Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed

[crownsy]

The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.

It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

That isn't true at all. They didn't have a ton of other options or they wouldn't have signed TA. He was the best available to them that would sign. The other guys that were better decided to go elsewhere for either more money or other reasons. They ONLY signed TA because they had no other choice.

how do you know that EJ? throughout the offseason, guys were being brought in, worked out, and going back to the airport with no contract, we had a discussion about a diffrent guy everyday who came in during the offseason.

your assumption that we had no other options and settled on TA (patently false) is based on your own assumption that all our options were persued by the celtics (which none of us know or don't know, thier were plenty of SG's/wings around, many of whom worked out for or were scouted by danny) evaluated to be better than TA (another assumption in your argument) and then signed away from us by other teams (again, another assumption)

[Chris]

The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.

It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

That isn't true at all. They didn't have a ton of other options or they wouldn't have signed TA. He was the best available to them that would sign. The other guys that were better decided to go elsewhere for either more money or other reasons. They ONLY signed TA because they had no other choice.

how do you know that EJ? throughout the offseason, guys were being brought in, worked out, and going back to the airport with no contract, we had a discussion about a diffrent guy everyday who came in during the offseason.

your assumption that we had no other options and settled on TA (patently false) is based on your own assumption that all our options were persued by the celtics (which none of us know or don't know, thier were plenty of SG's/wings around, many of whom worked out for or were scouted by danny) evaluated to be better than TA (another assumption in your argument) and then signed away from us by other teams (again, another assumption)

There is some truth to what both of you are saying, but I think the real reason Allen was signed over some of the other options is that it was determined that they were all on relatively even footing, with no one head and shoulders above another, but Allen was the only guy they could sign without reaching into their MLE or LLE.

[EJPLAYA]

The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.

It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

That isn't true at all. They didn't have a ton of other options or they wouldn't have signed TA. He was the best available to them that would sign. The other guys that were better decided to go elsewhere for either more money or other reasons. They ONLY signed TA because they had no other choice.

how do you know that EJ? throughout the offseason, guys were being brought in, worked out, and going back to the airport with no contract, we had a discussion about a diffrent guy everyday who came in during the offseason.

your assumption that we had no other options and settled on TA (patently false) is based on your own assumption that all our options were persued by the celtics (which none of us know or don't know, thier were plenty of SG's/wings around, many of whom worked out for or were scouted by danny) evaluated to be better than TA (another assumption in your argument) and then signed away from us by other teams (again, another assumption)

What I am saying, is that they weren't all hot over signing TA. If they were committed to him they would have picked up his option and guaranteed he would be with us. They also would have tried to sign him at the first. They didn't do that either, unless they threw a low ball out at him that he didn't want. They wanted others like Posey that signed for more cash. Maggette that signed elsewhere, Kareem Rush signed elsewhere, Pietrus signed elsewhere, Ruben Patterson, Matt Barnes, etc... All of these guys IMO and most of them in anyone's opinion were better than signing TA, but we didn't have the chance to, or weren't willing to put up the cash to. That left us with TA. Not becuase Danny wanted him, but that he was as good or better than that next tier and he knew the system.

[crownsy]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

[EJPLAYA]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

So what you are telling me is that Danny wanted TA over Maggette. Which of those guys below do you think are worse players than TA?

[crownsy]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

So what you are telling me is that Danny wanted TA over Maggette. Which of those guys below do you think are worse players than TA?

corey wasen't a reasonable option, despite rumors floated by his agent. he signed for well over the MLE.

I'm sure danny also wanted elton brand, but since were not allowed to break open the salary cap and make a run at guys we can't afford.

[Chris]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

So what you are telling me is that Danny wanted TA over Maggette. Which of those guys below do you think are worse players than TA?

corey wasen't a reasonable option, despite rumors floated by his agent. he signed for well over the MLE.

I'm sure danny also wanted elton brand, but since were not allowed to break open the salary cap and make a run at guys we can't afford.

If the Warriors hadn't lost Davis and panicked, there was a very good chance that Maggette was going to sign for the MLE somewhere.

[EJPLAYA]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

So what you are telling me is that Danny wanted TA over Maggette. Which of those guys below do you think are worse players than TA?

corey wasen't a reasonable option, despite rumors floated by his agent. he signed for well over the MLE.

I'm sure danny also wanted elton brand, but since were not allowed to break open the salary cap and make a run at guys we can't afford.

Matt Barnes and Kareem Rush both signed for 800k. Patterson didn't sign at all. Give me Matt Barnes any day over TA. You failed to address which of those guys that we did have a shot at signing you wouldn't have rather had over TA.

[moiso]

Barnes is the only one out of that group I would take over TA.  Or Chris Andersen if we went big.

[crownsy]

that was addressed, they though 3 million was overpriced (they were right) but they told TA early on that if they couldn't resign posey, he was thier go to choice if he didn't get a high offer.

Ta said he understood, and once the posey deal fell through, they went to thier backup plan (TA)

While it was tough, Celtics general manager Danny Ainge was honest with Allen about the situation.

