Can We Be Done With This Big Starting Lineup?

[Big333223]

Theis isn't comfortable at PF and it's not working, offensively or defensively. The C's looked good against Memphis with a smaller starting 5 and then came out with their worst start of the year against another bad team going back to the two bigs.

Maybe start Teague. Grant could start at the 4, which is kind of a big lineup but he's a more natural 4 than Theis. I might even throw Nesmith into the fire and start him with a short leash just to see how he responds.

Whatever it is, I don't think it can be Theis and Thompson together on the regular.

[W8ting2McHale]

I’d rather see our old pal Kelly Olynyk playing the 4 than Theis at this point, with Thompson inside. His defense would suck, but he can at least pass and be a threat from 3, and his roll game is at least on Theis’ level. It would be nice to have someone taller than 6’-9” on the floor too, even if he has 6’-9” arms.

[NKY fan]

Theis isn't comfortable at PF and it's not working, offensively or defensively. The C's looked good against Memphis with a smaller starting 5 and then came out with their worst start of the year against another bad team going back to the two bigs.

Maybe start Teague. Grant could start at the 4, which is kind of a big lineup but he's a more natural 4 than Theis. I might even throw Nesmith into the fire and start him with a short leash just to see how he responds.

Whatever it is, I don't think it can be Theis and Thompson together on the regular.

So start Teague , Nesmith and Grant ?
The Js coming off the bench? Lol

[SCeltic34]

This has been my biggest complaint about Stevens this season.  I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know better than he does, but I also don't see how he can justify continuing the TT & Theis starting combo.  Though limited in sample size, the advanced stats match the eye test.  It's not working.

According to basketball reference, the lineup of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Theis, and Thompson per 100 possessions is:

- Being outscored by 18.1 points
- Has a -.137 eFG% when compared to their opponents
- At -9.1 assists
- At +3.4 turnovers

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2021/lineups/

Two things they're doing better than their opponents with this lineup is rebounding (both O and D) and free throw attempts.  But this clearly does not offset the negatives.  There's not enough playmaking nor shooting.  The numbers don't lie.

The data also support how good we look with Timelord on the floor, and how bad we look when GWill is out there.  Correlates with the eye test.  Not sure why Timelord isn't getting more minutes (injury last night aside).

I'd like to also add that Stevens' rotation decisions last night against Detroit were beyond awful.  Coming back out with TT & Theis after a TO in the 1st quarter after the starting lineup clearly wasn't getting it done was not a good decision.  The Smart, Teague, and Edwards combo was a headscratcher (along with GWill and Timelord) - is this lineup supposed to get things done?  Why not have at least 1 of Brown or Tatum on the floor at all times?  12 points in the first 14 minutes of the game is all the evidence you need.  And then the GWill sub in for Teague towards the end of the game was just a terrible decision.  Teague was giving us good minutes.  The players deserve a ton of blame (if not most of it) - missed a lot of free throws, sloppy turnovers, failure to make a bucket in crunch time.  But Brad did not coach a good game at all.

TLDR: Stop the TT & Theis starting combo.  Brad needs to make better rotation decisions.

[nickagneta]

So many Celtics fans across the blogosphere have clamored for Brad Stevens to play a two big lineup for years. The desire to put up traditional lineups seemed to be the move that would correct all that ailed the team over the last couple years.

But the reality is that Brad's starting lineups with just one big were extremely good 5 man units on both sides of the ball. Rather than trying to react to what other teams were playing, Brad preferred to run his three wing lineups and make other teams adjust to the Celtics.

Whether the lineup had the Hayward/Tatum/Brown wing unit or the Tatum/Brown/Smart wing unit, the team thrived. Most NBA teams just didn't have the two way quality that Boston had in those positions and with quality score first PGs, they were a tough team to beat or put away.

Yes, Hayward is gone and Kemba hurt, so the current team isn't playing nearly as well, but in limited games and minutes, the one big units definitely appear to be better offensively and defensively, using a three wing concept that puts Tatum, Brown and Smart in their natural positions where they can excel.

To me, the two big starting lineup with Thompson and Theis is a massive fail. Theis just isn't comfortable playing the four and playing on the perimeter. He is a undersized center, not a power forward, and he excels at center, as last year showed. He is just a much better player on both sides of the ball when he is doing center type things.

The offense is also pretty lousy with three non-scorers in the starting lineup. Smart can be a playmaker but without another primary ballhandler like Kemba, the current starting unit gets bogged down offensively. Brown and Tatum are developing their playmaking abilities, but just aren't there yet, therefore, it behooves Stevens to get another ballhandler/playmaker into the starting unit and try to go with way more PG/3 wing/center units throughout the game.

I think it's time to admit Stevens concept of one big was the concept this collection of players would best thrive in. Time to stop the experimenting with two bigs with limited offensive abilities and maximize their chances of producing mismatches they can take advantage of with their three wing units.

[Somebody]

To be fair most of us wanted a two big lineup when Horford was our starting C and was mobile enough to defend big forwards, but yeah it doesn't make sense to start two big men when neither of them can facilitate in the high post and be a volume shooting threat.

[colincb]

So many Celtics fans across the blogosphere have clamored for Brad Stevens to play a two big lineup for years. The desire to put up traditional lineups seemed to be the move that would correct all that ailed the team over the last couple years.

But the reality is that Brad's starting lineups with just one big were extremely good 5 man units on both sides of the ball. Rather than trying to react to what other teams were playing, Brad preferred to run his three wing lineups and make other teams adjust to the Celtics.

Whether the lineup had the Hayward/Tatum/Brown wing unit or the Tatum/Brown/Smart wing unit, the team thrived. Most NBA teams just didn't have the two way quality that Boston had in those positions and with quality score first PGs, they were a tough team to beat or put away.

