Dwight Howard vs Anthony Davis

[Moranis]

Dwight had a much better supporting cast around him during the prime of his career in Orlando.  Davis had nobody in New Orleans, unless I’m just completely misremembering someone.

Maybe I’m over inflating Davis and under appreciating Dwight but my last impressions of him Orlando as ‘the guy’ left a lot to be desired and it’s mainly bc he just couldn’t deal with Perk when he played us.


….and yes I can accept that Davis problems staying healthy have to be included, but like someone else said, so does Dwight’s cancerous ‘Dwightmare’ personality.   I’ll take injury problems over a cancer.

you are misremembering. I'd take Jrue Holiday over anyone in Orlando and he also had Rondo, Mirotic, Cousins (off and on) during the conference semi finals season. The next season they swapped out Cousins for Julius Randle. 

[Roy H.]

Dwight had a much better supporting cast around him during the prime of his career in Orlando.  Davis had nobody in New Orleans, unless I’m just completely misremembering someone.

Maybe I’m over inflating Davis and under appreciating Dwight but my last impressions of him Orlando as ‘the guy’ left a lot to be desired and it’s mainly bc he just couldn’t deal with Perk when he played us.


….and yes I can accept that Davis problems staying healthy have to be included, but like someone else said, so does Dwight’s cancerous ‘Dwightmare’ personality.   I’ll take injury problems over a cancer.

you are misremembering. I'd take Jrue Holiday over anyone in Orlando and he also had Rondo, Mirotic, Cousins (off and on) during the conference semi finals season. The next season they swapped out Cousins for Julius Randle.

Jrue is a great player, but if I'm recalling right, he got the rod put in his leg in New Orleans, right?  That impacted two seasons, I think.  Boogie got hurt too, right?

I think on average, D12 had better teammates.  Of course, he also made Orlando a legit contender as the clear #1, which Davis never did.

[celticsclay]

Dwight had a much better supporting cast around him during the prime of his career in Orlando.  Davis had nobody in New Orleans, unless I’m just completely misremembering someone.

Maybe I’m over inflating Davis and under appreciating Dwight but my last impressions of him Orlando as ‘the guy’ left a lot to be desired and it’s mainly bc he just couldn’t deal with Perk when he played us.


….and yes I can accept that Davis problems staying healthy have to be included, but like someone else said, so does Dwight’s cancerous ‘Dwightmare’ personality.   I’ll take injury problems over a cancer.

you are misremembering. I'd take Jrue Holiday over anyone in Orlando and he also had Rondo, Mirotic, Cousins (off and on) during the conference semi finals season. The next season they swapped out Cousins for Julius Randle.

Jrue is a great player, but if I'm recalling right, he got the rod put in his leg in New Orleans, right?  That impacted two seasons, I think.  Boogie got hurt too, right?

I think on average, D12 had better teammates.  Of course, he also made Orlando a legit contender as the clear #1, which Davis never did.

Davis started playing with lebron when he was 26 right? We are saying his prime ended before that or what here?

[Moranis]

Dwight had a much better supporting cast around him during the prime of his career in Orlando.  Davis had nobody in New Orleans, unless I’m just completely misremembering someone.

Maybe I’m over inflating Davis and under appreciating Dwight but my last impressions of him Orlando as ‘the guy’ left a lot to be desired and it’s mainly bc he just couldn’t deal with Perk when he played us.


….and yes I can accept that Davis problems staying healthy have to be included, but like someone else said, so does Dwight’s cancerous ‘Dwightmare’ personality.   I’ll take injury problems over a cancer.

you are misremembering. I'd take Jrue Holiday over anyone in Orlando and he also had Rondo, Mirotic, Cousins (off and on) during the conference semi finals season. The next season they swapped out Cousins for Julius Randle.

Jrue is a great player, but if I'm recalling right, he got the rod put in his leg in New Orleans, right?  That impacted two seasons, I think.  Boogie got hurt too, right?