"I look at him like he's my buddy rather than looking at it like a business-type proposition," Allen said about Ainge. "He was the first person that drafted me and he's been in my ear the whole four years I've been here. He told me what the deal was."

Ainge told a similar story.

"I was just very up front and explained the situation from the beginning," he said. "It wasn't easy for him or easy for us."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/07/unquestionably_allen_is_glad_to_be_back/


now is danny feeding TA a line thier to keep him from taking other teams offers? mabey, but i think it shows a bigger commitment than

"oh wow, no one is around, i guess we'll take TA back."

So what you are telling me is that Danny wanted TA over Maggette. Which of those guys below do you think are worse players than TA?

corey wasen't a reasonable option, despite rumors floated by his agent. he signed for well over the MLE.

I'm sure danny also wanted elton brand, but since were not allowed to break open the salary cap and make a run at guys we can't afford.

Matt Barnes and Kareem Rush both signed for 800k. Patterson didn't sign at all. Give me Matt Barnes any day over TA. You failed to address which of those guys that we did have a shot at signing you wouldn't have rather had over TA.

what does that have to do with the point of my orginal post?

would i have rather had barnes? you bet.

But my title doesn't read "General manager- boston celtics"

Nor do i pretend to be privy to his decision making process. the point was that Danny clearly values TA, and that they looked at alot of options.

We didn't get "stuck" with TA, or at least there is no rational evidance of that.

[Chris]

Nor do i pretend to be privy to his decision making process. the point was that Danny clearly values TA, and that they looked at alot of options.

We didn't get "stuck" with TA, or at least there is no rational evidance of that.

Nor are you privy to what contract it would have taken to lure Barnes back east.

[crownsy]

Nor do i pretend to be privy to his decision making process. the point was that Danny clearly values TA, and that they looked at alot of options.

We didn't get "stuck" with TA, or at least there is no rational evidance of that.

Nor are you privy to what contract it would have taken to lure Barnes back east.

right, but again, what on earth does that have to do with my original post chris?

my original point was that none (myself included) knows what went on in the offseason behind the scenes, so the original post I qouted by EJ based on pure assumption about how TA was our last option and we got stuck with him despite our best efforts, and everyone on the celtics mangment staff is aware of how bad he is is false.

[EJPLAYA]

Nor do i pretend to be privy to his decision making process. the point was that Danny clearly values TA, and that they looked at alot of options.

We didn't get "stuck" with TA, or at least there is no rational evidance of that.

Nor are you privy to what contract it would have taken to lure Barnes back east.

right, but again, what on earth does that have to do with my original post chris?

my original point was that none (myself included) knows what went on in the offseason behind the scenes, so the original post I qouted by EJ based on pure assumption about how TA was our last option and we got stuck with him despite our best efforts, and everyone on the celtics mangment staff is aware of how bad he is is false.

Then we should eliminate every thread in this entire blog, because almost everything on here is speculation. Why even bother then. I am using what transpired, what actual events unfolded in the order that they did to make that statement. If what you quoted Danny as saying in the media was completely accurate, then he wouldn't have brought anyone else in for workouts, he would have been sitting there waiting on Posey's decision and inked him immediately. Instead he waited another entire week to do it. Don't tell me he wasn't spending the few days after Posey signed calling up all the agents of these other guys. TP to you crownsy for continuing to try and enlighten me!!

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

So let's take a look at Tony Allen facts:

As already provided by Roy Hobbs

Stats per 36 minutes

04-05: 14.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.5 fg%, 38.7 3pt%, 2.2 tpg, 4.5 pf
05-06: 13.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.1 fg%, 32.4 3pt%, 2.5 tpg, 4.6 pf
06-07: 16.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.2 spg,  0.5 bpg,51.4 fg%, 24.2 3pt%, 3.4 tpg, 3.9 pf
07-08: 13.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.6 bpg, 43.6 fg%, 31.6 3pt%, 2.9 tpg, 4.4 pf
08-09: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 fg%, 16.7 3pt%, 3.1 tpg, 4.0 pf

These are the per game stats for his career:

               G   MIN   FG%   FT% REB  AST  TO  PTS
04-05  77   16.4   .475    .737   2.9    0.8   1.0   6.4
05-06  51   19.2   .471    .746   2.1    1.3   1.3   7.2
06-07  31   24.4   .514    .784   3.8    1.7   2.3   11.5
07-08  75   18.3   .434    .762   2.3    1.5   1.5   6.6
08-09  30   19.9   .474    .718   2.1    1.2   1.7   8.1

Without making comments about these numbers they are all simply facts.

He injured himself in the summer of 2005 and missed all of November and December of 2005 and started the 05-06 season on January 6th of 2006.

On January 10th of 2007, in the final minutes of a Celtics loss to the Indiana Pacers, Allen suffered a debilitating knee injury as he landed awkwardly after an uncontested slam dunk attempt after the whistle was blown, tearing both the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL). Allen underwent a successful ACL reconstructive surgery on January 13 at New England Baptist Hospital[9] and was sidelined for the rest of the season.

