nader is no james young-

[footey]

Nader looked good game one, awful game 2, and from what I have read, decent in game 3 (did not get to see it, not on NBA TV).

Not worthy of a separate thread discussion IMO.

[Eddie20]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

[Celtics4ever]

I thought last game he excelled cutting to the Basket.   He is not a natural one on one player and should avoid that but I did not mind him as a cutter.

My problem is more with him on D, he does not seem able to stay in front of a NBA player with any consistency.  His foot speed is not elite and he looks poor on D.

[rollie mass]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

Eddie -you know better than Brad who loves his defense, you keep saying no motor and a average athlete-from in front of your TV you make judgments you can't substantiate
Our guys outplayed the number 1 picks
Did you see Fultz take a foul shot-did you see Simmons or Fultz take a outside shot
i'd like to know your creds are except to take cheap shots at guys that get the most with what they got-
I used to go to the Boston Marathon not to cheer the winners but the runners who didn't quit,that weren't blessed with the body but had the will to complete. Some limping,some waddling in a pear shape bodies or painfully thin and in recovery,some so exhausted it was one foot after another or being propped up-faces etched in pain,nobody but a few cheering friends or family there at the finish-i was there out of respect-something you don't have
Brad mentioned how hard Nader and Semmi work-have you no shame or courage-
and don't presume to contact me again on my message board

[Eddie20]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

Eddie -you know better than Brad who loves his defense, you keep saying no motor and a average athlete-from in front of your TV you make judgments you can't substantiate
Our guys outplayed the number 1 picks
Did you see Fultz take a foul shot-did you see Simmons or Fultz take a outside shot
i'd like to know your creds are except to take cheap shots at guys that get the most with what they got-
I used to go to the Boston Marathon not to cheer the winners but the runners who didn't quit,that weren't blessed with the body but had the will to complete. Some limping,some waddling in a pear shape bodies or painfully thin and in recovery,some so exhausted it was one foot after another or being propped up-faces etched in pain,nobody but a few cheering friends or family there at the finish-i was there out of respect-something you don't have
Brad mentioned how hard Nader and Semmi work-have you no shame or courage-
and don't presume to contact me again on my message board

Wait, what?

Rollie, you simply don't appear to be a very lucid or rational individual with the bolded comments above simply because I'm critical of below average NBA players. So what are the ground rules, so I and others know what we're dealing with? Am I okay to critique other players or is it just these 2 that draws your ire?

[mmmmm]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

I don't get why you keep pounding on Nader being "shoot first" and "a black hole".    Are you only going by the tiny less-than-50-minute sample of pre-season here?

The kid averaged just a hair under 4 assists per game in 33.5 mpg in the D-League in a far-more-significant 1332 minutes of play.   For a scoring-forward, that's a pretty healthy assist number.   Sure, the level of competition is less, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly passed the ball to others at a healthy rate for a small foward. 

In the D-League playoffs, he played another 192.8 minutes and dished out assists at an even much higher rate, 4.6 assists on 38.5 mpg.   Overall, for both the regular season and playoffs, he had an AST% of over 20%.  That's a very good number for someone who isn't a point-guard.

I am guessing that 1500+ minutes is a better representation of what his overall play-style is than the tiny handful of minutes he's played in the pre-season so far is.

Just for stylistic comparison, Paul Pierce, who was an excellent facilitator for a scoring forward, averaged 3.5 assists on 34.2 mpg for his career (an AST% rate of 18.7%).

It's certainly fair to wonder if Nader's overall talent is good enough to get him any minutes on a roster with this much wing depth.   But I think your particular criticism of him as a "shoot first / never pass" guy is very odd, not particularly relevant (he's a scoring forward, not a point guard) and not particularly well supported by the most recent large sample of his play style.

[Phantom255x]

I thought last game he excelled cutting to the Basket.   He is not a natural one on one player and should avoid that but I did not mind him as a cutter.

My problem is more with him on D, he does not seem able to stay in front of a NBA player with any consistency.  His foot speed is not elite and he looks poor on D.

LaVar Ball agrees with this.

[Eddie20]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

I don't get why you keep pounding on Nader being "shoot first" and "a black hole".    Are you only going by the tiny less-than-50-minute sample of pre-season here?

The kid averaged just a hair under 4 assists per game in 33.5 mpg in the D-League in a far-more-significant 1332 minutes of play.   For a scoring-forward, that's a pretty healthy assist number.   Sure, the level of competition is less, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly passed the ball to others at a healthy rate for a small foward. 

In the D-League playoffs, he played another 192.8 minutes and dished out assists at an even much higher rate, 4.6 assists on 38.5 mpg.   Overall, for both the regular season and playoffs, he had an AST% of over 20%.  That's a very good number for someone who isn't a point-guard.

I am guessing that 1500+ minutes is a better representation of what his overall play-style is than the tiny handful of minutes he's played in the pre-season so far is.

Just for stylistic comparison, Paul Pierce, who was an excellent facilitator for a scoring forward, averaged 3.5 assists on 34.2 mpg for his career (an AST% rate of 18.7%).