I think on average, D12 had better teammates.  Of course, he also made Orlando a legit contender as the clear #1, which Davis never did.

He did, but by 17-18 he was back to normal and made the first of his 1st Team All Defense.  Not a coincidence that is the only season Davis made it to the 2nd round in New Orleans either. 

I'd take Jrue over Lewis.  Lewis never made any All NBA Teams of any kind and had just 2 all star appearances.  I honestly thought he had more until I looked.  Lewis was a big guy that could shoot lights out, but he wasn't more than that.  Jrue was simply a better player than Lewis was.  And I'd certainly take Randle over Hedo, but frankly a guy like Mirotic was pretty similar to Hedo.  Rondo was still in his prime during that period.  The real difference between the Magic in 2009 and the Pelicans in 2018 was simply Howard was a significantly better player than Davis on both ends of the floor.  And they were both 1st Team All Defense and 1st Team All NBA, with top 5 MVP finishes, and yet Dwight was just so much better (that was the 1st of his DPOY).  It wasn't even health either as Davis played 75 games.  Davis simply has never been a #1.  He is a secondary player that needs a primary player to be successful.  That is part of the reason he fit so well with Lebron, but it is also why as Lebron ages, the Lakers can't maintain their level with Davis as the guy.  Davis just can't be the guy.

[Muzzy66]

Dwight had a much better supporting cast around him during the prime of his career in Orlando.  Davis had nobody in New Orleans, unless I’m just completely misremembering someone.

Maybe I’m over inflating Davis and under appreciating Dwight but my last impressions of him Orlando as ‘the guy’ left a lot to be desired and it’s mainly bc he just couldn’t deal with Perk when he played us.


….and yes I can accept that Davis problems staying healthy have to be included, but like someone else said, so does Dwight’s cancerous ‘Dwightmare’ personality.   I’ll take injury problems over a cancer.

you are misremembering. I'd take Jrue Holiday over anyone in Orlando and he also had Rondo, Mirotic, Cousins (off and on) during the conference semi finals season. The next season they swapped out Cousins for Julius Randle.

Jrue is a great player, but if I'm recalling right, he got the rod put in his leg in New Orleans, right?  That impacted two seasons, I think.  Boogie got hurt too, right?

I think on average, D12 had better teammates.  Of course, he also made Orlando a legit contender as the clear #1, which Davis never did.

He did, but by 17-18 he was back to normal and made the first of his 1st Team All Defense.  Not a coincidence that is the only season Davis made it to the 2nd round in New Orleans either. 

I'd take Jrue over Lewis.  Lewis never made any All NBA Teams of any kind and had just 2 all star appearances.  I honestly thought he had more until I looked.  Lewis was a big guy that could shoot lights out, but he wasn't more than that.  Jrue was simply a better player than Lewis was.  And I'd certainly take Randle over Hedo, but frankly a guy like Mirotic was pretty similar to Hedo.  Rondo was still in his prime during that period.  The real difference between the Magic in 2009 and the Pelicans in 2018 was simply Howard was a significantly better player than Davis on both ends of the floor.  And they were both 1st Team All Defense and 1st Team All NBA, with top 5 MVP finishes, and yet Dwight was just so much better (that was the 1st of his DPOY).  It wasn't even health either as Davis played 75 games.  Davis simply has never been a #1.  He is a secondary player that needs a primary player to be successful.  That is part of the reason he fit so well with Lebron, but it is also why as Lebron ages, the Lakers can't maintain their level with Davis as the guy.  Davis just can't be the guy.

I agree.

I think that Anthony Davis is unquestionably a lot more skilled than Dwight ever was, but Dwight was just a more impactful player on both ends. Dwight was almost like a poor-man's Shaq in terms of how physically dominant he was.  He was a true physical specimen - just stronger, longer, faster and more athletic than anybody else he came up again.  And while he wasn't the most skilled guy in the world - like Shaq - he didn't need to be - he was very, very good at the things he needed to be very, very good at.