Yes, Hayward is gone and Kemba hurt, so the current team isn't playing nearly as well, but in limited games and minutes, the one big units definitely appear to be better offensively and defensively, using a three wing concept that puts Tatum, Brown and Smart in their natural positions where they can excel.

To me, the two big starting lineup with Thompson and Theis is a massive fail. Theis just isn't comfortable playing the four and playing on the perimeter. He is a undersized center, not a power forward, and he excels at center, as last year showed. He is just a much better player on both sides of the ball when he is doing center type things.

The offense is also pretty lousy with three non-scorers in the starting lineup. Smart can be a playmaker but without another primary ballhandler like Kemba, the current starting unit gets bogged down offensively. Brown and Tatum are developing their playmaking abilities, but just aren't there yet, therefore, it behooves Stevens to get another ballhandler/playmaker into the starting unit and try to go with way more PG/3 wing/center units throughout the game.

I think it's time to admit Stevens concept of one big was the concept this collection of players would best thrive in. Time to stop the experimenting with two bigs with limited offensive abilities and maximize their chances of producing mismatches they can take advantage of with their three wing units.

Very good summary of the problem.

Last year we had two or more facilitators in the starting lineup between GH, KW, and MS.

Now it's one.

[cltc5]

Why isn’t theis a stretch 4?  Are we proposing go back to small ball because that’s the option

[RodyTur10]

This starting line-up unfortunately really doesn't seem to be working. Our roster is out of balance.

If we change the starting line-up and play Robert Williams solid minutes as our back-up center as we should (he looks pretty good) it creates an awkward situation. We may have games where Pritchard, Teague and Ojeleye all play 20+ minutes, while Theis is glued down to the bench (Poirier role). That will not sit well with a guy who was a starter last year and he will see himself as a victim of the system and roster changes.

Solution: trade Theis(+) for a shooter and sign a 3rd string center for the minimum (options: O'Quinn, Henson, Dedmon).

[colincb]

Why isn’t theis a stretch 4?  Are we proposing go back to small ball because that’s the option

Theis can't shoot from distance. Last year Tatum was our stretch-4.

In a revised lineup, TT would start along with JT, JB, MS, and a PG.

Start DT at center for small ball units.

[RodyTur10]

To be fair most of us wanted a two big lineup when Horford was our starting C and was mobile enough to defend big forwards, but yeah it doesn't make sense to start two big men when neither of them can facilitate in the high post and be a volume shooting threat.

Yeah, Horford/Baynes was a combo that did work on both ends of the court.

Thompson (needs a rim protector) and Theis (needs a rebounder) both need inside help, but they're not comfortable playing together unfortunately. The roster is messy. They're both good role players and should get a decent portion of minutes, but you have a young hungry back-up center in Robert Williams on the edge of breaking through too. Hard to manage that.

Theis has been terrible so far and clearly worse than Thompson and Williams, so he should be the victim of becoming the 3rd string center and only playing garbage or injury fill in minutes. That would be hard for him to swallow after being a starter last year.

From back-up -> starter -> 3rd stringer is hard to cope with even for a professional like Daniel Theis. His future probably lies elsewhere.

[Who]

Why isn’t theis a stretch 4?  Are we proposing go back to small ball because that’s the option

Lack of volume as an outside shooter.

He will take a small number of outside shots but enough to damage opposing teams.

There is a big difference between a guy who will take 4-5 three pointers a game or 1-2 three point attempts per game. And then the top guys who can take 6-8 three pointers a game. You need that volume to keep defenses on their toes. Theis does not provide that. He is too shy -- too reluctant to shoot. Will only shoot when he is WIDE open. Needs lots of time and space.

Theis also has below average ball-handling and passing as well as outside shooting & shot creation relative to the PFs of today's NBA (mostly combo forwards and SFs).

[Who]

Yes. It deserves the quick hook. Normally one would like to give a lineup 10+ games to evaluate but this one is so dysfunctional that it doesn't need that time period.

Heck, this was clear as night and day from the 2 preseason games. CBS should have stopped this long before now.

Stubbornness can be a good quality in a leader at times but he is letting this situation get the best of him.

[Who]

This starting line-up unfortunately really doesn't seem to be working. Our roster is out of balance.

If we change the starting line-up and play Robert Williams solid minutes as our back-up center as we should (he looks pretty good) it creates an awkward situation. We may have games where Pritchard, Teague and Ojeleye all play 20+ minutes, while Theis is glued down to the bench (Poirier role). That will not sit well with a guy who was a starter last year and he will see himself as a victim of the system and roster changes.

Solution: trade Theis(+) for a shooter and sign a 3rd string center for the minimum (options: O'Quinn, Henson, Dedmon).

Trading Theis (or one of the other bigs) for a SF/PF is well worth looking into. This team needs more quality depth at those positions. Let Semi move back to his 3rd string role where he best suited.

Not to derail the thread but Kaminsky would've been a good pickup to allow Ainge to trade one of those 3 centers. Kaminsky getting a few minutes on the 5-1 Phoenix Suns although he hasn't contributed much thus far. I'd like to see him solidify himself as Ayton's main backup as the season goes on.

Edit: Wait, those three guys - they are FAs? Dedmon is a FA? He was unsigned? How did that happen? He would be a good pickup (as 3rd stringer / R.Williams injury insurance) if Ainge could find a good Theis trade.

[Who]

I want to see a PG put into that starting lineup at the expense of one of the big men with Smart sliding over to SG to provide secondary ball-handling & passing along with some perimeter shooting.

I would start Pritchard and keep Teague to run the second unit. Teague's experience would better benefit that inexperienced offensively limited group of players than Pritchard could. While Pritchard can blend in next to Smart, Tatum and Jaylen just fine as a starter.