It's certainly fair to wonder if Nader's overall talent is good enough to get him any minutes on a roster with this much wing depth.   But I think your particular criticism of him as a "shoot first / never pass" guy is very odd, not particularly relevant (he's a scoring forward, not a point guard) and not particularly well supported by the most recent large sample of his play style.

I place very little emphasis in the D-League as evidenced by Vander Blue being league MVP and Fab Melo having double digit blocks in a few games. I base my opinion on what I see this pre-season and during the past 2 summer leagues.

That said, I like to see a player perform at this level and play effectively within the scope of the offense. This means sharing the ball, driving and kicking, etc. This does not mean shooting the ball every time it's swung your way. Especially for a marginal talent like Nader.

This pre-season:

Player - Minutes - Field Goal Attempts - Assists

Nader 50 - 25 - 3
Baynes 42 - 13 - 4
Brown  63 - 28 - 5
Hayward  40 -15 - 6
Irving  44 - 25 - 6
Horford 35 - 14 - 7
Larkin 42 - 18 - 5
Ojeleye 63 - 18 - 0
Rozier 61 - 22 -10
Smart 51 - 22 - 6
Tatum 78 - 26 - 7
Theis 49 - 20 - 4
Yabusele 52 - 13 - 0

So in a per-minute basis Nader is shooting more than every player on our team except for Irving and averaging more assists than only Semi and Yabu, 2 players that aren't good ballhandlers or handle the ball much.

[mainevent]

I'm with Eddie on this one. "To Me" Nader is definitely an end of the bench person.  I'd even stick him back in the G league until he learns to play unselfishly.  He was ball dominant in Maine last year as well. His problem is he thinks he's better than he really is and it annoys the heck out of me that he wants to be 'the man' so bad that he just can't bring himself to make the right play when he has the ball.  He reminds me of Randle in LA...superstars in their own minds! With that being said, he is active on O and instead of running to a corner like Jimmy used to do and hanging out till the ball comes his way, he's constantly in motion.  His D is way below average.  Hopefully he'll only see the floor in garbage time. 

FWIW he is the only one on this roster I have a negative opinion on.

[Ogaju]

WE NEED versatility and an aggressive offense minded player like Nader has a place on this roster I remember when posters blamed KO for being too tentative.

[mmmmm]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

I don't get why you keep pounding on Nader being "shoot first" and "a black hole".    Are you only going by the tiny less-than-50-minute sample of pre-season here?

The kid averaged just a hair under 4 assists per game in 33.5 mpg in the D-League in a far-more-significant 1332 minutes of play.   For a scoring-forward, that's a pretty healthy assist number.   Sure, the level of competition is less, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly passed the ball to others at a healthy rate for a small foward. 

In the D-League playoffs, he played another 192.8 minutes and dished out assists at an even much higher rate, 4.6 assists on 38.5 mpg.   Overall, for both the regular season and playoffs, he had an AST% of over 20%.  That's a very good number for someone who isn't a point-guard.

I am guessing that 1500+ minutes is a better representation of what his overall play-style is than the tiny handful of minutes he's played in the pre-season so far is.

Just for stylistic comparison, Paul Pierce, who was an excellent facilitator for a scoring forward, averaged 3.5 assists on 34.2 mpg for his career (an AST% rate of 18.7%).

It's certainly fair to wonder if Nader's overall talent is good enough to get him any minutes on a roster with this much wing depth.   But I think your particular criticism of him as a "shoot first / never pass" guy is very odd, not particularly relevant (he's a scoring forward, not a point guard) and not particularly well supported by the most recent large sample of his play style.

I place very little emphasis in the D-League as evidenced by Vander Blue being league MVP and Fab Melo having double digit blocks in a few games. I base my opinion on what I see this pre-season and during the past 2 summer leagues.

That said, I like to see a player perform at this level and play effectively within the scope of the offense. This means sharing the ball, driving and kicking, etc. This does not mean shooting the ball every time it's swung your way. Especially for a marginal talent like Nader.
...

So, basically, you believe a tiny sample of 50 minutes (where he is clearly playing a role lower on the totem pole and under specific constraints on what he is supposed to do) is more indicative of the style of player he is than 1500 minutes (of him playing a more prominent role with more control over what he did on the floor)?  Logical.

Dismiss the level of competition of the D-League all you want (though why you would put _any_ more weight on the Summer League defies logic), how does that account for the stylistic point? 

Again, I'm not going to make out Nader to be a rotation level NBA player.  I just think you have latched onto a particular criticism that is not really founded in anything but cherry picking and confirmation bias.

[Eddie20]

I don't like Nader's game. The guy is a shoot first player that thinks pass as a mere afterthought. It's hard to get excited about him when you consider he's also weak defensively, relatively old, and average athletically.

I don't get why you keep pounding on Nader being "shoot first" and "a black hole".    Are you only going by the tiny less-than-50-minute sample of pre-season here?