I honestly think if you took prime Dwight now and put him up against Embiid, Dwight would dominate. 

[Who]

On the subject of AD's teammatess vs Dwight's teammates, there was a huge difference in the value of each team's benches. New Orleans typically did not fill out their bench. They had 4-6 players and no depth. Orlando had some of the best benches in the league during Dwight's run to the Finals.

I use a basic idea that a great bench is worth about 10 wins while a terrible bench costs you about 10 wins. This is against the average bench in the league. A middle of the pack bench. So the swing can be as large as 20 wins depending on whether you have a great bench or a terrible bench.

Gortat was fantastic for Orlando backing up Dwight Howard. They had Mikael Pietrus who was an elite 3+D bench winger. They had JJ Redick. Then you had good end of bench guys like Anthony Johnson, Tony Battie, Adonal Foyle. In other seasons they had Ryan Anderson off the bench as high end bench talent. Brandon Bass.

Those AD New Orleans teams could have been 50+ win teams when they had their best rosters if they had just have given him a quality bench. They never did.

[Who]

That 2018 Pelicans team

C: Anthony Davis, 35yo Emeka Okafor
F: Mirotic, Dante Cunningham
G: Jrue, Darius Miller, Solomon Hill
G: E Moore, Ian Clark, Jordan Crawford
G: Rondo, 35yo Jameer Nelson

They also had Cousins who got hurt midway through the season. They were 27-21 with him and 21-20 without him. They also won a playoff series without Cousins. The only year they won a playoff series with AD there. This was their best team.

It also leaves you wondering how much better of a team could they have fielded if they paired AD with someone who fitted his game better than Cousins did as they got in each other's way a fair bit.

Anyway, back to the bench:

You can see they had to play Jrue Holiday at SF because they had no wings with any quality. They had to start Etwaun Moore because he was their next best perimeter player after Jrue and Rondo. So nowhere near the same quality of talent in role players that Dwight was getting in Orlando.

You look at the bench. Jameer Nelson was completely cooked at this stage of his career. Neither Ian Clark or Jordan Crawford were worth much of anything. Neither was Darius Miller. Solomon Hill was a good defender with zero offense. Dante Cunningham was a high end 3rd string PF to a below average backup PF. Emeka Okafor was completely cooked as well.

So clearly this is one of the worst benches if not the worst bench in the leagues. Certainly nowhere near what you expect from a playoff team. More like what you would find on a 20 win team that is intentionally tanking but refusing to fill out their roster.

The 2009 Magic team

C: Dwight, Gortat, Foyle
F: Rashard, Battie
F: Hedo, Pietrus
G: C Lee, Redick
G: Rafer, A Johnson, (Jameer)

I do not know whether to include Jameer or not. The team were rolling prior to him getting hurt. They only got Rafer because Jameer was hurt. Jameer did come back for the Finals but missed the rest of their playoff run. He did not play well after returning.

Anyway, to the bench:

Gortat was establishing himself as the best backup center in the league this season. In two year's time when he was traded, he would go on to establish himself as a top 15 center in the entire NBA. He was a brilliant bench player. Pietrus was one of the best 3+D backup wings in the league. JJ Redick had just started to establish himself as a quality rotation player in the NBA. He had improved his defense enough to where he was now a good NBA player. An elite shooter with passable D.

Anthony Johnson was a wily vet middle of the road backup PG. Tony Battie and Adonal Foyle where coming to the end of their careers but were fine end of bench 3rd string caliber bigs.

This team did lack a true backup PF. Other than that every role was filled by a capable role player and most by high end role players.

Summary

I find it hard to judge what AD could have done as a franchise player because his team was so badly mismanaged throughout his time in New Orleans.

