 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'm not sure I see anybody in the current cast of characters who is really analogous to Jahaerys.

Sounds like a more selfless and moral Tywin Lannister, or what Tyrion is probably supposed to have evolved into but has not been conveyed or depicted well in a long time. He wasn't raised to rule but the only one left who was is Dany.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 12:54:01 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1807 on: May 17, 2019, 12:47:39 PM »

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Jon will end up on the throne.  This has always been a story about him.  The only way he wouldn't have ended up on the throne would have been if he had to die to kill the Night King (and you know save humanity).  Even with as crappy as the last two seasons have been, I just can't believe they would get that wrong and frankly if Jon wasn't going to end up on the throne there would have been no reason for the super Mad Queen turn by Dany.


In what way?


If Game of Thrones has always been about anything, it's been about how the drive of certain people to gain and maintain power, be those people "good" or "bad," is inherently in conflict with the peace and happiness of people in general, and the impotence of "principled" or "moral" people to do much of anything to stop the chaos that results from the ruthless climbers' endless fighting for pole position.


In other words, "We can't have nice things."

Jon does have something that looks like a standard hero's journey, but so does Danaerys.  To me it's fairly obvious that they are meant to be two sides of the same coin in this story, and that the ways in which they are similar and the ways in which they are completely different serve to advance that main theme. 

It makes complete sense that Danaerys's drive for power would end up destroying the world instead of making it better, and that Jon's commitment to being "good" instead of seeking power for himself will prevent him from achieving happiness.  Maybe he will kill Danaerys and prevent a reign of terror, but it wouldn't make sense for him to become the "good wise king who rules for fifty years" at the end of it.


I expect that the story will end on a hopeful note, but I don't expect it to seem like things will all be good and well for our main characters for the rest of time, or that the world is in a much better position than it was at the beginning.  Except for the White Walkers having been defeated, I suppose.

I'm still not sure how the White Walkers or the Night King were supposed to fit into all of this.  Maybe the books will make that clearer.
The books are a called a Song of Fire and Ice.  Jon is both fire and ice by birth.  The prophecies littered throughout the book about the savior all directly apply to Jon much more so than anyone else.  He was supposed to be the person to save humanity (and yet they messed it up by having Arya do it).  In order to fulfill that prophecy to allow him to vanquish the Night King, he will have to kill his love (i.e. Dany).  The books are going to get to the ending in a much different way, but in that ending Jon will either die killing the Night King or end up on the throne.  That is how the books have been shaping up this whole time.  The other characters are all vessels or a means to reach that end.  Frankly, the books are in such a different place, I think they end up on vastly divergent paths from the show, but ultimately will have some of the themes from the show present. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1808 on: May 17, 2019, 12:48:49 PM »

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Jon was raised his life like he was a ****.  His "step mother" hated him and he was always looked down upon by everyone.  He was an after thought.  Imagine though if he had been raised his whole life like he was going to be heir to the throne.  I think you would have seen him turn out much more like Jahaery and would have had the desire and confidence needed to rule effectively.


Probably, but that's not who he is.
True, but he is 18 or whatever, I think he would get there and I do think he will step up at the end of the day because there isn't anyone else.  Jon cares and he will do the right thing. 
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1809 on: May 17, 2019, 12:50:46 PM »

Offline GreenShooter

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.


How would Bran end up being king?  He has no claim to the throne.
Bran doesn't really have a claim. He's the 3-eyed raven now. Since the Red Keep is demolished and once Drogon melts down the throne there will no longer be a "King". He'll just rule Westeros with a small council. He can't even have kids (unless he worgs a child lol) so there's that a well. Stupid ending but this is what can be expected with this show.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1810 on: May 17, 2019, 01:34:53 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The books are a called a Song of Fire and Ice.  Jon is both fire and ice by birth. 


Or .... Ice and Fire refers collectively to Jon Snow and Dany, the Dragon Queen who was basically reborn in the depths of fire.


The title is completely consistent with what I described, i.e. a saga of the rise and fall of BOTH Jon and Dany, and that the ending will see both of those characters die / fall short / recede and give way to a new status quo which won't be that different than what came before.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1811 on: May 17, 2019, 02:36:38 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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You might like this article BTW - it's about how the show got bad because after it outpaced the book it shifted from Martin's sociological focus to Hollywood's focus on individual characters and cinematic moments.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/


Thank you for sharing this.  I just read it and it's probably the best piece of writing I've read on the topic of where GoT has gone wrong.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1812 on: May 17, 2019, 04:09:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 04:16:13 PM by nickagneta »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1813 on: May 17, 2019, 04:19:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.

Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1814 on: May 17, 2019, 04:25:37 PM »

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Jon will not end up on the throne. He will kill Dany and refuse the "throne", unless Drogon melts it down, in which case there will not be one. He will go north and live with the "free folk" with Tormund and Ghost.
Somehow Bran will end up ruling Westeros. He did some sneaky sh!t that we'll finally get to find out in the finale.
This will be an effed up ending. I will watch it though, as I did the Sopranos. Some of you know how bizarre that ending was.
Looks like someone has seen the supposed spoilers on Reddit or around the internet.

Yeah I wasn't going to comment on that aspect of it.

Bran ruling would be as ridiculous as some of the other plot decisions that came out of nowhere, so sure, that makes sense.  A cripple with no allegiance from the populace who speaks in fragmented, cryptic sentences and doesn’t consider himself to be a human, and who has shown zero leadership, strategy, or desire to rule, would make a great king, at least until he was knifed 2 hours after being crowned.

I could see Jon leaving, but only if a firm plan that would sustain peace was in place.  King Bran wouldn’t really achieve that goal. 


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