The kid averaged just a hair under 4 assists per game in 33.5 mpg in the D-League in a far-more-significant 1332 minutes of play.   For a scoring-forward, that's a pretty healthy assist number.   Sure, the level of competition is less, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly passed the ball to others at a healthy rate for a small foward. 

In the D-League playoffs, he played another 192.8 minutes and dished out assists at an even much higher rate, 4.6 assists on 38.5 mpg.   Overall, for both the regular season and playoffs, he had an AST% of over 20%.  That's a very good number for someone who isn't a point-guard.

I am guessing that 1500+ minutes is a better representation of what his overall play-style is than the tiny handful of minutes he's played in the pre-season so far is.

Just for stylistic comparison, Paul Pierce, who was an excellent facilitator for a scoring forward, averaged 3.5 assists on 34.2 mpg for his career (an AST% rate of 18.7%).

It's certainly fair to wonder if Nader's overall talent is good enough to get him any minutes on a roster with this much wing depth.   But I think your particular criticism of him as a "shoot first / never pass" guy is very odd, not particularly relevant (he's a scoring forward, not a point guard) and not particularly well supported by the most recent large sample of his play style.

I place very little emphasis in the D-League as evidenced by Vander Blue being league MVP and Fab Melo having double digit blocks in a few games. I base my opinion on what I see this pre-season and during the past 2 summer leagues.

That said, I like to see a player perform at this level and play effectively within the scope of the offense. This means sharing the ball, driving and kicking, etc. This does not mean shooting the ball every time it's swung your way. Especially for a marginal talent like Nader.
...

So, basically, you believe a tiny sample of 50 minutes (where he is clearly playing a role lower on the totem pole and under specific constraints on what he is supposed to do) is more indicative of the style of player he is than 1500 minutes (of him playing a more prominent role with more control over what he did on the floor)?  Logical.

Dismiss the level of competition of the D-League all you want (though why you would put _any_ more weight on the Summer League defies logic), how does that account for the stylistic point? 

Again, I'm not going to make out Nader to be a rotation level NBA player.  I just think you have latched onto a particular criticism that is not really founded in anything but cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Of course its logical because in the D-League he handled the ball the majority of the time/facilitied offense and didn't have to play off teammates. It's different in the NBA where he actually has to adapt to a team and have a specific role while going up against the best players in the world. Just like Rozier was able to excel playing the PG in the D-League, but doesn't have the court vision or passing skills to play the position at the NBA level.

Yes, the talent in summer league is better than that in D-League. You have players sprinkled in throughout  the majority of teams that will never sniff a minute of D-League. So while Nader can be the man in the D-League, he had to pay off of Rozier and Brown last year, and Brown and Tatum this season.

Is your argument that your dismissive of what you've seen so far in the preseason and Nader doesn't shoot a lot? If that's the case then so be it. The board is going in a really weird direction with the constant threads overrating some of the worst players in the league, case in point is the one discussing Semi vs Tatum.

[Beat LA]

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

So you don't believe that the ability to defend and shoot qualify as NBA skills.  Interesting.

[Eddie20]

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

So you don't believe that the ability to defend and shoot qualify as NBA skills.  Interesting.

He can shoot wide open 3's with his feet set, but would you be willing to say he's an above average NBA shooter? Just like his defense. I mean it's not bad, but is it really above average?

[Beat LA]

As for Semi, I'm not sure what he does that's well at an NBA level. I know he can shoot a little bit when he's wide open and his feet are set, but he lacks a motor, has zero ballhandling, and doesn't rebound. I also think he's also an average athlete. I know the combine stats say otherwise, but athleticism isn't a strength.

There really isn't much to either player. Dime a dozen type talent levels that I will be completely shocked if they see the end of their current deals.

So you don't believe that the ability to defend and shoot qualify as NBA skills.  Interesting.

He can shoot wide open 3's with his feet set, but would you be willing to say he's an above average NBA shooter? Just like his defense. I mean it's not bad, but is it really above average?

I'm not sure, but given that Jaylen Brown's offensive opportunities during his rookie year were limited to spot up shooting, as well as transition opportunities, obviously, and posting up - which Semi can also do, btw - I'd like to think that he'd perform well - and who knows, perhaps even better than Brown - given that shooting is one of Ojeleye's strengths.  As it's been noted on here in the past, the guy was the best pick-and-pop player in the country last year, but more than that, he had probably a top five midrange game in his class, as well, (the only players with a better percentage from that distance, I believe, were Markelle Fultz, at 43.8, and Antonius Cleveland, at an absurd 45.8 clip), making 41.2 percent of his attempts from that range, so it's not like he's just a stand alone three point shooter like Danny Green, and in terms of his defense it looks like he can play right away and guard a host of different players, which is probably the only way that he'll get on the court for this team, if he does, at all.  I just hope that if that turns out to be the case that they don't simply relegate him to standing at the 3 point line, as that would take away from his post game and the ability to get to the line, both of which would be welcome additions to our otherwise perimeter attack, but we'll see what happens.