Dwight on the other hand had a great supporting cast. He had a Big Four setup with 3 near All-Stars placed around him and a superb supporting cast behind them. One of the best supporting casts in the league.

It is apples to oranges.

[celticsclay]

That 2018 Pelicans team

C: Anthony Davis, 35yo Emeka Okafor
F: Mirotic, Dante Cunningham
G: Jrue, Darius Miller, Solomon Hill
G: E Moore, Ian Clark, Jordan Crawford
G: Rondo, 35yo Jameer Nelson

They also had Cousins who got hurt midway through the season. They were 27-21 with him and 21-20 without him. They also won a playoff series without Cousins. The only year they won a playoff series with AD there. This was their best team.

It also leaves you wondering how much better of a team could they have fielded if they paired AD with someone who fitted his game better than Cousins did as they got in each other's way a fair bit.

Anyway, back to the bench:

You can see they had to play Jrue Holiday at SF because they had no wings with any quality. They had to start Etwaun Moore because he was their next best perimeter player after Jrue and Rondo. So nowhere near the same quality of talent in role players that Dwight was getting in Orlando.

You look at the bench. Jameer Nelson was completely cooked at this stage of his career. Neither Ian Clark or Jordan Crawford were worth much of anything. Neither was Darius Miller. Solomon Hill was a good defender with zero offense. Dante Cunningham was a high end 3rd string PF to a below average backup PF. Emeka Okafor was completely cooked as well.

So clearly this is one of the worst benches if not the worst bench in the leagues. Certainly nowhere near what you expect from a playoff team. More like what you would find on a 20 win team that is intentionally tanking but refusing to fill out their roster.

The 2009 Magic team

C: Dwight, Gortat, Foyle
F: Rashard, Battie
F: Hedo, Pietrus
G: C Lee, Redick
G: Rafer, A Johnson, (Jameer)

I do not know whether to include Jameer or not. The team were rolling prior to him getting hurt. They only got Rafer because Jameer was hurt. Jameer did come back for the Finals but missed the rest of their playoff run. He did not play well after returning.

Anyway, to the bench:

Gortat was establishing himself as the best backup center in the league this season. In two year's time when he was traded, he would go on to establish himself as a top 15 center in the entire NBA. He was a brilliant bench player. Pietrus was one of the best 3+D backup wings in the league. JJ Redick had just started to establish himself as a quality rotation player in the NBA. He had improved his defense enough to where he was now a good NBA player. An elite shooter with passable D.

Anthony Johnson was a wily vet middle of the road backup PG. Tony Battie and Adonal Foyle where coming to the end of their careers but were fine end of bench 3rd string caliber bigs.

This team did lack a true backup PF. Other than that every role was filled by a capable role player and most by high end role players.

Summary

I find it hard to judge what AD could have done as a franchise player because his team was so badly mismanaged throughout his time in New Orleans.

Dwight on the other hand had a great supporting cast. He had a Big Four setup with 3 near All-Stars placed around him and a superb supporting cast behind them. One of the best supporting casts in the league.

It is apples to oranges.

This objectively seems pretty biased towards Orlando. For one, if you are going to omit Cousins, omit Nelson. Secondly, Rafer Alston was terrible. He shot 41% from the field and 31% from 3 while still chucking up 10 shots in 29 minutes. He was out of the league shortly after this and was probably the worst starting point guard in the league. Rondo, even in a down season, was much better than this. Hedo Turkolu is also being a bit overrated here. He was never an all-star in his career. He averaged 17, 5 and 5 this year while shooting 41% from the field and 35% from 3. It is a solid role player, but quite a bit away from "near all-star" and very similar to Mirotic who average 14 and 8 with similar shooting splits. I think Jrue was the second-best player on either team if we don't include Cousins and these teams are quite comparable (Rashard Lewis is certainly fair as second best player also, but I think defense was underrated back then for things like all-star games and Holiday had slightly better numbers with much better defense). Both had some nice players and both had some flaws, but certainly not apples to oranges. 