Allen has been primarily a bench player starting games only when other players were hurt although a rare start not necessitated by other injured players did occur.

Allen played his first year for a good but not championship caliber Boston Celtics team, his next two years for bad Boston Celtics teams and his last season and a third for the best team in the NBA.

In the two years Tony Allen played for playoff teams his usage was shortened greatly as compared to his regular season use that year.

Now all these are facts. There's no getting around them. But how do we interpret them?

That's a pretty good start, Nick, but limited.  I'd like to see some other stats, such as Holliger's PER, overall +/-, Net PER (TA's fifth on the team, currently) for the last 4 years before we start the interpretation.  There are probably some other good statistic measurements that I'm forgetting.  Regardless, we need ALL the facts if we want to interpret them correctly.  And we all might need a refresher course on what all those stats are measuring, because it's easy to get lost in the numbers sometimes.  This might take all season.

Oh, and as far as usage in the playoffs is concerned, I think we know why he played less in those two playoffs.  In 2004, he was a rookie and Doc got cold feet about playing him, even though he was the better option at 2 guard against Reggie.  As for last year, we all know that too: TA was still not mentally prepared to lay it on the line, suffering as he was from the emotional effects of his knee injury.  That, and some guy named James Posey who got all the wing minutes, not to mention the fact that rotations are tightened in the playoffs and TA hadn't earned his spot in that tightened rotation. 

Just so that we are clear, all I stated was the fact that he played less minutes. I never speculated as to the reasons why, that is your own doing SalmonandMashed.

All I said was fact, he played less minutes in the playoffs the two years his teams made it to the playoffs than he did the regular season. The same way I can say that he has had only one season where he had more assists than turnovers and that was last year when he had 114 assists to 109 turnovers. Every other year he has not had more assists than turnovers.

It's the same way I can statistically state that out of all the shooting guards that play more than 15 MPG, Tony Allen has the 5th lowest assist to turnover ratio in the league at 0.72 and is consistently amongst the bottom ten in this category for shooting guards since he entered the league.

I'm not drawing conclusions from those facts, just stating them, people can draw their own conclusions.

Net PER per position:
                    PG        SG        SF         PF
2004-05  +1.8     +1.3       +22.9     N/A
2005-06   -0.9      -5.1        0.0        N/A
2006-07    0.0     +1.2       +3.0      -50.0 
2007-08   -8.8     +2.7       -6.2        0.0
2008-09    0.0     +2.1       -3.0        N/A

Good stuff Nick, thanks for pulling up the net PER stats.  TA's net PER is still 5th best on the team, not bad for a bench player.  To judge the meaningfulness of a stat, it's often helpful to place it in the context of what everyone else on the team is doing.  5th best net PER pretty much settles the argument of who is currently the bench's best player, doesn't it (I took that stat from 82games.com)?  Powe is close, Eddie a little further back, but TA, with the best net PER, scoring average, and steals per game of any bench player, is currently our best bench player, right?  If you can agree with that statement, then it's hard to understand all the hubbub about TA....I mean, if you want to improve the bench, you start with improving the players around the bench's best player, right?  Shouldn't we be having 15-page threads about Eddie or Powe?

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

The bottom line is that Tony is an intregal part to both a championship and a 28-4 team.  I've got to believe that coaching and management sees a lot in Tony for that to be the case.

That's not completely true.

Tony is an integral part of a 28-4 team yes, but not a championship team. He's one of the best bench players on what is a sub par bench. That's not much of an achievement.

The Coaching staff is well aware of Tony's strength's and weaknesses. My guess is that they put him out there hoping for the best, it's not like they have much of a choice.

It is completly true that they had a ton of other options (including overpaying for posey) and instead chose to stick with TA and a new contract, so clearly someone in the celtics player managment divsion has a pretty high opnion of his abilities that some of us seem not to share.

While that may be true, it's also true that those same talent evaluators were perfectly happy to let Tony walk away, declining to extend him a qualifying offer to retain his services.  Just because Tony was rated as the best option left on the market at the time he signed doesn't mean he was valued highly. 

The QO was declined because Danny had come to the conclusion that TA would be a waste of money if he was playing behind James Posey, because there wouldn't be enough minutes to go around (there was a great Comcast interview with DA in the offseason where he broke it down real scientifically, stating that TA was bad in 3-4 minute stints, but played increasingly better the longer he was on the court...if Posey resigned, TA was only going to get those 3-4 minute stints, so signing Posey and then having TA signed to a QO just didn't make any sense).  So, they declined the QO (knowing TA was likely to accept it), told TA they were going after Posey first and that if they didn't get Posey they were interested in re-signing TA for shorter money.  So, to me at least, it sounds like they valued TA enough to string him along as the 'next best thing' to resigning Posey...which also explains that when Posey signed in NO, the Cs jumped to resign Tony, letting similar players sign for similar money in other locales.  Danny obviously values TA....or he wouldn't be here.