[bdm860]

I think you also can't ignore personality. Howard has been a prickly player to play with and coach.

I'd go with Davis as well.

Working against Dwight:  he's a dink that opponents, teammates and coaches have hated.

Do you guys think any of this could be on this injuries?  And/or maybe the the game moving away from a low post presence?

Sure he had the Van Gundy issue and trade demands in Orlando (which is not that dissimilar from Davis's exit from New Orleans), but the other stops, is it possible that's Dwight failing to adjust to no longer being a force?  I don't recall Dwight's teammates having issues with him in Orlando (other than the trade demand of course).

When he was in his prime in Orlando, other stars wanted to team up with him, like Chris Paul and Deron Williams, maybe Carmelo IIRC.  So I don't know if he was necessarily a problem player then.  It's when the injuries happened, and he was no longer 1A but still wanted to be 1A that the problems started because Dwight couldn't/wouldn't adapt.

Also the league changed. 
2008-2012 (Prime Dwight), NBA team average 3pa was between 18.0 and 18.4 per game.
2014 (last All-Star year), that increased to 21.5 per game.
2017 (when teams started dumping him after a year), it was 27.0 per game.
2022 (last season in league) it was 35.2.

Dwight wanting to play like it's 2009 in the Steph Curry 3ball era certainly didn't help him out.


Dwight Howard in his prime = star player that asked for his coach to be fired (which is nothing new for stars), any team would trade for him, other players wanted to play with, and that other players adapt their game to.

Dwight Howard past his prime = a player that thinks he's still a star and that teams should cater to, that teams (and teammates) quickly grow tired of, and can't adapt his game to others.


Judge prime Dwight by prime Dwight's reputation.  Don't judge prime Dwight by past-his-prime Dwight's reputation.

[celticsclay]

I think you also can't ignore personality. Howard has been a prickly player to play with and coach.

I'd go with Davis as well.

Working against Dwight:  he's a dink that opponents, teammates and coaches have hated.

Do you guys think any of this could be on this injuries?  And/or maybe the the game moving away from a low post presence?

Sure he had the Van Gundy issue and trade demands in Orlando (which is not that dissimilar from Davis's exit from New Orleans), but the other stops, is it possible that's Dwight failing to adjust to no longer being a force?  I don't recall Dwight's teammates having issues with him in Orlando (other than the trade demand of course).

When he was in his prime in Orlando, other stars wanted to team up with him, like Chris Paul and Deron Williams, maybe Carmelo IIRC.  So I don't know if he was necessarily a problem player then.  It's when the injuries happened, and he was no longer 1A but still wanted to be 1A that the problems started because Dwight couldn't/wouldn't adapt.

Also the league changed. 
2008-2012 (Prime Dwight), NBA team average 3pa was between 18.0 and 18.4 per game.
2014 (last All-Star year), that increased to 21.5 per game.
2017 (when teams started dumping him after a year), it was 27.0 per game.
2022 (last season in league) it was 35.2.

Dwight wanting to play like it's 2009 in the Steph Curry 3ball era certainly didn't help him out.


Dwight Howard in his prime = star player that asked for his coach to be fired (which is nothing new for stars), any team would trade for him, other players wanted to play with, and that other players adapt their game to.

Dwight Howard past his prime = a player that thinks he's still a star and that teams should cater to, that teams (and teammates) quickly grow tired of, and can't adapt his game to others.


Judge prime Dwight by prime Dwight's reputation.  Don't judge prime Dwight by past-his-prime Dwight's reputation.

Some have also speculated that Howard’s sexual preferences may have impacted his place in the league his final years in the league. I’m not saying this to argue he wasn’t annoying or a jerk at times but I don’t think the rumors out there that got louder as his career went on did him any favors either and I do think nba locker rooms are not super progressive regarding this kind of thing or we would have a few out players.